Illegal Lights?

[jimmy_one_ball]

Hi Guys

I'm a recently qualified electrician trying to get myself up and running and recently had a small job at a local solicitors office. They wanted me to look at a couple of old, buzzing, 6ft 70W twin flourescent light fixtures which didn't respond to new tubes or starters so I replaced them like for like with new ones. Whilst I was there I noticed there was only one or two double socket outlets in each of the rooms (old building) and as you can imagine there were extension leads everywhere causing obvious trip hazards. In one room there was a daisy chain of three extensions with a multiway adapter in the last one with all the computers and printers etc plugged in.

Green PAT test labels were plastered everywhere (another story!). Without going into the effect this could have on Zs readings I told the office manager this was bad and she agreed that I could install extra socket outlets where needed. So I've been going in on weekends to minimise disruption and doing a bit at a time, all good so far but then one of the girls in the office (who I know) told me that her boyfreinds Dad is a spark and she just happened to mentioned to him what I was doing. He said the lights I installed were illegal as they need to be a certain type for offices with computers, not the discharge flourescent ones that I installed, and that extension leads are fine and that I'm just raking up business! Talk about shattering my confidence!! One of the extension leads was a coiled up type, which has the effect of cable grouping and was a fire risk, or so I thought.

Is this bloke just being a **** or am I right to do what I am doing? He's making me feel like a complete **** but he shouldn't be banding words like illegal around! I test and certify every circuit I'm working on and all socket outlet spurs are from an RCD type FCU. I appreciate anyones thoughts on this, thanks in advance.

J.O.B

 

[needasparks]

Looks like the BS police are on to you. run before he ties you up in T&E.

 

[Deleted member 9648]

No such thing as illegal....but H&S requirements dictate that cat2 type fittings should be installed in areas where computers are used....I guess Mr Bullpoo may be referring to this if you have fitted normal Flu's without cat2 diffusers.

 

[needasparks]

I believe that was before flat screen monitors were invented. Have not checked if it was upgraded as you tend to fit them anyway.

 

[Richard Burns]

Take it slowly and do not immediately worry and do not take any responses to heart.

If they are illegal then the fluorescents would have already been "illegal" before as you replaced like for like
As far as i am aware fluorescent lights are suitable for use in an office. However there are lighting design considerations for office users to prevent glare and excessive light intensity, but these requirements are usually a more specialised approach. It is highly possible that the lights could be causing incorrect light angles and reflection patterns but this was not your remit: redesigning the lighting.

Excessive use of extension leads is a bad idea as this increases the resistance of the circuit and can lead to overheating of cables and potential overloading of circuits. The building regulations advise having sufficient socket outlets to supply the equipment expected to be in use. Consideration being taken of the usual length of flexible cable supplied with such equipment.

If you are talking to the electrician then politely ask if he could write down clearly the contraventions of the law, specifying which laws, that he thinks you have done so that you can ensure that there are no problems.

Do not panic!

 

[richardsolway]

Everything Richard Burns Said.....can't really add more, apart from a coil type lead has wound and unwound max load ratings on it. If in doubt, unreel it fully but still gives a higher resistance if daisy chained!!!!

 

[La Poste]

I found this, maybe it ill help:

Is 'category 2' lighting a legal requirement?

"The term 'category 2' is no longer used by the CIBSE. It was used to describe a particular design of luminaire (light fitting) that could be employed to prevent reflections of the luminaire on the display screen. Unfortunately, in doing so, these luminaires can produce a gloomy environment if used on their own without consideration of surface reflectances. In most offices, particularly where modern computers with bright screens are used, such reflections are not likely to occur and therefore it is not necessary to specify this type of luminaire."

The Chartered Institute of
Building Services Engineers (CIBSE)

Welcome to Adobe GoLive 4

 

[Mark_Burgess]

To repeat what the others are saying, he is probably referring to Cat 2 louvre lights like this.

View attachment 9923
These are about £35 + Vat for twin 5fts from TLC.

 

[Mark_Burgess]

Sounds like he is peed off that you got the job!!

 

[The Ranger]

you need to read the below, and the office needs to conform to what this is basically saying

There is a lot of mis-understanding about the laws about lighting at work - especially amongst employers and managers. There is a tendency to look at lighting issues by carrying out levels surveys (often expressed in 'lux' measurements) rather than being influenced by the opinions and comments of those who have to work in the lighting provided. This does not meet with the legal requirements for lighting at work.
Legal requirements on lighting are contained within the Workplace (Health, Safety and Welfare) Regulations 1992 and, specifically for those working with computers etc., in the Health and Safety (Display Screen Equipment) Regulations 1992.
Workplace (Health, Safety and Welfare) Regulations 1992
Regulation 8(1) states that "Every workplace shall have suitable and sufficient lighting."
Health and Safety (Display Screen Equipment) Regulations 1992
Sections on lighting are contained in the Schedule of minimum requirements under regulations 3. It states:
Any room lighting or task lighting provided shall ensure satisfactory lighting conditions and an appropriate contrast between the screen and the background environment, taking into account the type of work and the vision requirements of the operator or user.
So, it is clear from both of these that the key requirement in determining whether lighting levels are adequate is not a light meter, but input from the workers themselves. If they are not content with the light levels, it is likely that the lighting does not meet the legal requirements of the key laws, regardless of whether lighting lux levels are within the design ranges.

 

[the pict]

good god tell this ----- to shove his nose up his own arse and ask him what the light level is, and any office manger who does not want extensions lead all over the joint is a proon
Pict

 

[La Poste]

I've been thinking about lots of extension leads.Would they effect the R1+R2 readings and in the worse case scenario effect the disconnection times of the protective devices especially if the protective devices are MCB's

.Long extension leads may effect the value of fault current flowing if there was a line to earth fault at the extremity of the lead, this fault current due to the increased resistance of the extension leads may not be enough to trip the MCB in the required time to comply with the Regs.

I would definitely recommend installing extra sockets.

Edit it would blow the fuse in the plug :6:

But I do agree with the Pict.
Ask this guy if he can bend over and sniff his own @ss.

 

[jimmy_one_ball]

Hey many thanks you guys for your fantastic responses! I'm gonna crack on with the sockets and bin as many extension leads as possible. Thanks for your help and encouragement, you've restored my confidence, and I'll be back badgering you all for advice in the future if thats OK.

Thanks again!

 

[Deleted member 3072]

With regard to the sockets and extension leads. Every time you plug in an extension lead you do add extra resistance to the circuit (R1+R2) which affects the Zs Value at the piece of equipment that is plugged into the extension lead socket. This could affect the disconnection time and therefore might no longer comply with the regulations and be dangerous.

 

[telectrix]

think it's all been said. the phrase " sour grapes " springs to mind. ask mr. bull poo to quote the specific regulations/laws that he thinks you are breaking and back up his allegations with documentation.

 

[UNG]

I hate the way the term illegal is used and bandied about for something that is non compliant with regulations that are not law, but then again non compliant doesn't have the frightening ring to it when you are trying to sell something or trying to take the opposition out of the equation

With regard to the extension leads daisy chained my concern would be the fire hazard they present and there may be some issues under the Electricity at Work Act, do they have a fire alarm if not may be you could sell them one

 

[mogga]

best person to get quote on legalities are Currys,comet installation guys Iv had a couple of instances where ILLEGAL has been thrown in
as for CAT 2 you could advise the office manager that you RECOMEND fitting cat 2 diffuser due to the computer screens ( just recomend and point out the flicker effect ect ) but dont worry if she says no AS for extensions aisy chaining is a big nono but most offices Iv seen tend to have extensions within the desk for all equipment on the desk its when tom dick and harry add their own stuff that daisy chaining becomes the norm

 

[electromonkey]

That electrician's just put the wrong light fitting up. That's illegal. Quick, phone the police. That man should be arrested!!!

 

[The Ranger]

With regard to the sockets and extension leads. Every time you plug in an extension lead you do add extra resistance to the circuit (R1+R2) which affects the Zs Value at the piece of equipment that is plugged into the extension lead socket. This could affect the disconnection time and therefore might no longer comply with the regulations and be dangerous.

While I agree technically thats what could happen at what point did the extensions become part of the fixed installation? I don't think you can go down the non compliant using the example above but I do think you can advise that it's bad practice.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Take it slowly and do not immediately worry and do not take any responses to heart.

If they are illegal then the fluorescents would have already been "illegal" before as you replaced like for like
As far as i am aware fluorescent lights are suitable for use in an office. However there are lighting design considerations for office users to prevent glare and excessive light intensity, but these requirements are usually a more specialised approach. It is highly possible that the lights could be causing incorrect light angles and reflection patterns but this was not your remit: redesigning the lighting.

Excessive use of extension leads is a bad idea as this increases the resistance of the circuit and can lead to overheating of cables and potential overloading of circuits. The building regulations advise having sufficient socket outlets to supply the equipment expected to be in use. Consideration being taken of the usual length of flexible cable supplied with such equipment.

If you are talking to the electrician then politely ask if he could write down clearly the contraventions of the law, specifying which laws, that he thinks you have done so that you can ensure that there are no problems.

Do not panic!

well i wouldn`t be asking this guy anything politely.........i would however make it clear his interference wasn`t required, helpful or needed and to politely **** ***!!....I mean who`s this guy anyway...the electrical police?....He just dont like it because YOU got the work and not him...thats all it is....he will have been aware of this lot here and no doubt saw it as HIS work...lol.....so in his eyes you`v "nicked it" off him...lol.....funny really innit...he should have got there quicker...lol.....