UK Electricity meter problem

[Davephoto]

Just received a £900 electricity bill for an empty flat, the electricity is turned off at the fuse box so I checked the units on the meter. The units are going up 5 units per day, 20 units at night and 50 units stored. I have no storage heaters and I don’t have a hot water tank. I assumed when the electricity is turned off the meter should not go up, is this right?
The meter is from 2003 Horstmann radio telemeter series 2A

 

[davesparks]

You are correct, the meter should not record any usage if the entire installation is switched off.

Are you sure everything is off? As you have seperate day and night rates you presumably have economy 7 (or some other form of on/off peak supply) so you may have another consumer unit which is still switched on.

Double check that everything connected to the meter is switched off and contact your electricity supplier.

If you post a picture of the meter and consumer unit(s) we may be able to spot something obvious.

 

[snowhead]

As above photos would help.
Have you previously had a bill for units used while the flat has been empty, assuming it's not recently become empty?
And if so was there any noticeable usage?

There is usually a separate supply for the Landlord for stairs / corridor / common areas etc for lighting and outside / parking areas etc.
But sometimes the Landlord supply is through one of the flat's meters or a sub meter and the Landlord refunds their useage?

 

[Ned Gibbons]

Is the meter in the flat or in a meter room? I know this is daft but are you definitely reading the right meter. If they've been mislabeled the chances are no one would have ever questioned it.

 

[littlespark]

Top floor? Recently purchased?

Check the attic for grow lights etc.


Even with power turned off, the suppliers still ask for the standing charge…. Which is getting quite high. How can they increase that when it’s not directly linked to the wholesale energy prices?


What do you mean by 50 units stored?

How long does this £900 cover?

A unit is basically a kilowatt used per hour. So 5 units is 5kW over an hour, or 2.5kW over 2 hours etc

 

[Davephoto]

Thank you for all the fast responses on this, first off it’s a first floor flat with four floors, so 2 above me
The bill is over a 3 month period and the readings in the images are 18 hours apart.
The meter is located outside, next to the the front door, the consumer unit (fuse box) is located inside on the same wall about a foot above the meter.
This is the first bill I’ve had as I bought the flat for my mum but due to illness she had to move out.
On the bill it’s saying ’electricity day’ ‘electricity night’ ’electricity stored‘ which I equate to Rate 1, Rate 2 and Rate 3 respectively.
I’ll take an image of the fuse box later as I don’t have one yet.

 

[brianmoooore]

There's definitely power going somewhere!
Can you post a pic of the fusebox and any wiring around it, please, and a pic showing the whole of the inside of the meter box.

 

[newfutile]

This appears to be set up for economy 7,so as said before check any storage heaters, the store - rate 3 is confusing do you have a battery storage or solar? As it also says red which usually means reverse energy detected!

 

[mainline]

Look at the Tails (cables) coming from the meter, do they all go to one Consumer unit (fuse box).

 

[snowhead]

To the O.P, who is the energy supplier, is it SSE and are you on SUPERDEAL.
It appears that power is being used, but I have found a complaint in another forum of the same meter reading reading 16000 units higher in a 6 month period compared to the previous 2, 6month periods.


See below for explanation of rates including rate 3 Storage on Superdeal.

 

[Davephoto]

Here is the fuse box and how I have left it with the two red switches off and a photo of the meter and box. These are the radiators I have in the flat.
yes I am on the SSE standard super deal although I never asked to be put on it they sent me a letter saying they were putting me on it.
As you can see Rate 1 has gone up over 80 units since yesterday.
I have no battery storage or sola.
what is reverse energy?

 

[westward10]

The immersion heater is still on turn off the right side lower Main Switch.

 

[Davephoto]

The immersion heater is still on turn off the right side lower Main Switch.

I have no immersion, just a on demand water heater, even with the other 2 switches off will this draw power?

 

[westward10]

Is the light flashing on the meter, you may have to watch for a while. I would still turn off that immersion circuit.

 

[Davephoto]

Is the light flashing on the meter, you may have to watch for a while. I would still turn off that immersion circuit.

Yes the red lights are flashing, I’ll go and turn it off now…

 

[Davephoto]

Ok I’ve turned off every switch in the fuse box. Could the RED message on the meter be anything to do with the water heater electrics being worked on? A new water heater was fitted but required a bigger fuse and new wiring which was fitted into a spare socket in the fuse board.
The red lights are still flashing after everything is turned off.

 

[pc1966]

Really you need to get a professional electrician in to look at this.

If it is still taking power with all switches off then either they are faulty (not disconnecting even though switched off) which is obviously very dangerous, or there is some hidden connection to the meter outputs. That could be some older fusebox that has stupidly been boxed in somewhere, which again is a risk for all sorts of reasons, or it might be a deliberate fraud by some neighbouring property or previous tenant.

When you do get someone in ask that they photograph what they find before any attempt to put it right, just in case it is due to fraud and you need to speak to the police.

 

[pc1966]

It might be a faulty meter, but a professional will be able to clamp-meter the tails of the supply meter to see if the installation really is taking power or not, and so if the meter is reading in an unexplained manner or it is genuine(even before finding any hidden load).

 

[James]

Where in the U.K., are you?
maybe someone could pop in for a quick look in exchange for a beer?

 

[Davephoto]

I’m in the South East in Aldershot.
I’ve spoken to SSE twice about getting someone out but that was 3 days ago and still nothing hence the reason for this post. I’ll contact them again tomorrow.

 

[LukeD]

Either you have a circuit you dont know about due to it been used by "next door" etc . I would be pulling the main fuse out .See if the neighbours start looking around !


Yonks ago A clients sister bought a flat in London, terrible place and never worth 50% of what she paid . 3 flats all developed . turned out developer owned ground floor and the other 2 flats supplied his electrics ! His mate had been crafty with the wiring . Seen other flats where they have spurred off a ring and used it etc.

 

[brianmoooore]

Put everything on both fuse boxes in the down (off) position, not just the main switches, and see if that stops the meter.

 

[mainline]

Put everything on both fuse boxes in the down (off) position, not just the main switches, and see if that stops the meter.

Ok I’ve turned off every switch in the fuse box. Could the RED message on the meter be anything to do with the water heater electrics being worked on? A new water heater was fitted but required a bigger fuse and new wiring which was fitted into a spare socket in the fuse board.
The red lights are still flashing after everything is turned off.

 

[brianmoooore]

OP says they've turned off every switch. We don't know if that's the three labelled as switch, or absolutely everything. That RCD could conceivably be wired as a fourth main switch.

 

[pc1966]

OP says they've turned off every switch. We don't know if that's the three labelled as switch, or absolutely everything. That RCD could conceivably be wired as a fourth main switch.

If it is that convoluted the OP really, REALLY, needs to get someone in to sort it out!

 

[mainline]

OP says they've turned off every switch. We don't know if that's the three labelled as switch, or absolutely everything. That RCD could conceivably be wired as a fourth main switch.

Read post #13 onwards

 

[brianmoooore]

Read post #13 onwards

I have, and post #16 tells me that the CU has been 'played with' since it's original installation, and that the person who made the changes might even have been a plumber.

 

[pc1966]

...the person who made the changes might even have been a plumber.

Indeed, someone competent has to check it!

 

[mainline]

I have, and post #16 tells me that the CU has been 'played with' since it's original installation, and that the person who made the changes might even have been a plumber.

Or he may have been an experienced electrician.

 

[brianmoooore]

Indeed, someone competent has to check it!

the fact that power is being drawn through the meter when it shouldn't be demonstrates that this is self evident, but in the meantime, it would be helpful to the OP if we could discover just how and where this power is being drawn, and whether it's bad wiring or something more sinister.

 

[Rockingit]

Absolutely needs checking out for a dodgy circuit or faulty meter but there’s another third option, too…. Conceivably, if an outgoing Live tail from the meter was poorly terminated and a conductor was ‘shorting’ onto the brickwork/concrete/whatever it’s not impossible that current is flowing back to the TN point - nobody would ever know as the Ra would be significant but Ohms Law remains the same.

 

[Lucien Nunes]

there’s another third option, too…. Conceivably, if an outgoing Live tail from the meter was poorly terminated and a conductor was ‘shorting’ onto the brickwork/concrete/whatever it’s not impossible that current is flowing back to the TN point

It's hard to visualise a fault of this nature using so much juice without making itself immediately apparent. If I read the post correctly the meter registers 20 units each night so the fault would have to be dissipating a few kW, which would rapidly burn out. I would think that only an actual heating appliance, or a circuit feeding someone else's property, could consistently rack up that kind of consumption.

Definitely needs expert investigation and as mentioned above, a detailed step-by-step record made and nothing changed initially. There could be financial and legal advantages to keeping all the evidence intact until any resolution with the supplier or other parties is completed.

 

[pc1966]

To be wasting 1kW would be difficult to ignore unless it was in to some buried conductor and no RCD on that circuit, then you could be seeing 4A go endlessly with little evidence other than toasted worms.

 

[mainline]

It's hard to visualise a fault of this nature using so much juice without making itself immediately apparent. If I read the post correctly the meter registers 20 units each night so the fault would have to be dissipating a few kW, which would rapidly burn out. I would think that only an actual heating appliance, or a circuit feeding someone else's property, could consistently rack up that kind of consumption.

Definitely needs expert investigation and as mentioned above, a detailed step-by-step record made and nothing changed initially. There could be financial and legal advantages to keeping all the evidence intact until any resolution with the supplier or other parties is completed.

He's also got the added benefit of posting on here.

The only logical thing is theft, probably done years ago, nobody would have noticed another added storage heater to their bill.

 

[Davephoto]

Small update, i’ve had an electrician come out to do the electric safety test and PAT test on the flat and while he was there he checked the electricity meter and confirmed that no electricity was coming out of the meter so it appears the fault is within the meter, once again I’m in the hands of SSC, still waiting for the electrician.

 

[littlespark]

OK... so you need to prove how long this has been faulty for. Have you recently bought the place, and not moved in?
Have you got previous readings that you know should be zero?

 

[brianmoooore]

Wouldn't happen with an old style analogue meter with clock dials. So much for progress.

 

[pc1966]

That is a good start, but did they see the meter incrementing (i.e. flashing) while no power on the tails? Just in case it is an intermittent load (or someone knows they are being investigated!)

 

[Davephoto]

All I can say is the council come round to check the flat was empty so I could get vacant occupancy on the council tax 3 months ago, plus the lettings agent has also seen it vacant and the electrician said he would put in writing that no electricity was coming from the tails. As a side note the consumer unit had to be changed yesterday to a new unit to comply with the latest regs, I checked after the unit was changed 12 hours later and still the meter is going up.

 

[pc1966]

All I can say is the council come round to check the flat was empty so I could get vacant occupancy on the council tax 3 months ago, plus the lettings agent has also seen it vacant and the electrician said he would put in writing that no electricity was coming from the tails. As a side note the consumer unit had to be changed yesterday to a new unit to comply with the latest regs, I checked after the unit was changed 12 hours later and still the meter is going up.

OK that point to either a faulty meter or someone has very cleverly tapped in to the meter output tails.

Definitely time to get the supplier out to check/replace the meter.

 

[Swift2020]

1- make sure your reading the correct meter, don't always trust the labelling if its in a meter cupboard / room.
2- make sure you've isolated everything
3- check yourself of somebody qualified to make sure someone isn't tapping off your supply in the cupboard.
4- contact supplier & explain the situation.

 

[Davephoto]

1- make sure your reading the correct meter, don't always trust the labelling if its in a meter cupboard / room.
2- make sure you've isolated everything
3- check yourself of somebody qualified to make sure someone isn't tapping off your supply in the cupboard.
4- contact supplier & explain the situation.

It’s the correct meter, new consumer unit installed from the tails off of the meter.
Everything is turned off in the flat and off in the fuse box.
No power coming out of the tails at the fuse box or meter.
Contacted supplier (SSC) via email and phone every other day for 10 days and the same response is we will be in contact to check the meter.
Edit: just had an email from the supplier wanting more details, first response from them, let’s hope the wheels of progress have started turning. I’ll keep you all informed in the hope it will help others.

 

[LukeD]

tapping into the tails would be easy to notice ?? I would still pull the main fuse

 

[brianmoooore]

How was the power isolated while the CU was being changed?

 

[littlespark]

How was the power isolated while the CU was being changed?

Good point.
The supplier could turn up and find the seals cut off.

Ive known old mechanical disc meters going faulty. Tipping them on their side could slow them down......

 

[Davephoto]

How was the power isolated while the CU was being changed?

He took out the fuse under the meter which I assume is the main fuse.

 

[brianmoooore]

He took out the fuse under the meter which I assume is the main fuse.

That would require removing the supplier's seal on the main fuse. Although we frequently find that this seal has mysteriously removed itself, you've posted a pic on here for the world to see, clearly showing the seal in place.
The whole set up should not have been touched until the meter problem is sorted.

 

[mainline]

That would require removing the supplier's seal on the main fuse. Although we frequently find that this seal has mysteriously removed itself, you've posted a pic on here for the world to see, clearly showing the seal in place.
The whole set up should not have been touched until the meter problem is sorted.

It's easy to say in hindsight, but the O/P needed the CU changing and the suspected current loss looked at.
He can prove the meter seals were intact when the pic was taken.
Imo no harm done.

 

[Davephoto]

Just to put a resolution to this post an SSC electrician came to fit a check meter yesterday, he was not concerned about the tag not being on the main fuse as he could see it was a new consumer unit.
I took 2 photos which are 24 hours apart, the check meter has not moved but the electricity meter has gone up once again. I feel this is enough proof that it is the meter at fault and hopefully I can get the bill nullified but that will be another bun fight I’m sure.
Thank you for all your input and suggestions this forum really helped me with this situation.