Mandatory electrical checks (Scotland) - wish you did business here?

[baldelectrician]

God bless the Scottish Government

They are about to release MANDATORY guidance that requires ALL landlords to have electrical checks from 31st December 2015.

The guidance will be released at the end of February and will be effective in December.

There will be a requirement to use a NICEIC or SELECT electrician - if a client uses another electrician that is not registered they will have to carry out due diligence ( they will have to ask for lots of info such as copies of insurance, competence etc)

i reckon that over 90% of landlords do not have the electrics correct now, this will make a lot more of them bring the properties up to a more reasonable standard.

more work lies ahead.....

 

[Dcf]

there is also guidance (soon to be legislation apparently) for smoke detectors in the living room and hallways plus a heat in the kitchen
to bring it in line with the building regs i would imagine
only fly in the ointment that said smoke detectors would present ,would be a building warrant for work in a flat which would be more expense for the landlord
the agents i work for usually insist on a eicr being done before the property gets taken on.
you still get some tight arses moaning that its not law etc etc
more work in some manky garrets for me then!

 

[Octopus]

More EICR's not worth the paper that they are written on heading down the toilet!

 

[Dcf]

why so cynical murdoch?
there nothing like a bit of ill thought out bureaucracy to keep the wheels of the truck of industry greased is there?

 

[Octopus]

why so cynical murdoch?
there nothing like a bit of ill thought out bureaucracy to keep the wheels of the truck of industry greased is there?

Just take a look at PAT testing!

 

[Andy78]

God bless the Scottish Government

They are about to release MANDATORY guidance that requires ALL landlords to have electrical checks from 31st December 2015.

The guidance will be released at the end of February and will be effective in December.

There will be a requirement to use a NICEIC or SELECT electrician - if a client uses another electrician that is not registered they will have to carry out due diligence ( they will have to ask for lots of info such as copies of insurance, competence etc)

i reckon that over 90% of landlords do not have the electrics correct now, this will make a lot more of them bring the properties up to a more reasonable standard.

more work lies ahead.....

Mandatory electrical checks ? In what form, or is this conveniently not included in the legislation ?
It's backed by the NICEIC is it ?, the body that brought you the landlords visual safety inspection, or in other words the poor coat of looking at with no testing at all that is no guarantee of any electrical safety whatsoever.

 

[baldelectrician]

Just take a look at PAT testing!

The problem is the thought process amongst politicians. one I spoke to thought the smoke detector guidance was all that was needed- I did point out that before calling her I called 5 letting a agents asking about properties to let and smoke detectors inside - every one did not have the required amount and 3/5 did not know about the 2013 guidance.

I know that the current guidance on electrics was made in conjunction with the industry and it is pretty watertight as far as it can go ( due to EU law it can't make SELECT / NICEIC mandatory, but they can make it pretty tight. - such as requiring non registered electricians to provide the landlord with proof of competence )

This follows on from the mandatory registration of landlords and the PRHP ( a panel that can force landlords to do repairs and even have them removed from registration).
They can require a landlord to use a letting agent to manage their properties if they don't do a good enough job themselves.

 

[baldelectrician]

Mandatory electrical checks ? In what form, or is this conveniently not included in the legislation ?
It's backed by the NICEIC is it ?, the body that brought you the landlords visual safety inspection, or in other words the poor coat of looking at with no testing at all that is no guarantee of any electrical safety whatsoever.

Its an EICR

 

[Andy78]

Its an EICR

Is there legislation as to the frequency of these EICRs ?

 

[baldelectrician]

5 years, don't know the caveats yet

 

[Andy78]

Sounds well thought out on the face of it, although I share Murdoch's fear of increased drive bys with the emphasis on work generation rather than honest accounts of electrical safety.

 

[Engineer54]

I know that the current guidance on electrics was made in conjunction with the industry and it is pretty watertight as far as it can go ( due to EU law it can't make SELECT / NICEIC mandatory, but they can make it pretty tight. - such as requiring non registered electricians to provide the landlord with proof of competence )

The overall Legislation makes good sense and probably long overdue, and not just in Scotland...

Unfortunately it's floored before it starts then, since when has the likes of NICEIC or any other Part P scam been able to prove the competence of it's members?? If anything you could say the exact opposite is far more likely to be true!! A far better requirement would be JIB/SJIB registration, that'll keep all the NICEIC and other Scam chancers out of the equation at least...

 

[baldelectrician]

The overall Legislation makes good sense and probably long overdue, and not just in Scotland...

Unfortunately it's floored before it starts then, since when has the likes of NICEIC or any other Part P scam been able to prove the competence of it's members?? If anything you could say the exact opposite is far more likely to be true!! A far better requirement would be JIB/SJIB registration, that'll keep all the NICEIC and other Scam chancers out of the equation at least...

Remember there is no Part-P in Scotland, so its only FULL NIC or SELECT regiatration that will be accepted
The criteria for non registered electricians means the electrician will have to provide (and the landlord will have to ask for and keep) all the info, which is mainly along the lines of the enrolment criteria for full membership

 

[GB.Kayak]

The overall Legislation makes good sense and probably long overdue, and not just in Scotland...

Unfortunately it's floored before it starts then, since when has the likes of NICEIC or any other Part P scam been able to prove the competence of it's members?? If anything you could say the exact opposite is far more likely to be true!! A far better requirement would be JIB/SJIB registration, that'll keep all the NICEIC and other Scam chancers out of the equation at least...

Eng54 ... floor as in T&G or butt jointed, or flaw as in imperfect? ;-))

 

[GB.Kayak]

God bless the Scottish Government

They are about to release MANDATORY guidance that requires ALL landlords to have electrical checks from 31st December 2015.

The guidance will be released at the end of February and will be effective in December.

There will be a requirement to use a NICEIC or SELECT electrician - if a client uses another electrician that is not registered they will have to carry out due diligence ( they will have to ask for lots of info such as copies of insurance, competence etc)

i reckon that over 90% of landlords do not have the electrics correct now, this will make a lot more of them bring the properties up to a more reasonable standard.

more work lies ahead.....

MANDATORY guidance, is something of a contradiction in terms ... are they introducing legislation, that is the law and therefore enforceable, or are they releasing a new set of updated guidelines?

 

[Octopus]

Unless the schemes and/or Government in Scotland are going to fund "bodies" to do spot checks AND hold people to account NOTHING will change.

Almost any muppet can sign up to a scheme and pay the monies and get a "badge"

 

[baldelectrician]

MANDATORY guidance, is something of a contradiction in terms ... are they introducing legislation, that is the law and therefore enforceable, or are they releasing a new set of updated guidelines?

The Housing Scotland Act 2014 is the enabling act.
The guidance stems from the act and is mandated by the act- the guidance is mandatory.

It works the same way as the building standards act- the act enables the government to introduce guidance and standards without going to parliament each time they want to change a small item

The act (section 23) amends the 2006 act to add provisions for electrical inspections.

Link to the act above

The act does other things, such as remove the right to buy and regulate letting agents - more info on the link above.

 

[GB.Kayak]

The Housing Scotland Act 2014 is the enabling act.
The guidance stems from the act and is mandated by the act- the guidance is mandatory.

It works the same way as the building standards act- the act enables the government to introduce guidance and standards without going to parliament each time they want to change a small item

The act (section 23) amends the 2006 act to add provisions for electrical inspections.

Link to the act above

The act does other things, such as remove the right to buy and regulate letting agents - more info on the link above.

I shall await the guidance with interest! Despite my internet search for guidance related to the 2006 act, I have found little concrete information. The most directly informative document by the Electrical Safety Council is at the link ... http://www.landlords.org.uk/sites/default/files/electrical safety landlords scotland.pdf ... but there appears to be little in the formal government published documentation. If you know of any, other than the act itself, please would you publish the links?

 

[baldelectrician]

I shall await the guidance with interest! Despite my internet search for guidance related to the 2006 act, I have found little concrete information. The most directly informative document by the Electrical Safety Council is at the link ... http://www.landlords.org.uk/sites/default/files/electrical safety landlords scotland.pdf ... but there appears to be little in the formal government published documentation. If you know of any, other than the act itself, please would you publish the links?

I am waiting to find out- there will be a press release from the Sottish Government at the middle-end of February
i have heard rumours and have been told off the record that it will be almost mandatory to use SELECT / NICEIC lots of hoops for a LL who does not use a registered spark

 

[Engineer54]

Remember there is no Part-P in Scotland, so its only FULL NIC or SELECT regiatration that will be accepted
The criteria for non registered electricians means the electrician will have to provide (and the landlord will have to ask for and keep) all the info, which is mainly along the lines of the enrolment criteria for full membership

Is that supposed to mean something these days?? Still say the requirement should be based around the SJIB and it's grading, rather than let this parasite organisation cash in yet again
...

 

[Knobhead]

The overall Legislation makes good sense and probably long overdue, and not just in Scotland...

Unfortunately it's flawed before it starts then, since when has the likes of NICEIC or any other Part P scam been able to prove the competence of it's members?? If anything you could say the exact opposite is far more likely to be true!! A far better requirement would be JIB/SJIB registration, that'll keep all the NICEIC and other Scam chancers out of the equation at least...

You know my views on the JIB but I will admit they’re changing.

The NIC has gone down the pan along with the rest of the leaches in pursuit of profit so can’t be adjudged as the “preferred” operators of any scheme.

But any legislation that states certain affiliations is I think illegal.

 

[ian.settle1]

God bless the Scottish Government

They are about to release MANDATORY guidance that requires ALL landlords to have electrical checks from 31st December 2015.

The guidance will be released at the end of February and will be effective in December.

There will be a requirement to use a NICEIC or SELECT electrician - if a client uses another electrician that is not registered they will have to carry out due diligence ( they will have to ask for lots of info such as copies of insurance, competence etc)

i reckon that over 90% of landlords do not have the electrics correct now, this will make a lot more of them bring the properties up to a more reasonable standard.

more work lies ahead.....

They say NICEIC or Select until they have a legal challenge from one of the other scams which will mean that it will not be coming in at the end of the year.

 

[baldelectrician]

They say NICEIC or Select until they have a legal challenge from one of the other scams which will mean that it will not be coming in at the end of the year.

The requirement is to 'meet the standards of' NICEIC / SELECT.
If a contractor can prove they meet the standards then a landlord can use them- it's up to the landlord / letting agent ordering the work.

There is no mandatory requirement to use SELECT / NICIEC, but there is a requirement to use someone that can prove competence - thus promoting the possibility of higher standards.

 

[GB.Kayak]

They say NICEIC or Select until they have a legal challenge from one of the other scams which will mean that it will not be coming in at the end of the year.

This is not an issue, only NICEIC and Select operate in Scotland.

 

[baldelectrician]

http://www.prhpscotland.gov.uk/prhp...ES IN PRIVATE RENTED PROPERTY - 19 Feb 15.pdf

Link above

A copy of the guidance if a landlord does not use a SELECT or NICEIC electrician is below

 

[Octopus]

And who actually "polices" this??? the invisible fairy?

 

[baldelectrician]

And who actually "polices" this??? the invisible fairy?

Maybe
From December the landlord will be required to use a Scottih Government tenancy agreement (downloadable from the SG website), this will mention all these things and gas certs etc

The talk is (in time) that a rent case in court may no be valid if the LL did not have all the relevant paperwork- not following the rule = unable to take the tenant to court for rent arrears

 

[trev]

When this measure is exported south of the border all that will happen is that the race to the bottom will accelerate. Drive by testing will become cheaper and cheaper and eventually the ones who are doing the job properly will not be able to do them any more because of price. The end result will be that every property in the country will be in tip top condition electrically but the certification covering these places will not be worth the paper it's written on.
It will take another death or a series of deaths to happen before the government will issue an idiotic knee jerk reaction prompted by the r£gulatory bodies who will see this as another trough to stick their greedy snouts into.
Plus ca change, plus c'ést la méme chose.

 

[richy3333]

As usual there is a positive step in the industry towards doing something and the same old naysayers and whingers proffer the same old negativity. I find it amusing that those promoting the fact that only SJIB members should be able to do these reports are some of the same people that have written negatively about JIB in other threads that I have read this year. 'JIB's not like it used to be in the good old shiny happy days'.

I'm in an area where there is a lot of private rented accommodation and most of it in very poor condition. If I was doing 5% of the I&T work that many of these properties require I'd be a very busy man. So anything that helps bring up standards has to be applauded. At least we dont have DI's in Scotland, nor Part P so that is a good start. This also stops the Dangerous Dave's and Rodger the Bodger's that do drive by EICR's or can't I&T because they can't hold a pencil due to dragging their knuckles along the ground. There's far too many unregistered 'electricians' in Scotland, be that SJIB/NICEIC/SELECT and the more that can be done to filter these parasites out the better.

I have loads of photos of what these cowboys do - this is a recent bag-o-****e I found above a kitchen ceiling:

 

[Des 56]

This also stops the Dangerous Dave's and Rodger the Bodger's that do drive by EICR's or can't I&T because they can't hold a pencil due to dragging their knuckles along the ground.

The Niceic approved contractor needs one competent person to oversign the output of their existing knuckle draggers

Until its the knuckle dragger that can demonstrate competence,the existing standards will remain exactly the same

 

[baldelectrician]

Another government body, this time the Scottish government totally brainwashed by the NICEIC!!

As i stated before, this should be based on the actual electrician conducting these mandatory EICR's and that basically means holders of SJIB/JIB electrician cards. The only thing the NICEIC is really interested in, is additional paying members. As for them campaigning for tougher safety laws, perhaps they can explain purely on a safety basis, how the hell they can admit under qualified, inexperienced, skilless 17 day/Electrical Trainee into their membership, that can then legally go into peoples homes and start mucking around with electrical installations in England & Wales??

Perhaps these lay people in the Scottish government, should have spent a little more time researching this profit based organisation instead of being impressed with the totally inaccurate ''self patting on the back'' propaganda they love to spread around....

As a raving political nut I made a point of approaching my MSP when the legislation was on its way.
I didn't get direct input on the act as the act was an enabling act.

I did get in contact with the housing minister who put me in contact with her assistant who then put me in contact with the person drafting the guidance; I had the name, direct dial and email address of the person- very open government

I will continue this post on my thread in the arms as some things are best left in the arms...

As a member of the public (not a party member or any special case) one of the benefits of having the Scottish Parliament - a member of the public can have direct contact and input with a civil servant doing legislation or mandatory guidance.

I know that SELECT and NICEIC have direct contact with the Scottish Government-
One of the questions I asked to SELECT (did not ask NICEIC as I am not in their gang) was if the Scottish Parliament made things better or worse?
The answer
Before the Scottish Parliament (when Westminster ruled the waves) it was hard to get the point across - Westminster would send a civil servant up on the train from London (after a delay of weeks or more) who may have not read the brief, was not in that particular department , could not answer a question and they would not get an answer for weeks or months
After the Scottish Parliament they can call up the Parliament in the morning to ask a question, have a meeting with the minister / high level official the same day (or the next day) and get an answer very quickly (it was pointed out that they don't always get the answer they want).

The other thing about the Scottish Government is that ministers and civil servants tend to be shuffled about very infrequently, this means that people get to know and be proficient in their particular portfolio or brief.

It was a suggestion of mine to help define things when a landlord decided not to use a SELECT or NICEIC electrician, there were a few things taken out of the list but there is a great leap forward, this is partly the reason for Appendix A in the guidance.

I have a feeling that there will be more to come when the new mandatory tenancy agreement come in to force in December.

 

[richy3333]

This also stops the Dangerous Dave's and Rodger the Bodger's that do drive by EICR's or can't I&T because they can't hold a pencil due to dragging their knuckles along the ground.

The Niceic approved contractor needs one competent person to oversign the output of their existing knuckle draggers

Until its the knuckle dragger that can demonstrate competence,the existing standards will remain exactly the same

Not all AP's are larger contracting companies. I'm a sole trader. I got fed up with all the politics and bull**** that comes with working for others. The buck stops with me.

In all aspects of life we don't live in a perfect world but at least the Scottish government is doing something positive towards electrical safety and the industry no matter what the 'glass half full' people want to say. It's more than can be said for Westminster?

 

[Dcf]

The letting agents I work for have been putting forward guidance form the scottish government and local council about the additional requirement for smoke detectors and in the lounge and heat detectors in the kitchen.
most of the landlords are complying believe it or not and as such I have a backlog of jobs already.
so far so good
as for inspections ,the agents I work for will not take a new property on without an eicr being carried out first.
this has been the case for the last couple of years .
in my area all the contractors know each other, we do talk now and again believe it or not.
word would soon get round if you were doing drive by inspection reports
and no one wants tarred with that brush
i find a problem is young guys with no experience doing them and contractors using them as a way to get remedial work that isn't really required , but that's country wide not just scotland

 

[Plonker 3]

Not all AP's are larger contracting companies. I'm a sole trader. I got fed up with all the politics and bull**** that comes with working for others. The buck stops with me.

In all aspects of life we don't live in a perfect world but at least the Scottish government is doing something positive towards electrical safety and the industry no matter what the 'glass half full' people want to say. It's more than can be said for Westminster?

Maybe it is a move in the right direction, but surely you need one register like gas safe and not several. What is in place to stop people who do rouge EICRs and get removed from one of the scams and moving to the other pr even just plain lying when fillling out the form if your not a member of one of the scams?

 

[baldelectrician]

Maybe it is a move in the right direction, but surely you need one register like gas safe and not several. What is in place to stop people who do rouge EICRs and get removed from one of the scams and moving to the other pr even just plain lying when filling out the form if your not a member of one of the scams?

It is the responsibility of the landlord to check the credentials of the electrician when ordering them to carry out work.

The landlord can either use an electrician (and have therefore done due diligence by checking registration on the relevant NICIEC / SELECT website), or they can hope the electrician they use is OK

I feel that the landlords who don't care now will be similar, but will find things harder to dodge. Most landlords will have to bite the bullet and do what is required.

In any event standards will rise

 

[richy3333]

Maybe it is a move in the right direction, but surely you need one register like gas safe and not several. What is in place to stop people who do rouge EICRs and get removed from one of the scams and moving to the other pr even just plain lying when fillling out the form if your not a member of one of the scams?

As has already been said I think, we only only have the NICEIC and SELECT in Scotland, and we don't have DI's either. SELECT makes up about 1% of registered electricians out of the 2 bodies, so you can't really keep moving around like the half dozen bodies that exist in England. I'd guess there is a high number (possibly 50%+) of unregistered electricians in Scotland. I really don't care about this as I have more work than I can handle including fixing their bodges. I'd still maintain that Scotland's moving in the right direction on this and it's far more than England is doing (or will ever do).

 

[Plonker 3]

It is the responsibility of the landlord to check the credentials of the electrician when ordering them to carry out work.

The landlord can either use an electrician (and have therefore done due diligence by checking registration on the relevant NICIEC / SELECT website), or they can hope the electrician they use is OK

I feel that the landlords who don't care now will be similar, but will find things harder to dodge. Most landlords will have to bite the bullet and do what is required.

In any event standards will rise

So similar to part P then, look how well that works.

 

[Octopus]

It is the responsibility of the landlord to check the credentials of the electrician when ordering them to carry out work.

The landlord can either use an electrician (and have therefore done due diligence by checking registration on the relevant NICIEC / SELECT website), or they can hope the electrician they use is OK

I feel that the landlords who don't care now will be similar, but will find things harder to dodge. Most landlords will have to bite the bullet and do what is required.

In any event standards will rise

Unless this is policed and sanctions are taken against the cowboys little is likely to change

 

[baldelectrician]

So similar to part P then, look how well that works.

Quite the opposite- SELECT were instrumental in lobbying to prevent Part P in Scotland with the previous Lib/Lab coalition in Scotland pre 2007

See the check list

 

[trev]

Quite the opposite- SELECT were instrumental in lobbying to prevent Part P in Scotland with the previous Lib/Lab coalition in Scotland pre 2007

See the check list

That would be me buggered then. I've got no employees so don't have ELI.
I just failed that questionaire.