domestic works, to P on not to P

[john.irvine]

i would suggest you have a chat with your local council
it doesnt matter how qualified you are notifiable work is notifiable work whoever does it.
i too am fully qualified 2391, 17th blah blah but still have to pay the £425 each year to niceic to operate within the law

The last time I did domestic work was last year, so I did contact my buildings dept and asked, besides a copy of my qualifications and my inspection and rest results of the work carried out is there any thing else you need such a payment.

The answer was NO, there’s is no payment required, as we do not need to check anything, your qualifications are enough to show you are a competent person to carry out the work, your information goes on file and held here at the Building Dept.

I found out about this from the tutor on the 17th edition course.
He ran a business, which included domestic work and he did not have part P.
He said just get to know some one at your buildings dept, let them know of the work your doing then send them your inspection and test results, if your qualified you don’t realy need Part P.
And he was right.

 

[sparks1234]

Re: mains change

The last time I did domestic work was last year, so I did contact my buildings dept and asked, besides a copy of my qualifications and my inspection and rest results of the work carried out is there any thing else you need such a payment.

The answer was NO, there’s is no payment required, as we do not need to check anything, your qualifications are enough to show you are a competent person to carry out the work, your information goes on file and held here at the Building Dept.

I found out about this from the tutor on the 17th edition course.
He ran a business, which included domestic work and he did not have part P.
He said just get to know some one at your buildings dept, let them know of the work your doing then send them your inspection and test results, if your qualified you don’t realy need Part P.
And he was right.

Cant see why we are all paying our dues then, seems a bit questionable to me.

 

[john.irvine]

Re: mains change

Cant see why we are all paying our dues then, seems a bit questionable to me.

Personaly I think Part P was set up to try and stop the cowboys operating, and to get the plumbers and kitchen fitters compentant to fit and connect the electrics that came into there fields of work.
Therefore, the 4 or 5 organisations recognised by the government to run Part P have seen to it that every one is convinced they need to have it to work in the domestic market.
As a means of getting work, beloning to one of them would carry some weight with the general public, who they have also convinced, so in an advert, or on your van, you would be more likely to get work. How ever, word of mouth from a job well done is always the best advert.

 

[sparks1234]

Re: mains change

4​

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​

(p) If I want to underpin all or part of the foundations to my
building, will the Building Regulations apply?​

YES​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

– the regulations specifically define this as ‘Building Work’.
The appropriate requirements will be applied so as to ensure
that the underpinning will stabilise the movement of the building.
Particular regard will need to be given to the effect on any
sewers and drains near the work (see paragraph 3.3).​

(q) If I want to install or replace electric wiring, will the Building
Regulations apply?​

YES​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

– the Building Regulations apply to all electrical work in
dwellings. Electrical work involving fixed wiring and fixed appliances
should be acceptably safe whoever undertakes it. This can be
achieved by following the recommendations for design, installation,
inspection, testing and certification in BS 7671: 2001 ‘Requirements
for Electrical Installations – IEE Wiring Regulations’ (see Annex B:
‘Sources of information’).
You only need involve a Building Control Service* for certain
riskier 'notifiable' jobs, but if you employ a registered installer
with the relevant competencies to carry out the work, such
involvement will not be necessary (see Annex B for schemes of
registered installers). Notifiable works include new circuits back
to the consumer unit and additions or alterations to existing
circuits in kitchens, bathrooms and outdoors.Works that are not
notifiable include repairs, replacements and maintenance; and
additions or alterations to existing circuits outside of kitchens
and bathrooms. If you are not sure whether work is notifiable,
you should check with your Building Control Service.
If you use a registered installer for notifiable work, the registration
scheme operator will send you a Building Regulations compliance
certificate when the work is complete. If you use a qualified but
unregistered installer for notifiable work, or do the work yourself,​

*​

​

​

​

​

See paragraph 4.2(i)​

the Building Control Service will inspect the work to check
that it complies with the Building Regulations before issuing a
completion certificate, if one was requested (see paragraph 5.22).
A qualified installer, regardless of whether he/she is registered or
not, should give you a signed BS 7671 electrical safety certificate
for all types of electrical work. The registration scheme operators
can advise you whether an installer is registered for the work you
wish them to do, or you may be able to check that information​

on their website (see Annex B: 'Sources of information').

Think you are taking a risk myself!!! but I guess thats up to you

 

[john.irvine]

Re: mains change

4​

(p) If I want to underpin all or part of the foundations to my​

building, will the Building Regulations apply?​

YES

– the regulations specifically define this as ‘Building Work’.

The appropriate requirements will be applied so as to ensure
that the underpinning will stabilise the movement of the building.
Particular regard will need to be given to the effect on any
sewers and drains near the work (see paragraph 3.3).
​

​

(q) If I want to install or replace electric wiring, will the Building
Regulations apply?
YES ​

​

– the Building Regulations apply to all electrical work in

dwellings. Electrical work involving fixed wiring and fixed appliances
should be acceptably safe whoever undertakes it. This can be
achieved by following the recommendations for design, installation,
inspection, testing and certification in BS 7671: 2001 ‘Requirements
for Electrical Installations – IEE Wiring Regulations’ (see Annex B:
‘Sources of information’).
You only need involve a Building Control Service​

​

* for certain

riskier 'notifiable' jobs, but if you employ a registered installer
with the relevant competencies to carry out the work, such
involvement will not be necessary (see Annex B for schemes of
registered installers). Notifiable works include new circuits back
to the consumer unit and additions or alterations to existing
circuits in kitchens, bathrooms and outdoors.Works that are not
notifiable include repairs, replacements and maintenance; and
additions or alterations to existing circuits outside of kitchens
and bathrooms. If you are not sure whether work is notifiable,
you should check with your Building Control Service.
If you use a registered installer for notifiable work, the registration
scheme operator will send you a Building Regulations compliance
certificate when the work is complete. If you use a qualified but
unregistered installer for notifiable work, or do the work yourself,
​

​

* ​

​

See paragraph 4.2(i)

​

​

the Building Control Service will inspect the work to check
that it complies with the Building Regulations before issuing a
completion certificate, if one was requested (see paragraph 5.22).
A qualified installer, regardless of whether he/she is registered or
not, should give you a signed BS 7671 electrical safety certificate
for all types of electrical work. The registration scheme operators
can advise you whether an installer is registered for the work you
wish them to do, or you may be able to check that information​

on their website (see Annex B: 'Sources of information').

Think you are taking a risk myself!!! but I guess thats up to you
​

I have to fill out and Signe four serial numbered sheets of BS 7671 electrical safety certificates for every instalation I have designed, constructed, inspected and tested at work, whats the differance in doing the same in the domestic field.
​

 

[sparks1234]

Re: mains change

I'm sure you also have a driving licence but would you go out driving if you didn't??

At the end of the day, if it all goes pear shaped you only have yourself to blame, there a lot of guys on here paying their dues to the self certification schemes and doing it all legally, why should you be any different?

The difference is that at work the installation is not covered by Part P, and thats the whole point!!

 

[andyb]

Re: mains change

Can only give you the info that has come from the ECA and now looks like the IEE

And BS7671

522.6.7, I think that backs you up sparks1234.

I stand corrected.

 

[chrissyh]

Re: mains change

I'm sure you also have a driving licence but would you go out driving if you didn't??

At the end of the day, if it all goes pear shaped you only have yourself to blame, there a lot of guys on here paying their dues to the self certification schemes and doing it all legally, why should you be any different?

The difference is that at work the installation is not covered by Part P, and thats the whole point!!

I dont see it like that at all and if i interpret what john has said correctly, then it would appear the local building control has approved him as an installer in which case, for work in his area, he has no requirement to join one of the expensive clubs.

 

[sparks1234]

Re: mains change

I dont see it like that at all and if i interpret what john has said correctly, then it would appear the local building control has approved him as an installer in which case, for work in his area, he has no requirement to join one of the expensive clubs.

Correct me if I am wrong but we are talking about domestic installation here! If that is not the case then I am barking up the wrong tree and I apologise but.
If we are talking about electrical installation in a domestic situation then the law requires electrical installations to be signed off by a person or company that is registered with a self certification scheme such as elecsa, Napit etc etc or the works have to be notified prior to works commencing to the local authority, then at the end of the job they will be signed off by the representative of the local authority, usually a third party electrical contractor.

 

[sparks1234]

New thread to discuss what you need to carry out electrical installations in a domestic enviroment,
Question, can you carry out electrical works in a domestic property without being either in a self certification scheme or having the works certified by the local authority?

 

[Modernelectric]

it depends if the work is part p notifiable or not. theres a list on the goverments website which tells you what work needs to be notified to local building control.

e.g work in kitchens and bathrooms, and new circuits are part p where as moving a lightswitch on a landing is not, but must still comply with 17th edition and be certified by a competent person.

 

[Spudnik]

Although a little out of sync i have moved some posts from the other thread.

 

[sparks1234]

it depends if the work is part p notifiable or not. theres a list on the goverments website which tells you what work needs to be notified to local building control.

e.g work in kitchens and bathrooms, and new circuits are part p where as moving a lightswitch on a landing is not, but must still comply with 17th edition and be certified by a competent person.

We are talking domestic works in general, changing a light switch for a new face plate etc does not need to be notified but John is saying he has shown his electricians certificates to the local authority and they have accepted this as his works are all passed off.

As part P electricians we have to notify and register our jobs, who is notifying Johns? if they are not notified then the client is not getting the correct paperwork to go with the paperwork for the property etc etc.

 

[acat]

I agree with sparks1234 the whole idea was to get rid of the cowboys. a competent person must notify building control before work starts unless it is an emergency. On completion of the work building control take responsibility for your work.

The part P document page 7 states that you are exempt the building control notification if the installation work is undertaken by a person registered with an electrical self certification scheme"

It would be interesting to see if the building control that accepted the qualifications would be willing to put their comments in writing.




Chris

 

[Mac]

Sorry,might sound a bit thick here.If you don't have Part P but are 2391 accredited,you can't carry out work in a domestic property.I thought this was all brought in only for kitchens and bathrooms.Can you not sign off work on any other part of the house including extensions.If you hold the 2391 are you not competent to do all this.

 

[sparks1234]

Sorry,might sound a bit thick here.If you don't have Part P but are 2391 accredited,you can't carry out work in a domestic property.I thought this was all brought in only for kitchens and bathrooms.Can you not sign off work on any other part of the house including extensions.If you hold the 2391 are you not competent to do all this.

No, not according to the laws set out for this type of works, I am sure we are all compedent but it is a requirement to register jobs through a scheme or the local authority, some small works do not require this though and you can download a list

 

[acat]

Hi Mac part P is the EAL VRQ which is purely the basics of electricity in domestic houses.On the electrical side that is covered by the college. The EAL VRQ exam itself at the end of the course is the Building Regs the combination of both give you the part P

Anyone that has the 2391 does not qualify for part P unless they have also got the EAL VRQ. When they brought in part P "grandfather rights" were not included

The minor works mentioned above are I think for your own house if you work in anyone elses part P rears its head again and I think this is why you have to do one notifiable and one non notifiable to get through your assessment.

Chris

 

[Mac]

Another money making scheme to rob the people in this country.Can someone who is Part P then do an inspect and test on industrial or commercial property.Don't you think it seems pointless that if all your work is house bashing and you are offered a small commercial or industrial job you would not be able to do it because you are Part P only

 

[acat]

Cant comment on the others but if you are part P and 2391 qualified with the NICEIC you can only do domestic properties under their banner. Whatever way you look at it, its another stealth tax





Chris

 

[old dog]

hi most building control if you show your qualifications when notifying .they will exept your eic and sign
you off. no need for any third party testing. i would think it may depend on the qualifications you hold

 

[Mac]

Cant comment on the others but if you are part P and 2391 qualified with the NICEIC you can only do domestic properties under their banner. Whatever way you look at it, its another stealth tax





Chris

Cheers mate

 

[chrissyh]

Re: mains change

Correct me if I am wrong but we are talking about domestic installation here! If that is not the case then I am barking up the wrong tree and I apologise but.
If we are talking about electrical installation in a domestic situation then the law requires electrical installations to be signed off by a person or company that is registered with a self certification scheme such as elecsa, Napit etc etc or the works have to be notified prior to works commencing to the local authority, then at the end of the job they will be signed off by the representative of the local authority, usually a third party electrical contractor.

I dont think your wrong. I just think/imagine that he notifies his local authority and they subsiquently sign off his work without the need for a 3rd party inspection as they regard him as a competent installer.

 

[sparks1234]

hi most building control if you show your qualifications when notifying .they will exept your eic and sign
you off. no need for any third party testing. i would think it may depend on the qualifications you hold

So then, what you are saying then is they are taking your qualifications at face value, trusting that you are suitibly qualified to carry out the works, and then they do register the Job as required by Part P, why are we all paying this money???

 

[Mac]

What i'm saying is that if you worked all your life doing commercial and industrial and you had every qualification going,why can't you wire up a house.It is all to do with the Govt and another way to make money from someone who has the potential to earn a good living.And you wonder why people go abroad to work and there is such a shortfall in sparks in this country.

 

[chrissyh]

What i'm saying is that if you worked all your life doing commercial and industrial and you had every qualification going,why can't you wire up a house.It is all to do with the Govt and another way to make money from someone who has the potential to earn a good living.And you wonder why people go abroad to work and there is such a shortfall in sparks in this country.

And there it is in a nutshell! Its basically goverment job creation by constructing another tier of officialdom for which we have the priviledge of paying for. It wont be long before all of the schemes are owned by the big two and all of a sudden they have captured the pocket of all those indepenent minded sparks who to date have seen them for the money making members clubs they really are.

 

[Spudnik]

Another thing to also consider, is that if building control allow you to 'go direct' to them, if there are any problems in the future, you wont have any scheme provider to back you up.

Not something i would comfortable with.

 

[Mac]

Another thing to also consider, is that if building control allow you to 'go direct' to them, if there are any problems in the future, you wont have any scheme provider to back you up.

Not something i would comfortable with.

Sorry mate,why would you need a scheme provider to cover your back.If you're a qualified electrician wherever you work be it domestic or commercial,you should always do a professional job.Regardless.It was introduced by the Govt as another money earner.
PARTP.CO.UK - What is Part P

 

[Spudnik]

Sorry mate,why would you need a scheme provider to cover your back.If you're a qualified electrician wherever you work be it domestic or commercial,you should always do a professional job.Regardless.It was introduced by the Govt as another money earner.
PARTP.CO.UK - What is Part P

I knew i shouldnt have posted

Now this isnt a cop out but, to be honest, i have done this subject to death in the past, hence the reason i am kinda sitting this one out.

 

[sparks1234]

What i'm saying is that if you worked all your life doing commercial and industrial and you had every qualification going,why can't you wire up a house.It is all to do with the Govt and another way to make money from someone who has the potential to earn a good living.And you wonder why people go abroad to work and there is such a shortfall in sparks in this country.

Nobody disagrees with that, the argument was that you are required to have this by law, I have been an electrician since 1978 and we never had this until a few years ago, but the fact is it is required by law, nobody is questioning anybodies ability.

Jason....chicken LOL

 

[Mac]

Nobody disagrees with that, the argument was that you are required to have this by law, I have been an electrician since 1978 and we never had this until a few years ago, but the fact is it is required by law, nobody is questioning anybodies ability.

Jason....chicken LOL

I didn't say that.The Part P was introduced by the Govt in 2005,just another moneyspinner and another stealth tax to tax us all again

 

[Spudnik]

Jason....chicken LOL

Dont make me reach for the ban button....

 

[sparks1234]

I didn't say that.The Part P was introduced by the Govt in 2005,just another moneyspinner and another stealth tax to tax us all again

Not you Mac, it was said earlier today by John Irvine I think his name was

 

[Mac]

Not you Mac, it was said earlier today by John Irvine I think his name was

Sorry mate

 

[Spudnik]

Oh i cant resist.

Part P had been in the pipeline a long time before it was introduced.

It was the MP's daughters death that pushed it through without much thought, hence the state its in.


Now thats my input on the subject and im saying no more.

Now leave me alone.

 

[sparks1234]

Oh i cant resist.

Part P had been in the pipeline a long time before it was introduced.

It was the MP's daughters death that pushed it through without much thought, hence the state its in.


Now thats my input on the subject and im saying no more.

Now leave me alone.

Bet you can't resist another comment a bit later Jason

I'm off to the off electrics forum. enough electrical arguments for today

 

[Jono Pashley]

At the end of the day Building Controls word is final. So if they say its alright and you can get that in writing the scams can goto hell. Scams back you up? yea right. If your doing the job right and to standards, your PI and PLI are going to cover you.

 

[sparks1234]

At the end of the day Building Controls word is final. So if they say its alright and you can get that in writing the scams can goto hell. Scams back you up? yea right. If your doing the job right and to standards, your PI and PLI are going to cover you.

can you get it in writing?

 

[Had8Lives]

If local building control will accept copies of quals and test sheets as compliance with Part P then it will come back and bite them on the ar*e, as it's no different to a cowboy copying someones quals and test sheets. I appreciate there are no cowboys here.

 

[Jono Pashley]

If local building control will accept copies of quals and test sheets as compliance with Part P then it will come back and bite them on the ar*e, as it's no different to a cowboy copying someones quals and test sheets. I appreciate there are no cowboys here.

No you would have to show them the actual certificates. So its quite a world away from someone stealing your credentials, Most LABC seem quite happy to accept your test results if your sufficiently qualified, Im sure if requested written proof could be obtained. Whether you like it or not, If that LABC accepts it there very few people who can say otherwise.

 

[Spudnik]

Will they issue you with a letter stating that they accept just qualifications (if sufficient) and allow you to notify direct?

 

[acat]

Indeed if thats what they say but like we have all said are they willing to confirm that in writing so you have proof. If you are unfortunate enough for any reason to be prosecuted that letter could be a get out of jail free card.




Chris

 

[Spudnik]

Indeed.

There have been a few successful cases of 'failure to notify' prosecutions, and im not sure "they said it was alright" would help much.

 

[chrissyh]

Indeed.

There have been a few successful cases of 'failure to notify' prosecutions, and im not sure "they said it was alright" would help much.

But i read it as he does notify and they are comfortable with his ability/qualifications to carry out the said works in a competent manner without the need for 3rd party inspection. So your analogy is irrellevant.
If my interpretation is correct, I would of thought it was an unusal and refreshing case of common sense breaking out in a local council!

 

[acat]

The requirement is until you belong to a body you must inform the LABC. If you dont and as Jason said you get prosecuted for failing to notify do you really expect the person who told you your qualifications are enough to stand up in court and say its my fault Im the plonker who told him or do you think he will deny all knowledge and let you carry the can.

A phone call can be denied letter headed paper cannot and as they are the legal body that would prosecute a letter would stop any prosecution dead in its tracks.

I know which one I would prefer.



Chris

 

[Mac]

Or they're too bloody lazy to come out and check the job.Sounds like all council workers

 

[chrissyh]

The requirement is until you belong to a body you must inform the LABC. If you dont and as Jason said you get prosecuted for failing to notify do you really expect the person who told you your qualifications are enough to stand up in court and say its my fault Im the plonker who told him or do you think he will deny all knowledge and let you carry the can.

A phone call can be denied letter headed paper cannot and as they are the legal body that would prosecute a letter would stop any prosecution dead in its tracks.

I know which one I would prefer.



Chris

I understand that chris but you miss my point. I am assuming he DOES notify the LABC.

 

[andyb]

The way read it is that work that comes under part p of the buildings regs must be notified to the local building control department.

This is not necessary if you are registered with an electrical self-certification scheme.

So, as long as you notify local building control before you start, undertake the work to bs7671 an send the lbc your eic you are covered.

After that it's up to your lbc, most will want to test your installation and charge for this. Others it seems just want to see your qualifactions.

Personally, I would make sure all my notifactions were in writing.

Or mabey just join a scheme.

 

[GT1]

As it happens I have spoken to a local labc today reference some notifiable work im quoting for.

Not being being a member of one of the schemes at the moment I rang to find out their protocols for notifying the work and the costs involved.

They told me that they indeed run their own self certification scheme. They will require me to attend their offices with originals of the qualifications I hold
From then I can certify my own work, provide them with test results and certs and jobs done, for a fee of 30 pounds per job.

I was told that my all work would be subject to "dip sampling" by their people, however if I prove I am competent / qualified, then their scheme will satisfy all notifiable part P work in their local authority area.

Personally, I think it a very good alternative to the other (very expensive) scheme providers.

 

[Mac]

As it happens I have spoken to a local labc today reference some notifiable work im quoting for.

Not being being a member of one of the schemes at the moment I rang to find out their protocols for notifying the work and the costs involved.

They told me that they indeed run their own self certification scheme. They will require me to attend their offices with originals of the qualifications I hold
From then I can certify my own work, provide them with test results and certs and jobs done, for a fee of 30 pounds per job.

I was told that my all work would be subject to "dip sampling" by their people, however if I prove I am competent / qualified, then their scheme will satisfy all notifiable part P work in their local authority area.

Personally, I think it a very good alternative to the other (very expensive) scheme providers.

It sounds like a great idea.Do you have to do this for every job(take your certs in)or just the once.Will you have to take photo ID to prove who you are and will they issue you with sort of relevant paper to say that you are allowed to self cert

 

[andyb]

Personally, I think it a very good alternative to the other (very expensive) scheme providers.

It depends on how many notifiable jobs you are doing and how many local authority building controls involved.

My work takes me into 4 or 5 different authority areas so I would have to be sure of all their different policies.

Also, at £30.00 a job, if you did more than 15 jobs a year it gets quite expensive. Plus there is no on line notification or warenty.