Discuss by gosh i think hes got it: The voice of us all!! in the UK Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

johnboy6083

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Please take some time to read through this. It is written by Widdler's father. I found it on a governement website.. It certainly speaks my mind.

Written evidence submitted by Phil WattsI am writing in response to your invitation for submissions from interested parties on the adequacy of the operation of the current Building Regulations so far as they apply to electrical and gas installation and repairs in dwellings.
I have been in electrical contracting, including domestic work, for the last 25 years, and still work “on-site”, mainly in a Consultative capacity, but involve myself in as much practical installation as time allows.
Over the last seven years I have “migrated” into teaching and training, and currently teach three days a week at East Berkshire College in Langley, Berkshire, delivering Level 3 NVQ Diploma in Electrotechnical Technology (City & Guilds 2357) and Level 3 Certificate in Electrotechnical Technology (City & Guilds 2330).
I also run my own private Training College, Ascot College, where I teach the electrical short courses:
City & Guilds 2382–12, Level 3 Certificate in the Requirements for Electrical Installations (BS7671:2011);
City & Guilds 2392–10, Level 2 Certificate in Fundamental Inspection and Testing of Electrical Installations;
City & Guilds 2391–10, Level 3 Certificate in Inspection, Testing and Certification of Electrical Installations;
City & Guilds 2391–20, Level 3 Certificate in Design, Erection and Verification of Electrical Installations;
City & Guilds 2393–10, Level 3 Certificate in the Building Regulations for Electrical Installations in Dwellings; and the
City & Guilds 4065–10, Level 2 Award or Certificate in Health and Safety in the Workplace.
I also assess NVQ’s and am a Technical Member of the Institution of Engineering and Technology. My reason for giving a “mini-CV” is not because I want to sell myself, but rather to indicate my unique range of experience. I know many electricians, and a lot of college lecturers, but there are not so many that teach in the public sector and the private sector, AND also still work on the tools, at the “sharp end” of any changes in legislation. It is my belief that:
The current system is inadequate in safeguarding health and safety in domestic dwellings.
The system is being administered incorrectly.
There is widespread confusion about what is required, Part P, qualifications etc.
Electricians, electrical contractors, electrical installers and electrical engineers should be licensed
The current system is inadequate in safeguarding health and safety in domestic dwellings

Many non-notifiable works are being carried out incorrectly.
This is due to lack of knowledge and understanding of electrical systems.
These works present a hazard to health and safety in many circumstances.
Removing the option of non-notifiable works will streamline the Regs and make them more effective.
Non-notifiable works includes changing socket outlet and switch plates, which are often replaced with a more decorative option, ie brass or chrome or some other metallic finish. These MUST be earthed by connection to the circuit protective conductor, but often in the case of switch plates especially, this is overlooked, as the existing cpc is often terminated into the back of the switch box.
Non-notifiable works includes replacing ceiling roses, where often there is confusion over the correct connections, due to the colouring of the conductor insulation on switch lines. I have often been called “retrospectively” to sort out a situation where a “DIYer” has connected “all the reds together and all the blacks together” (or browns and blues) and then cannot understand why the circuit trips out as soon as they try to re-energise. Also the rose may be changed for a luminaire, which, if Class I, requires earthing, and often this is overlooked.
Many decorative luminaires do not have adequate space for proper termination of all the circuit conductors on a standard lighting circuit, so these connections are often made into “connector-blocks” and then stuffed into the ceiling void above the luminaire, where they cannot be reached for maintenance, and I have even seen the broken remains of ceiling roses used for this purpose, hence “live” connections are left lying openly under the floors of bedrooms.
There are still many older installations in use that do not incorporate a circuit protective conductor in the lighting circuits, as was the standard when they were installed. It is imperative that no Class I equipment, switches, controls or luminaires are connected to these circuits, and this again is an area where non-qualified “DIYers” lack the knowledge and understanding to safely work on these systems. There are safe methods of installation (as suggested by the Best Practice Guides issued by the Electrical Safety Council), and these are best left to qualified electricians to deal with.
Adding lighting points and adding socket outlets (and fused spurs) to existing circuits involves extending the length of the circuit in addition to the installed design. This will then increase the value of earth fault loop impedance (Zs) for the altered circuit. The circuit will need to be tested to check that the Zs value is still within the parameters laid down in BS7671:2011, to ensure that the circuit protective device still operates within the disconnection time (0.4 seconds for TN-S and TN-C-S systems or 0.2 seconds for TT systems). If the disconnection time is not achieved, circuit conductors may overheat causing damage, or even a fire. Again, only qualified electricians will have sufficient understanding of these issues.
Any additional socket outlet installed will generally need to be protected by an RCD, (which may be integral with the socket for ease of installation), which will need to be tested in accordance with BS7671:2011. Appropriate testing equipment and knowledge is again required.
Any cabling installed to supply “additional sockets, switches and lighting points on an existing circuit” will need to be installed in accordance with BS7671:2008, as well as the Building Regulations. Design and installation knowledge and experience is required if these cables are to be installed correctly and safely, for example, cable calculations must be correctly performed for cables that run through thermal insulation, are grouped with other circuits, are exposed to ambient temperatures above 30 degrees or are protected by BS3036 semi-enclosed fuses. Cables not 50mm deep if concealed into a wall must be adequately mechanically protected, or protected by an RCD, as well as being in the proposed safe zones. Only qualified electricians will have sufficient knowledge and understanding to ensure that these “non-notifiable” works are carried out safely.
Anyone working on electrical systems should have full understanding of the dangers that electricity poses, and in line with the Health and Safety at Work Act 1974 and the Electricity at Work Regulations 1989, proper isolation of all live conductors should be carried out BEFORE any electrical work is started. Again, I have experienced many times where this has not been the case when people are undertaking electrical work in their own home.
To summarise, non-notifiable work is just as likely to cause the same hazards and risks as the notifiable work, as currently defined. By deeming the above types of work to be non-notifiable, we are leaving a loophole whereby non-qualified persons are altering electrical installations and having a detrimental effect on the safety of themselves and the persons currently residing there, visitors, future tenants or occupiers, and possibly neighbouring properties and emergency services in the event of fire.
Most non-notifiable work does not get tested or certified, despite the existence of the Minor Works Certificate, as the vast majority of those carrying out these works are unqualified and are not experienced in inspection and testing. By removing the category of “non-notifiable minor work”, the confusion over what is and is not notifiable will be removed. Only qualified electricians will be able to work on electrical systems, and all work will get inspected, tested and certified properly, and be effectively documented for future information.
Some people will not be happy at the prospect of not being able to do what they want in their own home, and DIY shops may be worried about losing sales, but I believe the benefits to home safety far outweigh these issues. Besides, people can still have whatever they want in their homes, but they will just need to have it done properly and safely by a qualified electrician. They can still buy the accessories from the DIY shops, (I do actually quite often select luminaires from these sources), but they will be installed by someone who knows what they are doing, and the work will be certified at the end, which surely, is what every responsible person wants.
The system is being administered incorrectly

Some local Building Control bodies are still unsure/incapable of administering the system.
The Competent Person/Enterprise self certification scheme is flawed.
Domestic Installer schemes are undermining the system.
In my experience, there is a great deal of uncertainty over the administration of the Building Regulations, specifically Part P—Electrical safety. I have dealt with a number of different Building Control bodies over time, and there has been a range of responses to notification. One that I applied to in fact did not understand exactly what needed to be done, and I effectively talked them through it!
I even had to tell them how much to charge me, and then they admitted that they did not have anyone suitably qualified to come out and inspect my work against the requirements. Another, as recently as December 2011, just asked for a completed Electrical Installation Certificate, and they were happy with that! It is apparent that many local Building Control bodies have not got sufficient resources, either in terms of suitably qualified staff, or time, or both, to administer this system correctly.
Another avenue, of course, is self certification, as a registered competent enterprise. I have, in the past, been an NICEIC approved electrician, as it was necessary for the type of work I was undertaking at the time. I am currently the Qualifying Supervisor for an NICEIC approved firm, in one of my consultative roles, but personally do not subscribe to any of the approving bodies, for a number of reasons.
The self-certification scheme works to a point, in that assessed enterprises “complete” the relevant documentation (certification) after carrying out the works, and send these to the approving body, and for a few pounds the documentation and notification process is completed. The local Building Control receive the documentation from the approving bodies, and issue the notification documents, and the person ordering the work receives the complete set of documents, and everyone is happy.
However in my experience, not everyone who receives “competent enterprise/person status” from the approving bodies is actually competent, let alone a qualified electrician! Domestic Installer courses run by some of the approving bodies last just five days, and one-and-a-half days of that are spent on assessment! Even though they are not supposed to be for inexperienced persons, I am aware that this is not always stringently controlled. Just this week I had a student relay to a class that I was taking, his account of an enquiry he made to the NICEIC about Domestic Installer status. He was advised that all he needed was the City & Guilds 2382 “17th Edition” qualification and that in their view he was “overqualified” because he was completing the City & Guilds 2330 Level 3, and wanted to continue his training with the 2392 and 2391 courses. This may well be an uninformed sales individual relaying incorrect information, but it is apparent that it is not an isolated incident.
Domestic Installer schemes seem to be creating another class of electrical operative, who have not got the required knowledge and understanding of design, installation practices, inspection and testing or certification to be classed as an electrician. These skills cannot be gained on a five day course, but require the commitment of completing a course such as the City & Guilds 2330 Level 3, or the City & Guilds 2357 Level 3 Diploma, plus some of the short courses. Or are we suggesting that domestic electrical installations and safety are not so important and can be completed to a lower standard? I do hope not. In which case, those operating under the banner of “Domestic Installer” or “Part P Qualified” should be “encouraged” to prove their competence properly, by the gaining of meaningful qualifications or assessment.
The awarding bodies have used the competent person scheme as a recruitment tool, and I am dismayed sometimes by the lack of knowledge that some of these “competent persons” display. There are no real checks on qualifications and knowledge, and for larger firms there is still only the requirement for one Qualifying Supervisor who knows how to install and inspect and test properly, and then the whole firm can become an approved enterprise. In this way a firm may have dozens of operatives and many vans, all displaying “approved contractor” or “domestic installer” banners, which the public are being educated to trust, yet they may actually get a non-qualified person completing their work!
 
There is widespread confusion about what is required, Part P, qualifications etc

The term “Part P qualified” is misleading and often deliberately misrepresentational.
The definition of “qualified electrician” is elusive at best.
The requirements for persons involved in electrical installation work should be clearly defined and regulated.
Full information of these issues should be made easily accessible to all.
How many times do we see “Part P qualified” or “Part P approved” written into marketing literature and on the side of vans, yet those of us that are properly informed know that the successful completion of a Part P course DOES NOT make someone a competent enterprise, or a qualified electrician! Unfortunately, the general public do not know this.
The number of “Part P” courses that have no real value is also a problem. For example, when Part P was introduced, I “filled in” for a sick colleague, and delivered several lessons of a Part P course at a local F.E. College. During a discussion with the class, it was apparent that they believed they were gaining a qualification which enabled them to “self certify” their own work. I had to inform them that only the approving bodies could award them “competent enterprise status”, and that the course, that they had paid £600 for, was informative only so they would also have to pay to be assessed by one of the approving bodies. Needless to say, they were not best pleased at the news, but thanked me for clearing things up for them.
This type of confusion is still rife within the industry, and clear, non-biased information is required to ensure that everyone knows exactly what is required. Remember also that there is a constant influx of new apprentices and other trainees into the industry, they all deserve to receive the correct information right from the beginning of their training.
So how do we define a qualified electrician, and at what stage do we look at someone and say, yes, you are qualified, I would trust you to undertake my electrical work?
The EAWR 1989 and BS7671:2011 both state that persons undertaking electrical work should be competent enough to avoid danger. Neither uses the term “qualified”. So what do we mean by the term? Taking two definitions from different sources, the term qualified is defined as:
(a)meeting the proper standards and requirements and training for an office or position or task; or
(b)quality or skill needed for a particular activity.
The Wiring Regulations (BS7671:2011) defines a competent person as someone who:
Possesses sufficient technical knowledge, relevant practical skills and experience for the nature of the electrical work undertaken and is able at all times to prevent danger and, where appropriate, injury to him/herself and others.
The National Occupational Standards detail the knowledge and skills requirements for persons involved in electrical installation work, so why do we allow people who have clearly not attained these standards to carry out electrical work?
As someone involved both in installation and in training, I have a pretty clear idea of the standard of tradesperson I would allow to work in my house. They must know how to plan and design the installation before they start, and have taken into account the safety of myself and my family. They must possess the knowledge and understanding of electrical systems, to enable them to deal with any issues arising from the alteration of my installation. They must know how to inspect and test the installed installation correctly and safely, and be able to provide me with the proper documentation. They must be aware of how the installation process may affect the structure and characteristics of my home, (sound travel, fire safety, ventilation etc). They must work diligently and prevent any damage to mine or my neighbours home or the environment, and provide me with a guarantee of their workmanship and materials. So what do I ask them for when they come to tender for the work?
Do I ask to see their qualifications, and if so, which ones, and do qualifications on their own prove competence? How much experience do they have, or are they fresh out of college? Membership to any of the “approving bodies” does not impress me either, as I have experienced many times situations where “members” do not have a full understanding of what they are attempting to install.
Having studied the National Occupational Standards, I am amazed that they seem to be “ignored” so blatantly by some of the “agencies” that should be helping to maintain the standards. These NOS’s are already written, and provide good criteria of what we should be looking for in an electrician. I would suggest that if more attention was paid to keeping to these standards, and incorporating them in any future developments in the training, assessment and qualification of electricians, the home would be a safer place.
So is there any existing system that sets a sensible benchmark for electrical qualifications, experience and knowledge, as well as checking health and safety awareness? Well, yes there is. Currently the J.I.B. operate a system that recognises qualifications, job experience and knowledge, and grades applicants accordingly. In conjunction with the E.C.A. they administer the E.C.S. card system (Electrotechnical Certification Scheme).
Briefly, the ECS card is the “electrical equivalent” of the CSCS card that is operated on most construction sites, where possession of a card is required for all personnel to gain access to work on site. The CSCS card is awarded following successful completion of a Health & safety test. The ECS card, which should be a requirement for all persons carrying out electrical installation, requires two things:
The successful completion of a health & safety exam (a different one to the CSCS card recognising the additional hazards of electricity).
Application and award of a JIB grade based on qualifications, experience and knowledge.
On successful achievement an applicant is provided with the ECS card which details their grading as assessed by JIB and their details, which can then be shown to potential customers. This provides the customer with proof of identification and gives them a guide as to the competency of the person tendering for the work. The cost of the JIB application, grading and exam is ÂŁ78 in total, which is in my opinion very good value for a system which checks and assesses your qualifications and experience, your health and safety knowledge and awareness and provides an identification card for you to show to customers.
I understand that the JIB set wage rates that are currently above some of the cheaper “outside” labour rates, and hence some firms are looking to move away from them, in order to utilise this cheaper labour and cut costs. In the current economic climate obviously firms are looking at all possibilities when it comes to cutting their costs to remain competitive. However, we must ensure that this does not also involve cutting the skills and knowledge levels of the workforce. Surely it is worth paying a little more for competent, skilled operatives, after all we would not accept imported cable just because it is cheaper, unlessit was up to standard. The JIB/ECA administered ECS card scheme is the one scheme that is currently capable of grading all operatives with at least some level of accuracy. We might not always be happy with the grade they set, BUT at least they have standards, and if someone wants to progress up through the levels they can, with training and experience. I suggest this system is adopted because I do not believe in re-inventing the wheel, (although that is another option) but I am also suggesting that we go one step further, and develop the scheme into a license to practice, as exists in many other countries.

Electricians, electrical contractors, electrical installers and electrical engineers should be licensed

The average person would not know how to assess the competence of anyone trading as an electrician, just like with a doctor or a dentist, they would rely on “the authorities” to identify and assess those plying their trade accordingly. I do not have a clue about medical issues, so when I visit the doctor I am totally reliant upon her judgement. She could prescribe weed killer as a tonic, and I would never know, well, not until I was having my stomach pumped anyway! The trouble is that, with electrical work, even incompetent persons can get lights and sockets to work, but are they safe?
The development of a “license” is a must for this industry. We can play around with “competent person” and “competent enterprise” schemes forever, but it will not prevent unqualified, unskilled or incompetent persons from having a go at “installing some electrics”.
A license of “electrician” grade should be a requirement for buying electrical installation equipment (cables, containment, distribution boards, circuit breakers, socket outlets, switches etc), just like having a fire-arms license, and let’s face it, electricity can be just as deadly as a gun in the wrong hands.
Only licensed operatives should be allowed on any site, most of the large contractors already operate this way so it will be a case of widening the current system and making it a requirement on ALL sites. The current “competent person/enterprise” scheme needs adjusting, so that ONLY licensed operatives can apply, and that all staff working for “an enterprise” should be registered and licensed. The criteria for membership to the approving bodies (NICEIC, ECA, NAPIT etc) should be standardised if they are to continue “approving”, so that there is a minimum standard across the board, and the grade awarded on the individual license should be taken into account. Either that or separate the membership process from the “approval” process, and standardise the “approval” process! The term “domestic installer” should be dropped, either you are an electrician, or you are not!
Clarity of all requirements for all grading should be made available to the industry and the public, so everyone knows where they stand, and can choose accordingly. Then, when I next knock on somebody’s door, I can show them my license displaying my grade, and they will know who I am and whether I can do their job.
January 2012
 
Agreed. Thank you or posting.

Look at this beauty - customer purchased two IP44 lamps from B&Q for me to fit.
2012-06-29 12.26.48.jpg
 
Yep good read it says everything we have been saying for long enough especially the JIB section as I have said they hold the key to registered electricians with regards to qualifications and as for the Schemies well he missed out Select in Scotland but thats ok the problem up here is that we have Select and NICEIC because you need competition fine but NICEIC have infected Select who used to keep a high standard (hence why we never to Part P) are now going to NICEIC standards which lets face it is pants.

Now that was the positive here come the negitive view the Schemies will fight tooth and nail to keep the Status Quo because it suits them and not the industry in a nutshell Part P will not go away again getting rid of it means they are admitting they made a mistake.

So how to fix it well JIB / SJIB should be the sole registration body for electricians plus they should develope a web site where an individual can register for self employed or a business this should be open to agencies and individuals who can access it to confirm the individual or the person running the business has the correct qualifications and has valid PI & PL insurance (this would stop the fly by nights and aid HMRC). As for the Schemies well under European Free trade they cannot force an individual or a business to register so in affect they are an extra layer that we do not need also they have a massive conflict of interests as the bothe assess the individual and then sell them courses/documentation ect .

The present situation. Part P is being ignored and is a joke the public are confused is to who is an electrician and who is not. The Schemies are out of control and are sales driven. Our Regulators and Schemies feel they need to constantly feel they need to change things for the sake of change BGB,Onsite Guide , 2391 is now 2392/1/2 , PAT/ISI&TEE PIR/EICR. We the electricians or the guys at the sharp end have little or no faith with the current situation and the ones who are registered with the schemies there is a feeling amongst some of them that they are being used as a cash cow and that in this current environment there costs to the schemies is an expense they can no longer afford.

The way forward yes we know the Schemies lurk on this site and no doubt they have a good laugh at us trying to sort out this mess when they know we are virtually powerless to do anything about it. But it will take deaths for anything to be done and I for one do not want that but an increase of deaths with electricty in the home will drive change and a bit like RCDs they were introduced because an MPs daughter died remember it was just accepted before then. Plus the balance is all wrong the people pay the Schemies to tell them what to do but unlike a shareholder they have no right to hold them to account.
 
It was an excellent letter (have read it previously somewhere,can't remember where though) it will have few detractors


However,it will have no effect on the decisions that have already been made and which will be implemented next year

The examples of what is wrong is not an issue,the issue is how to get those in authority to listen to whats wrong
They have taken evidence already,including this fine example, and they chose to listen to the fabricators of truth instead
 
Thanks for posting this.

Seems like ages ago now - we were surprised to find that apparently this was one of only 12 submissions against part P when the review came. Doesn't stand a chance against those entities profiting from its existence - ESC and NICEIC were particularly assertive for this staying the way it is.

It appears that no nationally recognised body/organisation is going to show interest in change for quite some time - if at all.

Maybe a new organisation/network of profession-all-ism and respect for our trade will mutate and grow from our despair :17:
 
I hope it changes mate. The problem is that we don't have a voice, and when it is offered, people think we're too far down the garden path!

Also it's all well and good disagreeing with a policy ect, but unless you can articulate your argument well, and put an alternative proposal on the table, then the powers that be (who coincidentally have no knowledge of our craft, and take their advice from parties with vested interests) will not take us seriously.


Your fathers submission is the best written example of a well reasoned argument I've read.
 

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