domestic circuit testing and regulations

[officer dibble]

I have just had a kitchen extension plus one living room built which will require wiring. In the original house there is a wire-fused consumer unit (no rcds) and an additional one for the last extension built in the 80's(no rcd but mcbs). My builder has advised me to have a single modern consumer unit fitted to service the entire house and extensions. My problem is that the original house was built in the 1960's and does not conform to modern regulations.It has ring mains and pvc cable but in grey sheathed black and red cable and the sockets don't have earth sleeves ( I could have all the sockets replaced and this remedied though). I don't know whether it will require completely rewiring to meet modern regulations even though the wiring "seems" fine.The 80s CU could service the new extension at by extending the ring mains and lighting circuit. I need advice on whether to go for a single modern consumer unit
or
add an rcd and mcbs to the 60's CU and add a separate rcd to the 80's CU which will serve the newest extension as well and have this CU tested for IET compliance
or
upgrade as mentioned before but one rcd for both existing CUs' (which needs doing anyway for safety reasons) but have yet another CU fitted which will only service the newest extension but is certain to pass all current IET regulations.
I don't want to fall foul of modern regulations and pay for a complete house rewire as the existing circuits are still servicable and should have passed regulations at the time of installation.
I would welcome any advice.

 

[Octopus]

Get an independent sparky or 2 round and see what they suggest.

Generally builders do not know enough about electrics except to baffle unsuspecting customers

 

[malcolmsanford]

First thing to get a grip of here is the fact that the regulations are not retrospective and so existing installations that are still safe and serviceable are not required to adhere to the new regulations.

What an electrician will do is test your existing installation and tell you what is wrong, if anything is and advise accordingly.

So now we have established this what my advice would be. Though your system is old, it may still be in very good condition, and the electrician that will test this will prove either way. I would recommend that just for continuity it would be better to have the one single CU, rather that an hodge podge of 2 to 3.

Then the safety aspect you will have with all your circuits having the additional protection by RCDs is a plus as well

 

[tony mc]

Depending when in the 60's it was wired you may not have earths in the lighting circuits but all your sockets should have a earth which may or may not be sleeved green or green & yellow.

 

[EastAnglian]

First thing to get a grip of here is the fact that the regulations are not retrospective and so existing installations that are still safe and serviceable are not required to adhere to the new regulations.

With one important exception ..... if your earthing and main bonding cables are not compliant with today's regulations these will need to be upgraded as part of the 'new' work.

My recommendation is that you commission an Electrical Installation Condition Report on the existing installation. This will identify any potentially dangerous conditions in addition to any non-compliances with the current regs. This then gives you the opportunity to put in place a programme of improvements where your primary aim should be to fix potentially dangerous conditions (which will have a C1 or C2 code on the EICR) and then give consideration to the merit of complying with current regulations on a case by case basis (which will be identified as C3 or even no code on an EICR).

To achieve this you will need to engage a trust-worthy and experienced electrician, not somebody who is just interested in follow-on work. A key qualification to check for is the City & Guilds 2391-10 "Electrical Inspection and Testing" Level 3 certificate or an equivalent.

Its good to see you asking the questions that you have, you are on the right track!

 

[malcolmsanford]

Thank you for pointing this out EA, but all new work has to be compliant with the new regulations be it earthing, bonding or sockets etc

If you found a lighting circuit wired in 1.00mm on an existing installation with a 32 amp protective device would you on a CU change supply that circuit with a new 32amp device, I don't think so.

The same with Earthing and bonding if it requires upgrading then you have to upgrade it, but remember that regulation 132.16 states that it "Shall be Adequate" for the protective measure applied, so often it may not be required to upgrade.

 

[EastAnglian]

Yes indeed, as you say.

Although not available as PDF download unfortunately I keep a stock of these pamphlets in my van as it helps to explain why I'm asking where the water stop-cock is when I've been called in to quote to put some new lights in!

News : Electrical Safety Council

 

[officer dibble]

Yes indeed, as you say.

Although not available as PDF download unfortunately I keep a stock of these pamphlets in my van as it helps to explain why I'm asking where the water stop-cock is when I've been called in to quote to put some new lights in!

Where could obtain a pamphlet?

 

[Octopus]

try :

http://www.esc.org.uk/fileadmin/use...s/Earthing___Bonding-_web_ready-_13-09-12.pdf

 

[tony mc]

Have a look at this

Electrical Safety Leaflets : Electrical Safety Council

 

[malcolmsanford]

Electrical Safety Advice at Home & Work : Electrical Safety Council

 

[EastAnglian]

Oh, well done, the page I found just had an e-mail address to request printed copies:

[email protected]

PDF now downloaded and stored to be sent with appropriate quotes.

 

[officer dibble]

With one important exception ..... if your earthing and main bonding cables are not compliant with today's regulations these will need to be upgraded as part of the 'new' work.

My recommendation is that you commission an Electrical Installation Condition Report on the existing installation. This will identify any potentially dangerous conditions in addition to any non-compliances with the current regs. This then gives you the opportunity to put in place a programme of improvements where your primary aim should be to fix potentially dangerous conditions (which will have a C1 or C2 code on the EICR) and then give consideration to the merit of complying with current regulations on a case by case basis (which will be identified as C3 or even no code on an EICR).

To achieve this you will need to engage a trust-worthy and experienced electrician, not somebody who is just interested in follow-on work. A key qualification to check for is the City & Guilds 2391-10 "Electrical Inspection and Testing" Level 3 certificate or an equivalent.

Its good to see you asking the questions that you have, you are on the right track!

What would I expect to pay (approx) for a periodic inspection. The house a 5 bedroom detached house with 6 wire fuses CU and a 4 rcd CU.

 

[EastAnglian]

Its a day's work, I would charge £190. Electricians round your way may charge more or less of course!

Beware if you get quoted significantly lower than this. 10 circuits in a 5 bedroomed house is a day's work for one person doing the job properly IMO. If somebody tells you it can be done in 3 or 4 hours do check what you are really getting!

 

[officer dibble]

First thing to get a grip of here is the fact that the regulations are not retrospective and so existing installations that are still safe and serviceable are not required to adhere to the new regulations.

What an electrician will do is test your existing installation and tell you what is wrong, if anything is and advise accordingly.

So now we have established this what my advice would be. Though your system is old, it may still be in very good condition, and the electrician that will test this will prove either way. I would recommend that just for continuity it would be better to have the one single CU, rather that an hodge podge of 2 to 3.

Then the safety aspect you will have with all your circuits having the additional protection by RCDs is a plus as well

If an old installation such as mine has been modified say by the addition of a spur to the ring main at some point, what impact does this have on compliance

 

[Des 56]

If any modifications have been made,they should have been done in such a way as to comply with the regs at the time of installation

However,you and I know that alterations are often done by the householder or the cheap jobber who may know nothing of doing the job in such a way as to prevent danger,both to property via a fire, or shock to a person using the installation
That's because in their mind,if something works,"Hey what more could there be to consider,it works,don't it"

When you have an inspection,if the Guy doing the inspection is an electrician who is competent and qualified to carry out this work (many are not)then anything that is either dangerous or a fire hazzard will be highlighted

If that were the case,would you not be more concerned that you have become aware that part of the installation has been identified and brought to your attention rather than a satisfactory signature for a possible hazzardous installation by a numpty inspector giving a rouge satisfactory signature on a bit of useless paper
Remember to be aware,there are many large national companies and some small companies who are registered scheme members mainly, doing pretend inspections who will provide this service at very cheap rates,so beware of large firms doing inspections and extra cheap others

Do not be over pessimistic about older parts of the installation.safe wiring was around long before the present edition of the regulations

Get your inspection done,by an individual who can produce evidence of his own competence and don't be suckered in by scheme membership where the person doing the inspection may be well short of being competent

The probability is that the existing installation,if it has not had too much potching done,may surprise you regards its safe continued use

 

[malcolmsanford]

If an old installation such as mine has been modified say by the addition of a spur to the ring main at some point, what impact does this have on compliance

Des56 eloquently summed up the situation in post # 16 and to be honest there is not more that can be added.

I can only really reiterate that there are many installation in the UK that are 50-60 yrs old and have been added to over their life span.

It is so difficult for a customer to identify, in any trade, who is good who is bad. I would like Des advised, that to choose someone that is competent I always felt that the more professional they are and the more they explained tings to someone in simple terms meant they had a fair grasp on their profession.

As for this hypothetical spur off of an existing RFC, the tester will use his knowledge and expertise to advise you if it is safe for continued use, and that is what an Electrical Installation Condition Report is, it is to ascertain if your installation is safe, not that it fails the current regulations because logically any installation pre 2008 will most likely not come up to the current regulations, but it does not mean it is unsatisfactory or unsafe