EPC Course , day 4 of 6

[MCS Renewables]

Started the DEA course on Monday and today,on day four, we have done three EPC projects out of the five required for registration.

If you`ve got Part L most of the first three days are a breeze, you just have to sit through it.
If you are a registered electrician with a few years of site experience , wiring boilers and heating systems and with a reasonable amount of building site knowledge, building construction, insulation, windows, floor types, etc etc its also not too bad.

We have four people on this course , me , our surveyor who has Part L, who is a plumber aged over 50, an electrician aged 50 with no Part L , and one of the apprentices aged 20 who has Part L. We have passed the exams and only need to do two more test cases and complete the paperwork systems. Sort of another complete MCS paperwork chase and then get our free first year ECMK registration.
We need to go back for a one day course with exam before October to get the green deal bit but apparently there is no course, as yet.

There is an estate agent on the course and a renewable guy, who is basically a salesmen with no trade skills....both of these are struggling.

The actual property survey takes AT LEAST an hour and a half with at least the same amount of time doing the follow up paperwork at home and online registration. The upload costs about £7 and its all drop down boxes, tricky at first but basically a bigger MCS project registration. You have to upload quite a lot of other information and photos as you are constantly audited. You have to keep paperwork copies of everything for 15 years!

You have to have seperate PI and PL insurance but if you spend an extra 50p at upload time these are included.

With regard to the level D rating, the 50% pass rate quoted by others seems very very quite high and if anyone thought throwing in loft insulation is going to bump up properties to a D rating , think again....
None of the solar technologies scores very highly either !!

Post any questions and I will try to help. If you are fitting PV in Bath or Corfe Castle village or similar , its pre April this year or NEVER !!

Glad I did it so we can keep everything in house and we can now offer free EPCs with installations but I think lifes going to get tougher.

 

[babba]

Could you run us through the basics of what you need for a D rating...

 

[MCS Renewables]

It doesn`t really work like that as each property is diferent, floor area, heat loss wall perimeter, age of property, conservatory size, any extension details, virtually everything from initial construction through to current position. Thats why the survey takes so long.

Based on the three so far ,
1. Flat in block , second floor built 1970s, occupants below and above property , very little heat loss perimeter walls , communal unheated corridor scored a C, but not solar suitable !
2. 1960s bungalow , extended 1980 and conservatory in 2004, cavity wall filled, brand new ECOtech boiler and new cylinder and controls, virtually 100% energy lights, all TRVs fitted except bypass towel rail, good loft insulation. Solid ground floor. This scored a D but because of the loft conversion is not solar suitable.
3. 1970s bungalow, original night storage heaters, economy seven cyclinder original, no energy lights, fuseboard and earthing meets 14th edition. Very little loft instulation. Basically not good and scores a lowly F. But with a new boiler and heating system with modern controls as gas is available , energy lights which would need other electrical improvements and a small fortune spent on insulation you can get it to a D. Fitting PV and thermal alone would only just get you to an E, roof is suitable but loads of money needs spending to enable renewables.


Obviously these properties have been selected to teach us the parameters of the system and when I have done twenty of my own I would be in a better position to help you. I have the programme but will need more time trying out various combinations .


At least this ....

loft insulation of 270mm
Double glazing to more than 50% of windows
TRVs to more than 50% of radiators
Efficient boiler (85% plus) with roomstat or two, zone controls etc etc
Proper buildings regs energy efficient lighting to 50% plus of lighting points
cavity wall insulation,

 

[Earthstore]

This is great info, thanks, but once you know your way around the EPC thing, it would be easy to upgrade or downgrade the EPC if you should so chose.
IE If you needed a modern boiler to make the grade, what is there to stop you saying it has one? or whatever slight changes you need to make if you get my drift.
Of course, I would not condone this type of action, but it would not be difficult would it?

 

[blades1898]

Great info I start the course on the 26th it's a three day course and you do the five portfolios in your own time. I've seen a website that you can buy 5 portfolios including photos sketches and all the info u need to do an EPC on , think it was £40.

 

[babba]

Seems most modernish houses will pass..I wonder if a new oil boiler will be the same as a gas ....if electric heating is as good as gas...
Its a learning curb but thanks for the imput..was really helpful...

 

[babba]

We have been offered a EPC for about £70 per EPC... I know it may sound expensive but it leaves us with a lot less paper work and hassle as this all takes time..

 

[infinity]

MCS, where was this course and whom with? I booked a course last week, 3 days long £1000, 5 of us in class we didt learn a thing, tutor did not have a clue very embarrassing, we all had to voice our opinions on 2nd day and on 3rd had to all refuse to pay and got a full refund. We were the first candidates and he swore not to hold another! lets hope not!!
It was EPCTraining in Fareham incase anyone was going there!
I want to write those 3 days off and sit a proper course!

 

[MCS Renewables]

We did it with PPL training. Course in Fleet, Hampshire. Cost £1600 but does include doing the five test cases, so no homework and finished in one go. Get a free first year membership of ECMK and price includes the bolt on bit with exam later in the year.
Got a discount as booked four places.
Stayed in Prem Inn about 5 miles away which was another £400 each.

No chance of cheating as ALL EPCs where you have a conflict of interest, ie selling solar, are audited.

Would not consider a third party EPC as you will need to pay them whether you get the project or not, and you will need to pay them even if solar is not an option.

We can now do a solar survey and EPC survey at the same time, then get a provisional EPC using the programme, fit the renewable system and then give the EPC away for free with the project. You also need to find someone you trust, who will not give your prospective customers away to other ECO companies, will turn up when you need them etc etc.

If we get one thats a non starter we have only wasted our own time which happens on solar surveys anyway.

 

[BruceB]

When an EPC is done on a house with extensions done over many years, is the software sophisticated enough to take account of the different levels of insulation in different bits of the building, or does it just base the assessment on the worst performing wall and roof?

I have a vague memory from when HIPs were being mooted that there was such a criticism.

 

[Yanman]

MCS, whats to stop the prospective customer that you have done the EPC for saying thanks very much for that free survey and then going with a rival company for the solar?

 

[MCS Renewables]

Al extensions and alterations and changes to the property are fed in as data to the software which calculates the EPC rating. The programme knows the building regs and u values from the extension dates.

We would not issue the EPC to the customer until we had done the project so our solar/ energy survey is no good for others. You can do a draft EPC to get yourself the current rating and then an updated version for handover.
You will need the EPC and the MCS certificate for the Feed in Tariff.

 

[MCS Renewables]

You can probably book this training direct with Energy Assessment Training, Awards Centre, Consultancy - Magma Enterprises , who did the training in Fleet on behalf of PPL.

Should save yourself the PPL mark up !
Trainer was Neil Aris who is a registered energy assessor as well as a gas safe heating engineer. Knows what he is doing and is a working tradesmen. 10/10

 

[Mattty]

Can you confirm, did your course include the DEA Professional Development qualification? All DEAs have to have passed this course to continue to produce EPCs from the 1st April. I suspect that may be the extra bit they were talking about. You might want to confirm that you will actually be able to lodge EPCs from April 1st.

 

[Cbigfoot]

Just had an EPC done on my house to see what it was about, Mine came in at D. It is a 1950 9" solid walls. 250 insulation and new boiler with foam cyinder and all the controls. On the base of the EPC it says that if i have 2.5KWp PV it will bring it to band B

I have struck a deal with the person who came round and she will charge me £40 per EPC, (normally £50) Basically she said that she would have to do the test twice if the house did not come up to band D but at least we would have a good idea as she will put the PV size we are planning on in the detials and we will be able to see what band the house will end up in.

It seems that Loft insualtion Class A boiler and heating controls are the most important, along with Low energy lighting. So i can make an educated guess when i visit site, and see if i can "encourage people" to part with the money for the test up front.

 

[SRE]

Wall type is critical as is fuel type. It's very unusual to have a 1950's house with solid walls and on most properties built after 1930 they will have cavity walls and need to be filled. You can usually tell by looking for the drill pattern - 1.2 metres apart in a diamond shape in the mortar bed.

 

[Cbigfoot]

It's very unusual to have a 1950's house with solid walls and on most properties built after 1930 they will have cavity walls and need to be filled.

I know, but there you are, its 9" solid!

I live in the house that Jack Built!

 

[SRE]

Not many like that now ....

 

[moggy1968]

do we know, do the low energy fittings have to be proper low energy fittings that will only take a low energy bulb, or can you get away with low energy bulbs in a standard fitting. I know for building regs on new builds/refurbs it has to be the correct low energy fitting but how about retrospectively. would you have to change all your ceiling roses?

 

[BruceB]

It changed in the latest building regs - you no longer need low energy fittings for anything, just low energy lamps.

 

[moggy1968]

cool, happy days:rockon2:

 

[solargray]

Hi mcs renewables, this sounds great. But if you get called out to do a solar survey, that might be free, the program will recommend all of the basic energy efficient products first and solar will be so far down the list that it will not be considered, and you will have wasted your time, I think it's time to get into windows and the itchy stuff. Regards

 

[solargray]

In that case the customer will get six companies to quote and your survey will be worthless. The client should be made to pay for each survey and have this added to the cost of his green deal. It would be a cost to him so he wouldn't be asking more than 3 companies to quote and at least your professionalism will be paid for. Good luck

 

[SRE]

I think you'll find that customers need barriers broken down to make their buying easier not erected to put them off. This business is going to be hard enough without insisting that the customer pays for the survey. I for one won't be charging so anyone in my area who does try to charge is immediately at a disadvantage and I won't be alone.

 

[Cbigfoot]

I do not see the problem, With the advice given to me by the person who did my EPC, i have a good guide to where D band would be. Clarity and Honesty has won me more work than it has cost me. Basically i will look at it and explain the situation to the client, giving them the info i know, and if they agree in principle to place the work with me i will have the survey done. It will be mine untill the works are done. If the property fails to reach band D without vast expenidture to the client and they choose not to go ahead, thats my loss, but i really feel that if you explain to the client what its about, there will be few issues.
I will not charge the client up front for it, but it will be built into the cost of the job if it goes ahead.

 

[Mattty]

It will be mine untill the works are done.

Ownership of an EPC is a tricky issue. Once it is lodged it is not actually the DEAs property! This has been an ongoing issue with DEAs and the odd client who refuses to pay.

Just make sure you don't lodge the EPC too soon and keep it in draft form. That way if you don't get the job you won't pay the lodgement and can just re-enter the data for the next property. Once an EPC is lodged, it is entered on to the central register and can be accessed by any other DEA. Some EPC software will tell you if an EPC is already lodged on a property.

 

[moggy1968]

so, if I understand this correctly....
In order to stay in this industry, which I have invested thousands of pounds and hundreds of hours in to get trained, assessed and registered, I am now expected to pay over a thousand pounds more, invest more time and increase my overheads at a time of shrinking returns and a rapidly contracting marketplace in an industry the Government seems determined to kill off within the next year or so.

I would sooner burn £5 notes before being beaten to death with the syphillis infested todger of a decomposing dead camel!

 

[Earthstore]

Or strike up a deal with a DEA..

 

[moggy1968]

I've already got a deal with the Drug Enforcement Agency, they leave me alone if I pay them enough!

 

[Cbigfoot]

Ownership of an EPC is a tricky issue.

If i get the EPC done it will be sent to me, i will report its findings to the client. Once the works are done it is placed in the clients pack. If not i will not send it to them. Should they go looking for it or find it online, or whatever that my loss, but i will tell the client that i will not release the EPC to them if the job does not go ahead.

If they find it another way so be it... not much i can do about that!