Hi all! Old(ish) spark looking to go it alone but unsure where to start?

[M-B-Electrical-Services]

Hi guys.

I definitely intend to use the re-wire as a project for the assessor to take a look at.
I've just popped over the road to a neighbour to borrow a wood saw and mentioned me starting up on my own and he immediately said he wants an EICR to be carried out (was last inspected in 2004) so theres another one for the assessor.

Theres a few youtubers out there mentioning £50 per point so I guess thats a good starting point.

 

[M-B-Electrical-Services]

Hi all.

I thought I would write a "year later report".

Things are going quite well, I have a good number of clients with regular referrals offered and repeat work off the same clients.
I obviously passed my NAPIT assessment and am about to renew but not with NAPIT, I've decided to with NIC/EIC as the name is recognised more readily by potential customers. Certain contracts that you can tender for will specify NIC as a "must have" so that's the reasoning behind that decision.

I've made a few mistakes along the way and I've learnt the hard way about trusting people to pay me!!
One particular client made me wait over 3 months to be paid a £3k bill! It was only the threat of legal action that finally saw the cash start to flow towards me. I'll never work for that particular client again regardless of the amount and value of the work offered.

I have learnt a HUGE amount in this one year than I've learnt in the last 10 years as everything is now on ME and my business so I need to know what I'm talking about although I have the ability to fluff my way through things at times.
Paperwork and book-keeping has really been a big eye opener and that is something I was not familiar with but now I'm starting to get to grips with it.

One thing I don't understand though, these you-tube electricians who post daily.........how do they find the time!! If I'm not on site, I'm at home doing paperwork so god knows how they fit all that in???

I sometimes sit and wonder, am I doing enough? I am working as hard as I need to? How are the other self employed lads getting on and are they swamped with work or struggling? Self doubt is horrible thing.

I have recently been looking into getting into the industrial side of things but I've no experience with motors/control panels/ aux circuits etc etc so I'm not sure how that will work?!?!?!

Anyhow, hope you're all doing ok.

Mike.

 

[DPG]

Hi all.

I thought I would write a "year later report".

Things are going quite well, I have a good number of clients with regular referrals offered and repeat work off the same clients.
I obviously passed my NAPIT assessment and am about to renew but not with NAPIT, I've decided to with NIC/EIC as the name is recognised more readily by potential customers. Certain contracts that you can tender for will specify NIC as a "must have" so that's the reasoning behind that decision.

I've made a few mistakes along the way and I've learnt the hard way about trusting people to pay me!!
One particular client made me wait over 3 months to be paid a £3k bill! It was only the threat of legal action that finally saw the cash start to flow towards me. I'll never work for that particular client again regardless of the amount and value of the work offered.

I have learnt a HUGE amount in this one year than I've learnt in the last 10 years as everything is now on ME and my business so I need to know what I'm talking about although I have the ability to fluff my way through things at times.
Paperwork and book-keeping has really been a big eye opener and that is something I was not familiar with but now I'm starting to get to grips with it.

One thing I don't understand though, these you-tube electricians who post daily.........how do they find the time!! If I'm not on site, I'm at home doing paperwork so god knows how they fit all that in???

I sometimes sit and wonder, am I doing enough? I am working as hard as I need to? How are the other self employed lads getting on and are they swamped with work or struggling? Self doubt is horrible thing.

I have recently been looking into getting into the industrial side of things but I've no experience with motors/control panels/ aux circuits etc etc so I'm not sure how that will work?!?!?!

Anyhow, hope you're all doing ok.

Mike.

Nice one. Thanks for the update.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Ten clients at £100.00hr is better than a thousand clients at £10.00hr, less quoting, less paper work, less chasing to be paid, more time for Golf, it's a mind set thing not letting it get to you for loosing out to the chaps that undercut you, when the client says "but so and so quoted much less" just reply "let them do the job, but when it all goes haywire and you need it correcting, you know where I am" don't tell the client, but remember the remedial's will be an extra to the original quote.

 

[M-B-Electrical-Services]

Ten clients at £100.00hr is better than a thousand clients at £10.00hr, less quoting, less paper work, less chasing to be paid, more time for Golf, it's a mind set thing not letting it get to you for loosing out to the chaps that undercut you, when the client says "but so and so quoted much less" just reply "let them do the job, but when it all goes haywire and you need it correcting, you know where I am" don't tell the client, but remember the remedial's will be an extra to the original quote.

Hi Mike.

Very True! I prefer to keep a small but reliable list of regular clients that I know are good payers. The bad ones get deleted off my file system and stored in my phone as "bad payer" so I know who the baddies are.

I've been undercut many times and at first I took offence to it but over time, you come to realise that it's just the nature of the game.
Some of the prices quoted are ridiculous though and you wonder how it is at all possible to get the work completed at such low prices in comparison to the price I gave but I don't budge as I know my prices are fair.
I feel sorry for some of these people as I know that in order for such low prices to be realistic, there HAS to be some hidden extras somewhere that the poor unfortunate client will soon find out about.

Another thing that has really shocked me is how many dodgy so called "electricians" there are out there! Some of the standards of workmanship are truly appalling!

 

[Mike Johnson]

I used to negotiate contracts for a major construction company, with clients and sub-contractors, we would often under quote a complicated contract knowing that the extra's would cover overall costs, (called buying the contract) with sub-contractors it was always negotiating at final contract placing for a main contractors discount, usually ending at about 7.5% off the submitted quote during tender, this was seen as normal practice, when I started my own company it surprised many main contractors that I knew how the system worked and would up my quote to compensate for the discount they thought they where negotiating, I always submitted a very expensive day-works rate that did not load the overall tender price, again knowing that a complicated contract would have lots of extras.

It's not just electricians that have bad standards, it applies to most trades in the construction industry, including Architects.

 

[UNG]

Another thing that has really shocked me is how many dodgy so called "electricians" there are out there! Some of the standards of workmanship are truly appalling!

A good mate of mine is the manager at one of the local wholesalers, I was chatting to him a few weeks ago over a beer and he was telling me that they frequently get "electricians" coming into the counter asking for advice on how to tackle and what materials they will need to do jobs. Is this why there is so much poor workmanship around

 

[M-B-Electrical-Services]

A good mate of mine is the manager at one of the local wholesalers, I was chatting to him a few weeks ago over a beer and he was telling me that they frequently get "electricians" coming into the counter asking for advice on how to tackle and what materials they will need to do jobs. Is this why there is so much poor workmanship around

That's a tough one to answer correctly because of the amount of variables. Generally, I find the older stuff (Wylex 3036 consumer units) are done to a high standard so when I see those, it doesn't concern me other than the lack of additional protection. Its when I see kitchens/bathrooms fitted in the last 10/15 years or so ago. Most of the faults I find are in a kitchen or bathroom fitted by a non qualified person. A lot of it comes down to laziness and just not giving a monkeys because they work for somebody else and are unhappy in their work as they're expected to do multiple jobs a day for not much money.

There's so many more reasons but you get the idea.

 

[Mike Johnson]

How can anyone think that asking counter assistants is going to get you the correct information to carry out any work, if they knew they would be out installing not serving.

 

[UNG]

How can anyone think that asking counter assistants is going to get you the correct information to carry out any work, if they knew they would be out installing not serving.

The wholesaler my mate works at have a rule of not offering any advice other than suggesting alternatives to something they have been asked for to avoid any comebacks on them
After being told by my mate what is happening I've had it confirmed by a couple of other wholesalers they get similar requests for advice on how to do jobs from supposedly qualified "electricians"

 

[pc1966]

The wholesaler my mate works at have a rule of not offering any advice other than suggesting alternatives to something they have been asked for to avoid any comebacks on them
After being told by my mate what is happening I've had it confirmed by a couple of other wholesalers they get similar requests for advice on how to do jobs from supposedly qualified "electricians"

I would expect to see that at B&Q or Screwfix, etc, less so at the wholesale outlets.

The ones I deal with are quite good at letting you know if there are new or related products around, also sometimes on ones to avoid due to high returns (a few of the guys working there are ex-sparks I think), but I am sure they would draw a similar line about offering advice and actually doing it!

 

[nicebutdim]

I would expect to see that at B&Q or Screwfix, etc, less so at the wholesale outlets.

This one issue is that makes me avoid Screwfix where possible. Standing behind someone asking inane questions about item after item, in the vain hope of receiving expert advice. Does this happen in Argos or other catalogue stores (if any exist)?

Screwfix decided to change my account to Electricfix a while back and I recently did use that counter to avoid a store full of people. Felt bad jumping the queue after years of patiently waiting, but not so bad that I won't happily do it again

 

[M-B-Electrical-Services]

The wholesaler my mate works at have a rule of not offering any advice other than suggesting alternatives to something they have been asked for to avoid any comebacks on them
After being told by my mate what is happening I've had it confirmed by a couple of other wholesalers they get similar requests for advice on how to do jobs from supposedly qualified "electricians"

I've heard this a couple of times and I'll only chime in if I know for certain that the information given is incorrect. Although the person asking the question may not be qualified to do the job, who am I to question it? After all, it's their client that didn't have the forethought to properly vet the electrician they've ordered to do the work.

It is worrying though when you overhear conversations like this. You see it on site too quite often. Electrician hidden away in a room watching a YouTube video on how to do the task he/she have been given.
Nothing wrong with that of course, I've done it myself to "freshen up".

 

[Mike Johnson]

Queued behind a chap in TLC a few year back who was ordering lots of T&E, as he completed his purchase he just happened to mention he was taking it to France to re-wire the holiday home he had just bought, I saved him from a very expensive mistake.

 

[M-B-Electrical-Services]

Queued behind a chap in TLC a few year back who was ordering lots of T&E, as he completed his purchase he just happened to mention he was taking it to France to re-wire the holiday home he had just bought, I saved him from a very expensive mistake.

Is T&E not generally used in France?

 

[nicebutdim]

Is T&E not generally used in France?

You haven't just bought a load to rewire your holiday home?

 

[M-B-Electrical-Services]

You haven't just bought a load to rewire your holiday home?

For a bright spark I ain't so bright...

 

[Mike Johnson]

Is T&E not generally used in France?

Nope, all conductors must be of equal c/c double insulated and in conduit, can be flexible conduit, lots of other differences as well.

 

[nicebutdim]

Nope, all conductors must be of equal c/c double insulated and in conduit, can be flexible conduit, lots of other differences as well.

Could Irish T&E be used, with equal CSA for all conductors and insulated CPC?

 

[Mike Johnson]

I suppose it could, but it would have to be in conduit, the French are strict on the free air space inside a conduit that must be left, this would mean going up a size in conduit, adding to the expense, the regulations do not cater for Irish T&E so the tables in the regulations can't be used, so I think possibly not.

 

[M-B-Electrical-Services]

Nope, all conductors must be of equal c/c double insulated and in conduit, can be flexible conduit, lots of other differences as well.

Wow! That's really interesting! I'll have to look into this.
Thanks for the info!

 

[pc1966]

Wow! That's really interesting! I'll have to look into this.
Thanks for the info!

If you look at other country's rules you often see quite different approaches.

Some better than UK, some worse. But usually as a combined set they make sense, worst cases is when someone applies country X practices in an installation in country Y and something serious is missing due to that. Also next person to have to deal with the Frankenstein setup goes WTF?!

 

[M-B-Electrical-Services]

If you look at other country's rules you often see quite different approaches.

Some better than UK, some worse. But usually as a combined set they make sense, worst cases is when someone applies country X practices in an installation in country Y and something serious is missing due to that. Also next person to have to deal with the Frankenstein setup goes WTF?!

I have relatives in a America so I've seen their lash-ups and I totally agree with the flexi-con within the walls for wiring.
I try to adopt it where possible for my installs. It just adds that added bit of security for the cables for enthusiastic homeowners with hammers and nails....

 

[Mike Johnson]

Wow! That's really interesting! I'll have to look into this.
Thanks for the info!

If you really want to know about French electrical installations you can't go far wrong with this book: L'installation électrique - D.Fedullo, T.Gallauziaux - 6ème édition - Librairie Eyrolles - https://www.eyrolles.com/BTP/Livre/l-installation-electrique-9782212674941/ Waffles a bit, but the electrical circuits are accurate i.e dual MCB's in at the top and out at the bottom, no more that eight MCB's to any RCD, no more that twelve sockets on a 2.5 radial and eight on a 1.5 radial, no ring mains, individual radial for most white goods, bathroom extract, min six sockets above a worktop in the kitchen, you get the picture how different it can be.

 

[captaincaveman]

This one issue is that makes me avoid Screwfix where possible. Standing behind someone asking inane questions about item after item, in the vain hope of receiving expert advice. Does this happen in Argos or other catalogue stores (if any exist)?

Screwfix decided to change my account to Electricfix a while back and I recently did use that counter to avoid a store full of people. Felt bad jumping the queue after years of patiently waiting, but not so bad that I won't happily do it again

The best I recollect was a DIYer in Screwfix asking for a light bulb. The expression on his face when the counter guy asked what type...

 

[Mike Johnson]

The best I recollect was a DIYer in Screwfix asking for a light bulb. The expression on his face when the counter guy asked what type...

And now days he could be asked what whiteness and temperature now that could really confuse.

 

[M-B-Electrical-Services]

If you really want to know about French electrical installations you can't go far wrong with this book: L'installation électrique - D.Fedullo, T.Gallauziaux - 6ème édition - Librairie Eyrolles - https://www.eyrolles.com/BTP/Livre/l-installation-electrique-9782212674941/ Waffles a bit, but the electrical circuits are accurate i.e dual MCB's in at the top and out at the bottom, no more that eight MCB's to any RCD, no more that twelve sockets on a 2.5 radial and eight on a 1.5 radial, no ring mains, individual radial for most white goods, bathroom extract, min six sockets above a worktop in the kitchen, you get the picture how different it can be.

Wow. This is really interesting! Their limitations on circuit design seem sound although I haven't looked into it yet.

I feel our way of doing things is based on a "make do and mend" mentality which stems from WW1 & 2 where resources were limited yet the industry we are in seem determined to cling to the past as far as consumer unit/distribution board and circuit design are concerned.

Intriguing.........

 

[Mike Johnson]

FYI a typical distribution board and circuit diagram although RCBO's are used for the White goods, rare in rural France.

 

[M-B-Electrical-Services]

FYI a typical distribution board and circuit diagram although RCBO's are used for the White goods, rare in rural France.

Ahhh. Very different indeed!
Install cost would be significantly higher if we started using these consumer units!
Imagine trying to fit one of those in a cramped understairs cupboard!

 

[pc1966]

Ahhh. Very different indeed!
Install cost would be significantly higher if we started using these consumer units!
Imagine trying to fit one of those in a cramped understairs cupboard!

You also have to remember that the UK and, for example, France started out with different practices but by time you get to a certain critical size of infrastructure you are kind of stuck with those practices.

The UK had one major revision after WW2 and that was the introduction of the fused plug for domestic circuits to 13A. That was partly driven by the need to save cost on copper and CU size, but it was also a far sighted appreciation that we would need a lot of sockets in the future and huge numbers of small radial circuits are a really inefficient use of resources. I don't think they understood just how many folks now use, but they realised it would be more than one or maybe two per room!

From that we have the 32A RFC as well as the options for off 20A / 2.5mm and 32A / 4mm radials (plus the odd 32-45A cooker circuit's socket) all with unlimited numbers of sockets, subject to a sane expected total usage / coverage area / volt drop of course.

The other big difference that @Mike Johnson mentioned is they use DP MCBs as historically they did not have neutral well-referenced to earth, where as the UK with is polarised plugs (even in 5A / 15A round pin days) had established that pre-WW2 (though you will see some very old UK boards and cut-outs with fused neutrals - a big non-no these days).

Also most of the EU seems to be on TT earthing, so DP VOELCB/RCDs have been an absolute necessity for years, where as the UK with its TN-S (and recently TN-C-S) along with a very strong design requirement on Zs/disconnection times was content with line-only fuses/MCBs for fault disconnection and slower to adopt RCDs until deaths from lawnmowers slicing cables in the garden, etc, became a significant issue.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Imagine trying to fit one of those in a cramped understairs cupboard!

French regulations say that all CU's have to be accessible, that's why you see them in living rooms on the wall, very explicit when putting then in a cupboard, have to face outwards and must have a clear 600mm in front of them.

 

[pc1966]

French regulations say that all CU's have to be accessible, that's why you see them in living rooms on the wall, very explicit when putting then in a cupboard, have to face outwards and must have a clear 600mm in front of them.

Now if only the UK had adopted that requirement!

Along with a decent space around it, instead of a 4-way Wylex fuse board in a biscuit tin sized location

 

[pc1966]

Another thing you see in the EU (as well as in industrial stuff in the UK) is they commonly put DIN rail mounted control gear in the CU, usually stuff like heating timers and toggle relays for light circuits, etc. That is something I like.

Here we occasionally see a bell transformer in a CU but even that is unusual.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Yes the toggle relays (available as electronic) only require a single circuit for multiple momentary switches much simpler.

 

[captaincaveman]

Yes the toggle relays (available as electronic) only require a single circuit for multiple momentary switches much simpler.

As you obviously have a good knowledge of French kit can you tell me what Bs 3871 type this button press breaker is for earth fault impedence testing lol?

 

[Mike Johnson]

View attachment 96784

As you obviously have a good knowledge of French kit can you tell me what Bs 3871 type this button press breaker is for earth fault impedence testing lol?

It's for turning on Christmas tree lights in Blackpool, but the lever is missing, lets not go into spark arrest systems.

 

[M-B-Electrical-Services]

View attachment 96784

As you obviously have a good knowledge of French kit can you tell me what Bs 3871 type this button press breaker is for earth fault impedence testing lol?

Think it's a Type 3 if I'm not mistaken.