Heaters from ring

[Eddiesparks]

Okay, so I am doing a Rewire at the moment and have put in 32 amp ring final circuits on the upstairs and downstairs. Kitchen will be on its own ring. Top floor feeds about five double sockets bottom floor feeds four double sockets. So not a great amount of sockets. There has been talk of getting an electric radiator in the upstairs bedroom, an electric towel rail in bathroom and one heater in the downstairs front room - it's quite a small maisonette.. Would it be a heinous crime to Spur these off their respective rings. I am guessing they would be about 2 kW as they are quite efficient. Basically my first fix is done and the decision about the heaters has been made afterwards. So this would be far and away the easiest solution. What do you all think to this? In my opinion it is no different, and in fact probably a better solution, than her plugging in a couple of 3 kW oil filled radiators into the existing sockets!

 

[Pete999]

Can't check just yet as Ive just finished a very nice bottle of vino, but I think anything over and above 2KW as a fixed appliance should be on it's own circuit, will check when I'm a little more able:chillpill::rockon: and let you know

 

[telectrix]

Okay, so I am doing a Rewire at the moment and have put in 32 amp ring final circuits on the upstairs and downstairs. Kitchen will be on its own ring. Top floor feeds about five double sockets bottom floor feeds four double sockets. So not a great amount of sockets. There has been talk of getting an electric radiator in the upstairs bedroom, an electric towel rail in bathroom and one heater in the downstairs front room - it's quite a small maisonette.. Would it be a heinous crime to Spur these off their respective rings. I am guessing they would be about 2 kW as they are quite efficient. Basically my first fix is done and the decision about the heaters has been made afterwards. So this would be far and away the easiest solution. What do you all think to this? In my opinion it is no different, and in fact probably a better solution, than her plugging in a couple of 3 kW oil filled radiators into the existing sockets!

FCU on the RFC for each. 13A fuse. sorted.

 

[Adam W]

You can probably 'get away with' the towel rail, but I seem to remember reading somewhere the primary source of heating should be on it's own circuit.

 

[Engineer54]

You can probably 'get away with' the towel rail, but I seem to remember reading somewhere the primary source of heating should be on it's own circuit.

Does that read ''Should Be'' or ''Must Be''?? I wouldn't give it a second thought if i needed an electric heater, and all i had available was a RFC, .....that's what will be supplying the heater!! lol!!


Most ring circuits carry ridiculously low current loads in the vast majority of typical homes, especially those supplying bedrooms. So if the capacity is there, ....Use It!! lol!!

 

[wozz]

the towel rail will probably be just a few hundred watts and provide not alot of heating. on the face of it nothing in the regs to stop your plan working.

My only concern would be the effectiveness of these heaters, if they arnt enough will more get plugged in they are cheap after all and then you may have a problem, have the heaters been sized for the room? a chat with the customer and a bit of advice may provide a better solution for them and a bit more work for you. you cant control what happens after you have left but advising them of the limits of what can be plugged in may be advisable in this situation.

 

[DPG]

Sounds like you've got 3 separate ring finals serving what is only a handful of sockets anyway. That seems a bit of an overkill anyway, but should definately have spare capacity! Daz

 

[Eddiesparks]

Thanks all. I designed it this way anyway because it was not a great stress to run last leg in (10 mins per floor , if that!) and allows for extra load as there was talk of a towel rail and one heater downstairs to supplement rads. Looks like she wants to do away with the rads and just have some clever electric heaters with timers as it's only a small place with not many rooms and she is on her own so could turn heater on when she's in one room then switch over with a little overlap when she heads up to bed for e.g. To be honest she'll prob only use a tiny amount of the 32a without the heaters which is why i thought it ludicrous to put in a 16a radial for each one! Good responses, feels like i'm right in my thinking.

 

[Engineer54]

the towel rail will probably be just a few hundred watts and provide not alot of heating. on the face of it nothing in the regs to stop your plan working.
have the
My only concern would be the effectiveness of these heaters, if they arnt enough will more get plugged in they are cheap after all and then you may have a problem, have the heaters been sized for the room? a chat with the customer and a bit of advice may provide a better solution for them and a bit more work for you. you cant control what happens after you have left but advising them of the limits of what can be plugged in may be advisable in this situation.

No different to a homeowner plugging in 2 or 3 electric fan heaters around the house, and some of those are 2.5KW to 3KW a pop!!!

 

[wozz]

No different to a homeowner plugging in 2 or 3 electric fan heaters around the house, and some of those are 2.5KW to 3KW a pop!!!

Agreed although most properties have some sort of adequately thought about heating system without resorting to this as a back up this one doesn't, advising the customer of possible problems if they use lots of them seems wise in this situation as they have no other form of heating. In general in the cheap shops the cheaper the heater the less control and more kW so 3kwcall round, happy days till bill time.

Do they not want to think about using some cheap electricity and getting storage heaters?

 

[Knobhead]

It’s a small maisonette not a sauna!

I don’t recall the OP asking about electricity charges and tariffs.

 

[wozz]

so informing the customer the running costs of convector heaters is not something you would do?

couple of minutes chat and thats it, hardly a hardship.

 

[davesparks]

Only if you know the efficiency and running costs of the particular heater being installed.

 

[wozz]

Only if you know the efficiency and running costs of the particular heater being installed.

An educated guess will give them a idea.

by ONLY i suppose you would offer no advice then to the customer?

 

[haj]

ROINTE radiators are very good and on a plug too too !! Or you can fcu them.

 

[davesparks]

An educated guess will give them a idea.

by ONLY i suppose you would offer no advice then to the customer?

By only I mean I would only inform them of the running costs if I know the running costs.

I don't give out advice to customers based on guesses.

 

[wozz]

let them find out approach.

Well i would and have done and many people are surprised at the cost of heating properties with electric at peak cost.

 

[davesparks]

How do you go about working out the running costs then?

I assume you factor in the insulation of the rooms to be heated, number of external walls, any other heat sources, energy tariff they are on, efficiency of the heaters, size of the rooms?

 

[ferg]

Not to mention the average householders complete inability to use storage heaters properly.

Economy 7 and 10 also have much higher peak costs, so for a small property it may not be worth it depending on how much they use the heaters and usage during peak times.

 

[Engineer54]

ROINTE radiators are very good and on a plug too too !! Or you can fcu them.

Someone has been influenced by all the company snake oil hype!! lol!!

These things as i remember, are bloody expensive radiators (around 600 quid for a 2KW radiator) and are actually no better than any other manufactures products.

Heard all this old hype before, like any electrical radiator/heater, you basically get 1KW of heat output, for every KW of input. Anyone telling you any different, is is giving you a load of snake oil....

 

[Silly Sausage]

Get with the times Eng.
I've got a vphase unit at home and a 1kW kettle, I'm saving a fortune on tea brewing.

 

[Engineer54]

Get with the times Eng.
I've got a vphase unit at home and a 1kW kettle, I'm saving a fortune on tea brewing.

Haha..... If you say so... lol!!

 

[ferg]

Given that it's late and E54 is involved I am perhaps unwisely going to put my money where my mouth is.

The sales patter for modern electric heaters and boilers seems to be based around the near 100% efficiency figure in the advertising.

My argument is and always has been that the inefficiencies in electric heating are before it gets to the point of utilisation.
And those inefficiencies are still paid for by the end user.

Storage heaters are generally inefficiently used by the homeowner and consequently they rely on the very expensive convector part of the heater at peak rates.

All other usage is charged at a much higher rate as only the storage heaters get the benefit of the off peak rate, 2 meters, 1 through teleswitch, everything else through the other meter.

I live in a remote area so mains gas isn't an option it's either oil, LPG or electric heating.

When asked by customers what I use I have to tell them My heating and hot water is from a log burner with the option of using the Immersion for the hot water.

I can see that some electric radiators have the advantage of dispersing their heat over a longer period of time depending on what is between the element and the air but I fail to see how this can make them more efficient.

All I can see is the homeowner turning them up full til the place warms up and then opening a window when it's too hot.

I have quite literally lost count of the number of times I've been called out because of storage heaters not working.

Mostly it's the shutters fully open all the time and the windows open in the morning. Surprise surprise it's freezing at night.

 

[Engineer54]

Ferg, what i was trying to get over, is that this company Ronite, claims their heaters achieve 60% or whatever more efficiency over conventional heaters, which is just pure snake oil drivel!! They produce no more heat than any other electric heater for a given KW running cost. You will have just as good results from any electric heater. Oh and sometimes radiant heat is better than convection, especially for heating a small areas faster..

 

[wozz]

How do you go about working out the running costs then?

I assume you factor in the insulation of the rooms to be heated, number of external walls, any other heat sources, energy tariff they are on, efficiency of the heaters, size of the rooms?

well heat loss will be fairly standard for that room no matter what heater you use, OP said no other heat sources, energy tariff easy usually a bill around, efficiency of the heaters? we are talking about electric heaters here dam near 100%, size of room is a constant aswel.

As simple as something like 3x3kw on for say 5-8 hours a day depending on what the customer does with their lives and how drafty it is, and you have a rough idea of running costs. Water wouldnt be hard to do either. No need to overcomplicate things or try to be too accurate this is a back of smoke packet thing to give a cvustomer who may never have directly heated a property before some idea of how expensive it can be in running costs compared to other forms.

Done it many times with electric underfloor heating when customers are still deciding, they would like for like compare the installation cost of a wet system and electric and go for electric as its cheaper. Without any consideration for running costs.

as for ROINTE only had a couple of brushes with them found their marketing drivel funny and over complicated, if a customer cant use a storage heater they have no hop with them heaters! Expensive from the start, and use expensive electricity. I did look at their unvented tanks and thought they were ok but never got the chance to use one.

 

[wozz]

Given that it's late and E54 is involved I am perhaps unwisely going to put my money where my mouth is.
its a forum its what we are here to do
The sales patter for modern electric heaters and boilers seems to be based around the near 100% efficiency figure in the advertising.

My argument is and always has been that the inefficiencies in electric heating are before it gets to the point of utilisation.
And those inefficiencies are still paid for by the end user. erm so where are these in efficiencies going and what form of energy are they? heat?

Storage heaters are generally inefficiently used by the homeowner and consequently they rely on the very expensive convector part of the heater at peak rates. Nearly all storage heaters around here are as old as time and have no convector.

All other usage is charged at a much higher rate as only the storage heaters get the benefit of the off peak rate, 2 meters, 1 through teleswitch, everything else through the other meter. really depends on your tariff, when i looked at changing my tariff two rate peak wasnt much different to my average cost.

I live in a remote area so mains gas isn't an option it's either oil, LPG or electric heating. Bulk storage is rare around here Ive always assumed due to the cost.

When asked by customers what I use I have to tell them My heating and hot water is from a log burner with the option of using the Immersion for the hot water. Sounds ok if you have the time and routine some love them used the H2 system a couple of times.

I can see that some electric radiators have the advantage of dispersing their heat over a longer period of time depending on what is between the element and the air but I fail to see how this can make them more efficient. dont follow

All I can see is the homeowner turning them up full til the place warms up and then opening a window when it's too hot. Eduction is the answer then not rip the system out and put a more complex one in.

I have quite literally lost count of the number of times I've been called out because of storage heaters not working. Ive done a fair few but usually after years of service with no maintenance not many things we fit last as long as the old ones.

Mostly it's the shutters fully open all the time and the windows open in the morning. Surprise surprise it's freezing at night.Education?

Im not a hater just i havnt got on with them and their marketing is just baffling people, didnt they get done by the ASA for their marketing figures?

Six characters

 

[Knobhead]

It’s a small maisonette not a sauna!

I don’t recall the OP asking about electricity charges and tariffs.

Or type of heaters.

 

[nickblake]

Someone has been influenced by all the company snake oil hype!! lol!!

These things as i remember, are bloody expensive radiators (around 600 quid for a 2KW radiator) and are actually no better than any other manufactures products.

Heard all this old hype before, like any electrical radiator/heater, you basically get 1KW of heat output, for every KW of input. Anyone telling you any different, is is giving you a load of snake oil....

they are about the same price as a storage heater believe you me they are good an efficient , they heat up a room very quickly and keep it there i have installed them in a bunk house replacing storage heaters , it virtually halved the running costs and with a built in frost stat stops the place from freezing to

 

[SPARTYKUS]

Best way to save on heating is to seal all drafts and line every room with half a metre of celotex. Probably wouldn't need a heater then, just a match

 

[Engineer54]

they are about the same price as a storage heater believe you me they are good an efficient , they heat up a room very quickly and keep it there i have installed them in a bunk house replacing storage heaters , it virtually halved the running costs and with a built in frost stat stops the place from freezing to

If the Ronite heaters can heat up a room very quickly and halves the running cost of storage heaters, then so can any other similar rated/spec'd wall mounted convection heater, that cost a fraction of these over priced units. As i understand it, the company has had more than a few run-in's/dealings with the Standards people about the unsubstantiated inflated claims being made for these heaters.

But if you're happy paying out that sort of money for a wall mounted convector heater, happy days to you!! lol!!