Daisy chain inverters?

[edexlab]

I've just seen an install fitted 2 years ago and I'm interested in how this is G83 compliant! information regarding design etc is being forwarded to me later, but what they've done seems like madness/sheer incompetence to me

I'm going to call the company on clients behalf and hope they sort it as its a shambles this will be the 5th return visit from this firm

There are 2x Aurora 3000 inverters and one 3600, (not sure if Tl's or not i'll be checking later) each has its own Rcd and Mcb fed via 4 wy CU next to the inverters and the single phase supply is daisy chaining across each CU Rcd top terminals

System has worked without issues but recently the Rcd covering the 3600 is tripping out so customer called me in to have a look,

Other than what I've already mentioned above the cable feeding these has no isolation or relevant ocpd and is dogged into the incoming side of the DB main isolator , they've fitted 2 AC isolators next to each inverter and the supply goes through the Rcd (also daisy chained to the next Cu) and Mcb then through the meter and then to the first Ac Isolator and then the 2nd????

Also they have Dc cables in the same 50x50 trunking which I know is debatable re the insulation rating but something I'd not do.

9 feet away is the mains incomer with a 3 phase supply! it is such an easy job to have done better I'm staggered!

 

[SolarCity]

Do you have any pictures. I'm struggling to picture this.

 

[TedM]

If it is a 3-phase supply and the embedded generation is not balanced across the phases then that fails G83 straight away - unless there is some dispensation from the DNO but I would be surprised by that.

 

[edexlab]

I'm waiting for the design /system details and electrical certs from the client as she has hid them away somewhere, but my thoughts were

a) Install doesn't comply with G83, Mcs, Bs7671 and probably anything else you could think of.

b) Is she therefore at any risk of losing the tariff rate as it could be argued this system was never installed according to the requirements , leaving her to pursue the Installer for loss of revenue etc
It actually makes me mad as she paid good money from a so called reputable firm for this

I do have pictures and will post them this weekend, but its difficult to see exactly what's going on with the inverters supply (daisychained) , I tested the continuity as just looking and tugging wires became confusing very quickly
but you'll be able to see the doubling up of conductors in fhe Rcd terminals etc

 

[Worcester]

Are you sure they're not using a single phase board as a manually re-wired three phase board?

 

[edexlab]

No the existing main Db is definitely a standard 3 phase Db 4 pole main switch
As I said before the single line supply to the pv db's tapped off the meter side of the main switch as there were no spare ways available and a single phase db next to it with old type 2 mcb's and 2 spare ways, I accept that its hard to source these mcb's but even so they'd still be short one way.

Really simple job to have done properly by splitting the tails via henley blocks to feed a one way 3 phase db with an Mcb/circuit for each Inverter

Out of curiosity do you mean a single phase type enclosure with the removable busbars x 3 which sit together within the busbar guard in the same layout as a single phase board ?

I have used Schneider and I think it was Chint but these are supplied like this as 1 or 2 way 3 phase db's and not modified by an installer
Or are you talking about something someone has modified?

(Occasionally here you do come across a 3 wire single phase supply to a 3 phase board, the ones I've seen had nothing altered within the board they just used the red and yellow mcb ways only and labelled it as such)

 

[edexlab]

I've had a look for this company and they are a "National company" the type that tells its customers not to trust small companies
They have poor feedback due to bad installs , hard sell tactics and very poor customer service and the directors are/were? the owners of a company which did the same but with a different product which apparently got national press coverage

 

[Earthstore]

So who are they?

 

[edexlab]

If it is a 3-phase supply and the embedded generation is not balanced across the phases then that fails G83 straight away - unless there is some dispensation from the DNO but I would be surprised by that.

I've just spoken to the customer re paperwork of this job and She says She'll get it to me soon, but the interesting thing is they have an MCS Cert for each inverter?

I told her what I wanted to see ie MCS Cert , and she said "Oh yes I've got 3 one for each inverter"
Apparently when they complained to the Installer about the RCD tripping She was told

"No worries that's why we put 3 inverters in, in case one stopped working, You'd still have 2 more"

I have tried to post pics but having problems!

 

[Meggerman]

As you have already said it is never going be acceptable under G83 with all on one phase. How will FIT payments work with 3 MCS certs??

 

[whinmoor]

"No worries that's why we put 3 inverters in, in case one stopped working, You'd still have 2 more"

LOL - and don't worry if your car has a puncture - it'll be fine because the other three wheels are fine.

 

[TedM]

Try and get a copy of the G83 paperwork if the client has a copy. Be interesting to see how that has been filled in.

 

[SibertSolar]

The mind boggles!

 

[edexlab]

LOL - and don't worry if your car has a puncture - it'll be fine because the other three wheels are fine.

yeah i said
"we all keep 3 cars on the drive for the same reason!"

 

[edexlab]

Inverters

 

[edexlab]

Difficult to see here, Incoming Single phase direct to Rcd and then looped off to next CU along

 

[edexlab]

Swa not glanded one core chopped Black conductor/ earth taken to Isolator

 

[edexlab]

SWA rhs Line to incoming side of main switch

 

[edexlab]

Inverters are 9 ft away directly above ( space is not an issue)

 

[edexlab]

Nice label but I think the warning part could be clearer

 

[TedM]

Assuming this has been done under G83 and if this is all on one phase then the DNO could turn up anytime and disconnect it all. Goodbye FiTs.

Were you able to get a copy of any G83 paperwork from the owner?

 

[edexlab]

I'm waiting for it still, they're old fashioned and are getting a friend to come and scan docs to send to me.

 

[edexlab]

Well I've just received the promised paperwork, consisting of 3 MCS certs and the original copy of the salesmans sign up form stating a 9.8 kw system and no other details,

I'm going to a job nearby later and plan to visit them as surely they must have more documentation than this? but they are sure this is all they've had?

2nd rough job /badly planned/installed I've seen in 2 mths both with a distinct lack of paperwork/handover packs/schematics/Customer support etc

I do feel for the MCS accredited members who jump through the Scheme hoops like trained sealions , while these monkeys are out there earning good money and doing half a job badly!

With regards to my customers situation any suggestions on what, if any measures they can pursue to get this rectified, should this installer refuse to do anything (I'm calling them today) as everything I read about Real, Rega, Mcs suggests they're a waste of time!

Also can I contact the DNO to find out how this system is registered , ie what they have actually allowed etc?
Any suggestions would be appreciated!

 

[edexlab]

Just thought of something else
installed 17,10,11
9.8 kw system 3 sp inverters sharp 245 panels , minimal cable runs longest dc is 20 m ac 9 m
Any thoughts on a rough price it should have cost the customer?

 

[Earthstore]

Well, my advice would be get them to contact the installer to get them to sort it out, mind you If it was left in that state I would not hold my breath for too long.

As to all the other avenues that are supposedly available for the customer, well, they might as well piddle into the wind, they will just get frustrated being sent around in circles.

You have seen the job, it does not look too difficult to sort it all out properly and split the system over the 3 phases, that is if it was installed under G83 that is, also how is the supply used at the property, do they use 3 phases or just the one?
If you are happy to do so, offer to sort it out properly for them, for a price of course, but make it clear that you are not guarantying the system for any future faults.

If you do contact the DNO, you do stand a risk of them coming to look at it which could end in disaster, they could shut it down and remove FITs too..

Let the customer decide, but point these things out to them.

 

[edexlab]

Customer asked me to contact the DNO today as they're concerned about having the fit payments removed further down the line and don't want to be liable for a larger amount I made them aware what this could mean regarding being disconnected, but they were ok as they said it would only be a matter of time before it came to light anyway and they'd rather do it while the offending company was still around
so made some enquiries today

Scottish power say they have no application for > 16 A Pv system on file nor any commissioning notification for this address, they said they'll accept it if its reconfigured to one inverter per phase, or they can reapply for a single phase system with the 3 inverters subject to network assessment

As far as they're concerned its a potentially dangerous situation but surprisingly the guy said all they could do is demand its switched off and failing that disconnect the supply, he didn't seem to think they would go after the installer in any way

MCS are equally toothless and will only threaten removal from register, but are going to look into this, because this firm is no longer MCS registered yet they are still displaying the logo on the website , and are installing as their salesman confirmed
it appears this company operates under several different company names from the same office, they couldn't tell me if the company has been removed involuntarily as this is down to the assessment body (Elecsa) who I'm going to speak to tomorrow

They have the 3 systems down as separate installs and this is probably why there was no mpan number on the MCS certs

I asked the MCS person what the idea behind MCS was, "Regulation of the Pv industry to give consumer confidence etc" was the reply, "Hardly working is it"

Although they said they would investigate the associated companies/ trading names and directors to see if they are acting unscrupulously etc I doubt they'll be doing anything soon if ever!

I'm ringing REA. tomorrow to see if the guarantee is actually real , but I'm not holding my breath on this one

 

[edexlab]

I've suggested to them that they should email the company several times and ask for this situation to be rectified at their expense by an installer chosen by the customer, because of lack of confidence in the firm

On one of five visits to sort out the roof one of this companies electricians arrived and looked at the system and refused to touch it and spent 2 days helping the roofers replace slates (165 replaced in total) when he was there to correct some of the electrical work

Failing this I think there's plenty of evidence showing bad workmanship, a system not fit for purpose, potentially fraudulent selling of nonexistent insurance policies etc for Trading standards to act on.

 

[The Solar King]

My only comment is what a bunch of self-abuse merchants. At a time where properly installed kit is virtually 'plug and play' this is unforgivable - maybe that is half the problem.

 

[SPARTYKUS]

Sounds like the other side of the leccy industry with scams, unenforced toothless and blinkered.

 

[oldsalty]

Sounds like the other side of the leccy industry with scams, unenforced toothless and blinkered.

Relative of mine had similar situation with a Gas Registered Engineer in South Wales, appalling combi boiler job done and no Building Control request submitted by the engineer. After a year of GSR saying they couldn't do anything about it, except remove him from the Register, but they weren't likely to do that because that meant they would lose his annual registration fee. Had it checked over by a local gas fitter to make sure it was actually gas safe and will worry about certification if and when he needs to sell the house. Government schemes established more to enrich their colleagues than actually work to protect the consumer! What is said here about the toothlessness of the electricity registration boards does not surprise me at all.

 

[edexlab]

Just had an update from the customer
The installing firm that blanked my calls have sent someone to site to
"Confirm I'm talking rubbish", their words to the customer
the guy phoned me to find out what I was concerned about , customer said he left unimpressed with the job but apparently he's going to return and put things right

I was pleased that the firm were going to correct things for the customer...

Until I had a call from the MCS , she said they'd tracked down the company and given them the good news that unless things were put right, they would be suspended from the register pending an investigation into all complaints received
which obviously got them moving!