Need advice for domestic instal in Thailand

[Thai Amateur]

Hi,
First let me just say that I am not an electrician although in the past I've done the usual garage and shed wiring without having any residual issues. Second my apologies for such a long post.
However, I am now involved with something a bit bigger than a garden shed.
I am building my own bungalow and am just trying to finalise the layout of the electrics. Before anyone shouts - my big problem is that I live in Thailand and there is no code applicable to electrical wiring and from everything I've seen the professional level is not particularly high. There aren't even building inspectors to come round and check what you are building conforms with the plans let alone fits any criteria.
Given that my current house has earth cabling (in parts) but no actual ground I decided it would be a lot better if I actually tried to conform with UK regs as far as I could. So I've been having to browse the web and usually finished up somewhere in this forum.
My reason for this post is to try to get some level of confirmation to what I propose to do.
At this stage I am just listing summary points.
Electricity Supply.

1. 1. 1. Meter is mounted on a concrete post in the road. Distance to consumer unit(s) approx 25 metres.
         
      2. Intend to use 16mm cable but will have to make sure the CU can take it.
         
         
      3. No earth included with supply.

Proposed layout.

1. 1. 1. 2 x 2 metre earth rods set 1 metre apart. Earth cable to be 10mm.
         
      2. Lighting circuits to be 2.5 mm with 1.5mm earth. Earth is mainly for ceiling and wall fans as I have not yet seen a ceiling light with an earth in Thailand.
         
      3. Main circuits to be 4.5mm with earth (radial).
         
      4. Air Con units are rated as less than 4kw but I have allowed one circuit for each (4.5mm with earth).
         
      5. Cooker is rated at 6 kw. Is 4.5mm cable big enough or should I use 6mm?
         
      6. Shower rooms to have water heaters rated at 6kw (max. Again is 4.5 mm cable big enough?
         
         
      7. Kitchen is 3.5m x 3.5 m. I am installing 4 sets of 4 sockets (mainly because I don't know what appliances will be used in what part of the kitchen apart from fridge and washing machine). I am thinking about installing a 2.5 mm ring main but again should I use 4.5mm in a ring or radial.
         
      8. The air cons (5) and water heaters (2) will all have separate circuits with 4.5 mm + earth.
         
      9. 2 lighting circuits.
         
      10. 6 main circuits.
          
      11. Total = 15 circuits.

I've checked cable sizes for voltage drops using different calculators from the web which is one of the reasons I have so many main circuits. Anyway I think too many circuits will be better than possibly overloading somewhere.
I could possibly squeeze these circuits into 1 consumer unit by changing the cable layout but would prefer to use 2. Both to allow for any future changes and to retain power in parts of the house should there be an issue in one of the units.

Consumer Units. (Apologies but this is where I do get a bit confused).

1. 1. 1. Power supply from meter via a 100 (or 80?) amp fused power switch into a Henley box.
         
      2. Loads to be split (and balanced) between each unit to allow power in case of issues. e.g. 1 light circuit to each unit.
         
      3. MCBs – Type B – 32amp on cooker, water heaters and main circuits. 20 amp on air cons, 6 amp on lighting and fans.
         
      4. Consumer units- 2 x 10 (possibly 12) way dual 63 amp RCD.
         
      5. RCBOs (63A/30mA) fitted on each side (4) of the consumer units.

I realise all this is very amateurish when put before experienced tradesmen but I'm sort of caught between a rock and a hard place.

 

[HandySparks]

What is the supply voltage?

Single phase? i.e. just one live and one neutral?

 

[Thai Amateur]

What is the supply voltage?

Single phase? i.e. just one live and one neutral?

It's 220 volt - single phase.

 

[SirKit Breaker]

I will come and have a look for the cost of the airfare and some lodgings:tongue3:

 

[HandySparks]

It's 220 volt - single phase.

I can see that this could get tricky as you'll have local conditions and materials which are unfamiliar to most on here, although the fundamentals don't change.

Using 2.5mm² for lighting might be heavier than you need, and you might find it awkward to terminate into accessories, especially where you have more than one core in a terminal. However, I don't know the length of your cable runs, and you may need this size for volt drop (although I'd be surprised).

Significant factors in cable sizing are the type of cable, installation method (surface, buried in plaster, in conduit, etc), whether surrounded by thermal insulation, whether run bunched with other circuits.

What cable type are you proposing to use? You may have cables available which are not ordinarily used in the UK.

If you're of a technical background, you could get hold of a copy of the On Site Guide to BS 7671.
On-Site Guide: BS 7671:2008 Wiring Regulations, incorporating Amendment No 1:2011 Iet Wiring Regulations: Amazon.co.uk: Iet: Books

It's really for electricians as a quick reference, instead of consulting the full copy of the regs, but it might be worth a read through.

 

[Thai Amateur]

Many thanks HandySparks. I'll recheck the length of the lighting cable runs and the wattage of the ceiling fans. I'll also pop into the shop and get the details printed on the cables to see if they meet any international standard. All the cable runs will be buried in conduit in the wall - approx. 2-3 centimetres deep (including render) apart from the lighting which will just run in the loft space. It could be that I won't be able to get 1.5mm 3 core cable so would have to run a separate earth alongside. Had to search 3 large builders merchants before I even found 4.5mm 3 core.

 

[Thai Amateur]

I can see that this could get tricky as you'll have local conditions and materials which are unfamiliar to most on here, although the fundamentals don't change.

Using 2.5mm² for lighting might be heavier than you need, and you might find it awkward to terminate into accessories, especially where you have more than one core in a terminal. However, I don't know the length of your cable runs, and you may need this size for volt drop (although I'd be surprised).

Significant factors in cable sizing are the type of cable, installation method (surface, buried in plaster, in conduit, etc), whether surrounded by thermal insulation, whether run bunched with other circuits.

What cable type are you proposing to use? You may have cables available which are not ordinarily used in the UK.

If you're of a technical background, you could get hold of a copy of the On Site Guide to BS 7671.
On-Site Guide: BS 7671:2008 Wiring Regulations, incorporating Amendment No 1:2011 Iet Wiring Regulations: Amazon.co.uk: Iet: Books

It's really for electricians as a quick reference, instead of consulting the full copy of the regs, but it might be worth a read through.

Hi, I've checked the lighting cable runs and they are long because of all the switch drops which I've included (hope that's right). If it is then I'll split the 2 lighting circuits into 4 and use 1.5 mm cable to make life simpler. Regarding the cable the markings are : 300v 70C PVC/PVC VAF-GRD 2x4/2.5 mm sq TIS 11-2531 TABLE 11. I presume that the TABLE 11 refers to the same in the On-Site Guide.

 

[dan86]

I will come and have a look for the cost of the airfare and some lodgings:tongue3:

prob best if you get two sparks advice. I'll come too.

 

[HandySparks]

Hi, I've checked the lighting cable runs and they are long because of all the switch drops which I've included (hope that's right). If it is then I'll split the 2 lighting circuits into 4 and use 1.5 mm cable to make life simpler. Regarding the cable the markings are : 300v 70C PVC/PVC VAF-GRD 2x4/2.5 mm sq TIS 11-2531 TABLE 11. I presume that the TABLE 11 refers to the same in the On-Site Guide.

Yes, include the switch drops, but make sure that you're not doubling up on the length when doing the calculations. The tablulated values of volt drop are usually based on the length of cable from source to load and include the volt drop of the neutral return.

According to BS 7671, the limits for volt drop are 3% for lighting and 5% for all other circuits.

Table 11 will be the table in the appropriate standard. A quick Google finds this:
https://law.resource.org/pub/th/ibr/th.cs.11.e.2531.pdf

Looks like this might be similar to the flat twin & earth used in the UK (but I haven't done a detailed comparison).
http://www.prysmian.co.uk/export/sites/prysmian-enGB/attach/pdf/6241Y.pdf

 

[Thai Amateur]

Yes, include the switch drops, but make sure that you're not doubling up on the length when doing the calculations. The tablulated values of volt drop are usually based on the length of cable from source to load and include the volt drop of the neutral return.

According to BS 7671, the limits for volt drop are 3% for lighting and 5% for all other circuits.

Table 11 will be the table in the appropriate standard. A quick Google finds this:
https://law.resource.org/pub/th/ibr/th.cs.11.e.2531.pdf

Looks like this might be similar to the flat twin & earth used in the UK (but I haven't done a detailed comparison).
http://www.prysmian.co.uk/export/sites/prysmian-enGB/attach/pdf/6241Y.pdf

Many thanks HandySparks
Thailand has its own set of standards and this type of cable must be used in all the big developments so will be ok.
I'm going with 4 lighting circuits just to be on the safe side and I can use 1.5 mm cable. I'm also going to make the kitchen circuit 4mm radial instead of 2.5 ring. That keeps everything on the same standard.This gives me 17 circuits so will need some big consumer units - something like "MK Sentry 10 way dual RCD Board with 2 RCDs and 10 MCBs".

I don't know if I can get exactly that configuration yet so will have to do some shopping around. I've found this one online. It's not dual but has RCBO. C-UNIT+SAFE-T-CUT RCBO 10P 50A. SAF | DirectToShop.com
Sorry can't seem to get this as a link but this only has a 50A rating.
Getting a bit out of my depth now but one alternative is that I buy empty chassis and populate them with an 80A main switch with 2 RBOs and the necessary MCBs. Am I right in saying that I can cut a busbar to make a split for each RCBO using the neutral rail as a common to both parts?

Thanks for persevering with all this. I'm amazed at the amount of effort you're putting into it

.

 

[Engineer54]

Firstly i think your grossly over thinking this standard house installation. There IS a national code in Thailand, but maybe not always adhered too, to the levels they are in the West

Hi,
First let me just say that I am not an electrician although in the past I've done the usual garage and shed wiring without having any residual issues. Second my apologies for such a long post.
However, I am now involved with something a bit bigger than a garden shed.
I am building my own bungalow and am just trying to finalise the layout of the electrics. Before anyone shouts - my big problem is that I live in Thailand and there is no code applicable to electrical wiring and from everything I've seen the professional level is not particularly high. There aren't even building inspectors to come round and check what you are building conforms with the plans let alone fits any criteria.
Given that my current house has earth cabling (in parts) but no actual ground I decided it would be a lot better if I actually tried to conform with UK regs as far as I could. So I've been having to browse the web and usually finished up somewhere in this forum.

My reason for this post is to try to get some level of confirmation to what I propose to do.
At this stage I am just listing summary points.
Electricity Supply.

1. Meter is mounted on a concrete post in the road. Distance to consumer unit(s) approx 25 metres.
2. Intend to use 16mm cable but will have to make sure the CU can take it.
3. No earth included with supply.

You first need to find out from the supply company what size supply they are (or can) supply to you. It may be far less than you are anticipating??
Proposed layout.

1. 2 x 2 metre earth rods set 1 metre apart. Earth cable to be 10mm

Far better to couple those 2 X 2m earth rods together to give you greater depth and thereby better Ra values. You would also need to separate the 2 earth rods by at least the length of the earth, and better still 1.5 times the driven depth if you go with 2 separate earth rod positions...

2. Lighting circuits to be 2.5 mm with 1.5mm earth. Earth is mainly for ceiling and wall fans as I have not yet seen a ceiling light with an earth in Thailand.
3. Main circuits to be 4.5mm with earth (radial)
4. Air Con units are rated as less than 4kw but I have allowed one circuit for each (4.5mm with earth).
5. Cooker is rated at 6 kw. Is 4.5mm cable big enough or should I use 6mm?
6. Shower rooms to have water heaters rated at 6kw (max. Again is 4.5 mm cable big enough?
7. Kitchen is 3.5m x 3.5 m. I am installing 4 sets of 4 sockets (mainly because I don't know what appliances will be used in what part of the kitchen apart from fridge and washing machine). I am thinking about installing a 2.5 mm ring main but again should I use 4.5mm in a ring or radial.
8. The air cons (5) and water heaters (2) will all have separate circuits with 4.5 mm + earth.
9. 2 lighting circuits.
10. 6 main circuits.
11. Total = 15 circuits.

These cable sizes that you quote are quite common in South East Asia, i think they approximately correspond to the older AWG sizes that were once used in this part of the world.
Lighting circuits don't need to be 2.5mm and will be difficult to connect to most lighting fittings etc. So find max 1.5mm if you can.

What style of socket outlets are you intending to install?? You can only use 32A ring circuits with UK style fused plug tops!! Using 4.5mm radials may also be out of the question, if the wall outlets won't accept 2 X 4.5mm in it's terminals!!

2.5mm (or 4.5mm) is fine for your separately supplied 4 KW Air Conditioners.

4.5mm should be fine for the separately supplied 6KW showers. Same goes for the 6KW cooker, but maybe better to provided 6mm if you can foresee upgrading the cooker in the future.

As for the kitchen sockets, i doubt very much if you'll ever need 4 circuits, be they ring or radial. But i'll wait for you to come back with the type/style of sockets being used in your property.
Lighting circuits


I've checked cable sizes for voltage drops using different calculators from the web which is one of the reasons I have so many main circuits. Anyway I think too many circuits will be better than possibly overloading somewhere.
I could possibly squeeze these circuits into 1 consumer unit by changing the cable layout but would prefer to use 2. Both to allow for any future changes and to retain power in parts of the house should there be an issue in one of the units.

Consumer Units. (Apologies but this is where I do get a bit confused).
Power supply from meter via a 100 (or 80?) amp fused power switch into a Henley box.

Loads to be split (and balanced) between each unit to allow power in case of issues e.g. 1 light circuit to each unit.

MCBs – Type B – 32amp on cooker, water heaters and main circuits. 20 amp on air cons, 6 amp on lighting and fans.
Consumer units- 2 x 10 (possibly 12) way dual 63 amp RCD.
RCBOs (63A/30mA) fitted on each side (4) of the consumer units.

I realise all this is very amateurish when put before experienced tradesmen but I'm sort of caught between a rock and a hard place.

Let's not get too far ahead as far as the size and type of CU which will best suit you're needs. What you really need to find out in the first instance is the size of supply from the supplier, the type of socket outlets being used, bearing in mind the countries national standard, (if any) always best to Check!! From what i remember the official socket outlets are/were based around Europes CEE styles, but you can better answer that than i now!!

 

[Thai Amateur]

Firstly i think your grossly over thinking this standard house installation. There IS a national code in Thailand, but maybe not always adhered too, to the levels they are in the West



Let's not get too far ahead as far as the size and type of CU which will best suit you're needs. What you really need to find out in the first instance is the size of supply from the supplier, the type of socket outlets being used, bearing in mind the countries national standard, (if any) always best to Check!! From what i remember the official socket outlets are/were based around Europes CEE styles, but you can better answer that than i now!!

Probably am overthinking the installation. I used to be a designer for computer business systems so had to try to think of every eventuality when I build a program even situations the users didn't envisage. Think I'm also doing that for this design. I just want it to be future proof as making changes will necessitate cutting holes in walls or trying to move round the loft space which doesn't have a floor.
The electricity company will say they are supplying 220 volts. I already have a house next to the bungalow I'm building and I had a big dispute with them over the position of the meter for that one. The house is at the end of a 70 metre unmade road. They refused to mount it on the post next to the house and insisted that I needed another one just for their meter. Couldn't understand what the guy was saying but I presume it was to do with the voltage drop if they carried the supply too far from the main line. Cost me 200 GBP.
Regarding the earth rods I think it will be impossible to drive them down 4 metres. The ground gets like concrete about 1 metre down so even 2 metres will be difficult. I can buy 3 metre rods (haven't seen anything longer) so could try to persevere to get them as deep as possible.
I can use 1.5 mm cable for the lighting by having 4 circuits instead of just 2 as originally planned. That should also cope with ceiling and wall fans.
Sockets are type A or B as used in the USA. I'll be using the 3 pin type throughout. The new style socket also has a wider blade for the neutral so will have to make sure I get this style.
Sockets are modular in that they "click" into position on a plate screwed to the wall box. There are two wire positions for each terminal so fitting 4 mm cable is not a problem. I've already checked with a spare. One problem is quality. Out here cheap corresponds to good - not one of my personal beliefs though.
In the kitchen I only have one circuit supplying 4 groups of 4 sockets each. 1 group in each corner above work surface level.
I think I'll use 6 mm cable for the cooker just in case. One problem I have is terminating it as I have not seen a proper switched cooker socket anywhere. When they installed the cooker in my house they simply twisted the wires together and bound them in tape.
That's another problem particularly with the lighting circuits. How can I connect wires for switches and continuing runs? I know that left to the locals it will be twisted with insulating tape but I think that's a definite No-No. Can I use plastic joining strips (screw type)?
I'm not overkeen as I've found the screws tend to loosen over time but I could "glue" them in place after fitting.

LOL - every time I log on I learn something new

 

[HandySparks]

That's another problem particularly with the lighting circuits. How can I connect wires for switches and continuing runs? I know that left to the locals it will be twisted with insulating tape but I think that's a definite No-No. Can I use plastic joining strips (screw type)?

That's an easy one to answer. Wago pushwire or lever connectors. Either in a Wagobox or in a normal surface or flush box. The lever ones are bulkier, but easier to make changes and are suitable for stranded flexible cable as well as solid core. I've not used screw terminal choc bloc since I started using these. Try an internet search for Wago box.

Other makes of similar connectors are available, including from one of the forum sponsors, Line. Do a search on the forum for more info on these.

 

[Engineer54]

Probably am overthinking the installation. I used to be a designer for computer business systems so had to try to think of every eventuality when I build a program even situations the users didn't envisage. Think I'm also doing that for this design. I just want it to be future proof as making changes will necessitate cutting holes in walls or trying to move round the loft space which doesn't have a floor.
The electricity company will say they are supplying 220 volts. I already have a house next to the bungalow I'm building and I had a big dispute with them over the position of the meter for that one. The house is at the end of a 70 metre unmade road. They refused to mount it on the post next to the house and insisted that I needed another one just for their meter. Couldn't understand what the guy was saying but I presume it was to do with the voltage drop if they carried the supply too far from the main line. Cost me 200 GBP.

Can't really comment on the metering position, or the supply companies reasons. lol!!
What you ''NEED'' to know, is the Maximum current or KW, the supply company are or will be supplying, not the voltage.

Regarding the earth rods I think it will be impossible to drive them down 4 metres. The ground gets like concrete about 1 metre down so even 2 metres will be difficult. I can buy 3 metre rods (haven't seen anything longer) so could try to persevere to get them as deep as possible.

You really do need to go as deep as possible!! As you have rightly stated previously, that your earthing installation is a very important aspect to any installation in Thailand!
Try using/hireing a good SDS drill with the rotation turned off, and buy driving bit for the size of your rod(s) your using. Check out the ''furse'' website for the materials you'll need for coupling and or driving earth rods in the ground ...eg coupling and drive heads etc. It'll give you photo/pictures of these items...

I can use 1.5 mm cable for the lighting by having 4 circuits instead of just 2 as originally planned. That should also cope with ceiling and wall fans.

You shouldn't need more than 2 lighting circuits, (unless this is a very big house). Most ceiling/wall fans are around just 60 to 80W so can easily be supplied via the lighting circuits or if you wish a separate circuit for these fans

Sockets are type A or B as used in the USA. I'll be using the 3 pin type throughout. The new style socket also has a wider blade for the neutral so will have to make sure I get this style.

There are three styles of American domestic sockets, one for 120V and the other two for 240V. The one i remember as 240 Volt was two flat horizontal blade and a circular earth pin (20A). the other i think is one vertical flat blade and one horezontal again with rounded earth pin (15A). Make sure you get the 240 type, as the standard in the states is for 120V, and insulation will only be rated for that voltage...

Sockets are modular in that they "click" into position on a plate screwed to the wall box. There are two wire positions for each terminal so fitting 4 mm cable is not a problem. I've already checked with a spare. One problem is quality. Out here cheap corresponds to good - not one of my personal beliefs though.

If captive screw type be careful (conductor captive under wide head terminal screw) American back boxes come very close to these exposed cative screws. Your right, never seen a good quality American wall socket or light switch the latter being as big, and taking up exactly the same space as the double socket outlet!!!!


In the kitchen I only have one circuit supplying 4 groups of 4 sockets each. 1 group in each corner above work surface level.

I think you mean a back box that holds two double sockets. Personally, would think more towards the layout of your kitchen, as to where larger floor standing appliances and the like will be positioned etc and design your electrical outlets to suite rather than just siteing at each corner.

i would I think I'll use 6 mm cable for the cooker just in case. One problem I have is terminating it as I have not seen a proper switched cooker socket anywhere. When they installed the cooker in my house they simply twisted the wires together and bound them in tape.

You can use a standard back box with a 30A socket outlet to connect your cooker. Or look around the electrical wholesalers or outlets, you should be able to find a suitably rated Double pole switches for both the cooker, shower and the AC units too....


That's another problem particularly with the lighting circuits. How can I connect wires for switches and continuing runs? I know that left to the locals it will be twisted with insulating tape but I think that's a definite No-No. Can I use plastic joining strips (screw type)?
I'm not overkeen as I've found the screws tend to loosen over time but I could "glue" them in place after fitting.

Well you could order Wago connectors from Line Products, the forum sponsors here. These are recognised as being MF (Maintenance Free) Send them an email or PM, i'm sure they would be willing to help you with your requirements, and at a reasonable price too, as you are entitled to a forum discount!! lol!!

LOL - every time I log on I learn something new

I do strongly recommend that you employ a registered electrician though, they are not all as bad as you say. I have had some pretty decent Thai electricians on some of our overseas contracts. Just make sure he understands that your requirements are going to be much higher than a usual house wire!! lol!!

BTW, what is the contruction method of this bungalow, eg, wood frame, concrete frame brick/block fill-in, or other??

 

[Thai Amateur]

Yet again – many thanks for all the input. Feel as though I'm beginning to get somewher now.


Can't really comment on the metering position, or the supply companies reasons. lol!!
What you ''NEED'' to know, is the Maximum current or KW, the supply company are or will be supplying, not the voltage.


OK – I'll pop into the supplier. Could make for an interesting conversation with my wife in the middle as the interpreter.


You really do need to go as deep as possible!! As you have rightly stated previously, that your earthing installation is a very important aspect to any installation in Thailand!
Try using/hireing a good SDS drill with the rotation turned off, and buy driving bit for the size of your rod(s) your using. Check out the ''furse'' website for the materials you'll need for coupling and or driving earth rods in the ground ...eg coupling and drive heads etc. It'll give you photo/pictures of these items...


LOL - Just burnt out my SDS hammer drill. Was going to buy a new one anyway. I can put the rods next to the building wall as I haven't laid the outside path yet. I'll then bury the cable under the path and also make sure I leave an access to the rods themselves. I'll check at the builders' merchants as to maximum length of rod I can find. I think I also saw joints there but can't be sure at the moment.


You shouldn't need more than 2 lighting circuits, (unless this is a very big house). Most ceiling/wall fans are around just 60 to 80W so can easily be supplied via the lighting circuits or if you wish a separate circuit for these fans.


Just that the length of the circuits themselves pushed the cable size up to 2.5mm. It is just as easy to put in 4 circuits as 2 and I'll have space on the CU's.


There are three styles of American domestic sockets, one for 120V and the other two for 240V. The one i remember as 240 Volt was two flat horizontal blade and a circular earth pin (20A). the other i think is one vertical flat blade and one horezontal again with rounded earth pin (15A). Make sure you get the 240 type, as the standard in the states is for 120V, and insulation will only be rated for that voltage...


Just about everything sold out here is 220v rated. Sockets themselves take round or flat pin terminals for live and neutral with a round pin for the earth.


If captive screw type be careful (conductor captive under wide head terminal screw) American back boxes come very close to these exposed cative screws. Your right, never seen a good quality American wall socket or light switch the latter being as big, and taking up exactly the same space as the double socket outlet!!!!


Design of sockets and switches here seems pretty neat and tidy. Switches are the same size as the sockets so everything could fit into the same plate. It's just that the quality varies significantly. One issue to look for is that they come in 2 different sizes so will have to make sure I get the right size to fit the mounting plates.


I think you mean a back box that holds two double sockets. Personally, would think more towards the layout of your kitchen, as to where larger floor standing appliances and the like will be positioned etc and design your electrical outlets to suite rather than just siteing at each corner.


Yes – that's right. 2 sets are on the back wall – 1 primarily for the washing machine and the other for the fridge. There will a work surface between the 2 so I've allowed for occupants to use whatever appliances they like without having cables lying about everywhere.
1 other set covers the main working surface and the final one covers the work surface between the kitchen and dining area (open plan).


You can use a standard back box with a 30A socket outlet to connect your cooker. Or look around the electrical wholesalers or outlets, you should be able to find a suitably rated Double pole switches for both the cooker, shower and the AC units too....


Will do. I hadn't planned on switching the AC units though. Just running them directly from the CU. They're remote controlled so would be left switched on all the time anyway. Is this important?


Well you could order Wago connectors from Line Products, the forum sponsors here. These are recognised as being MF (Maintenance Free) Send them an email or PM, i'm sure they would be willing to help you with your requirements, and at a reasonable price too, as you are entitled to a forum discount!! lol!!


Found an online site here that does Wago stuff so that's on problem sorted at least.


I do strongly recommend that you employ a registered electrician though, they are not all as bad as you say. I have had some pretty decent Thai electricians on some of our overseas contracts. Just make sure he understands that your requirements are going to be much higher than a usual house wire!! lol!!


Would like to but there are a couple of problems. First is that I live in a place called Udon Thani. It's a big town up in the North East - long way from the sea. Plenty of construction going on but I think that any really good electrician would be off to Bangkok or overseas to get the money.

The other problem is that my father-in-law is an “electrician”. He worked for 14 years in Saudi and is the guy who installed the electrics in my own house. No earth, etc.
He obviously wants to get involved as I will have to pay him. We don't get on and if I employ someone else it will cause (another - LOL) family feud.
That's one of the main reasons that I'm trying to dot the i's and cross the t's before I actually start wiring.


BTW, what is the contruction method of this bungalow, eg, wood frame, concrete frame brick/block fill-in, or other??


Construction is concrete frame with brick/block infill. Actually put up cavity walls. Brickies had never seen them before and I( had to keep checking that they put in the wall ties.
Steel framed roof – Termites can't eat steel.

 

[Engineer54]

Yet again – many thanks for all the input. Feel as though I'm beginning to get somewher now.

LOL - Just burnt out my SDS hammer drill. Was going to buy a new one anyway. I can put the rods next to the building wall as I haven't laid the outside path yet. I'll then bury the cable under the path and also make sure I leave an access to the rods themselves. I'll check at the builders' merchants as to maximum length of rod I can find. I think I also saw joints there but can't be sure at the moment.

No, that is the worst place to site an earth electrode keep at least a metre or more, away from any buildings walls. You can run the buried earth cable in PVC conduit back into the house

You shouldn't need more than 2 lighting circuits, (unless this is a very big house). Most ceiling/wall fans are around just 60 to 80W so can easily be supplied via the lighting circuits or if you wish a separate circuit for these fans.


Just that the length of the circuits themselves pushed the cable size up to 2.5mm. It is just as easy to put in 4 circuits as 2 and I'll have space on the CU's.


As i said, i doubt if the length of your circuits within a standard sized bungalow will undully affect cable sizing. 1.5 mm should be more than ample for your requirements. Up to you, but totally unnecessary to have 4 lighting circuits here in my opinion

Just about everything sold out here is 220v rated. Sockets themselves take round or flat pin terminals for live and neutral with a round pin for the earth.

OK you know more than me as to whats available for domestic's in Thailand these day's!!

Design of sockets and switches here seems pretty neat and tidy. Switches are the same size as the sockets so everything could fit into the same plate. It's just that the quality varies significantly. One issue to look for is that they come in 2 different sizes so will have to make sure I get the right size to fit the mounting plates.

Can you post photo's or catologue pictures of the wall accessoiries you intend using, they sound like American in many respects but want to be sure. I don't and never have liked the standard American wall accessories, or the method of wiring and connection.

Yes – that's right. 2 sets are on the back wall – 1 primarily for the washing machine and the other for the fridge. There will a work surface between the 2 so I've allowed for occupants to use whatever appliances they like without having cables lying about everywhere.
1 other set covers the main working surface and the final one covers the work surface between the kitchen and dining area (open plan).

Again better to have controlling switches above the worktop to control socket outlets below worktop level, for appliances such as built in/floor standing washing machines, tumble dryers, dishwashers etc, though i wouldn't put a control switch in for the fridge/freezer just in case some fool switches it off....lol!!

Will do. I hadn't planned on switching the AC units though. Just running them directly from the CU. They're remote controlled so would be left switched on all the time anyway. Is this important?

What type of AC's are you going to be using, split system or wall bangers (single through the wall AC unit)?? The usual connection to such domestic AC's is either a Switched fuse connection unit (no such thing in American wiring systems) or a switched socket outlet, (that'll be one of those double socket outlets and a switch in the large American back boxes, to my knowlege they don't do switched socket outlets). On split unit AC's, the external condensing unit, will also need a means of DP isolation. Yes it is important!!


Found an online site here that does Wago stuff so that's on problem sorted at least.

Yep the Wago connectors are pretty good!!!

Would like to but there are a couple of problems. First is that I live in a place called Udon Thani. It's a big town up in the North East - long way from the sea. Plenty of construction going on but I think that any really good electrician would be off to Bangkok or overseas to get the money.
The other problem is that my father-in-law is an “electrician”. He worked for 14 years in Saudi and is the guy who installed the electrics in my own house. No earth, etc.
He obviously wants to get involved as I will have to pay him. We don't get on and if I employ someone else it will cause (another - LOL) family feud.
That's one of the main reasons that I'm trying to dot the i's and cross the t's before I actually start wiring.

Maybe that's a problem for you, but at the end of the day house electric's is not as easy as many would like to think!! How are you intending to test all this wiring work, as that's going to be just as important as the actual wiring itself, especially as we will also be considering RCD devices at the CU end of the installation.
Safety first is always the best way to go

Construction is concrete frame with brick/block infill. Actually put up cavity walls. Brickies had never seen them before and I( had to keep checking that they put in the wall ties.
Steel framed roof – Termites can't eat steel.

I thought it would be concrete framed with block/brick infill!! Hope you can get DPC for the infill walls over there in Thailand, cause when it rains it rains in bucket loads in that part of the world!! Our project site in Zhuhai is like a bloddy quagmire at the moment!! lol!!

 

[Thai Amateur]

What you ''NEED'' to know, is the Maximum current or KW, the supply company are or will be supplying, not the voltage.
Electric Company says 30 Amp supply. My house (next to new one) must have the same and it has 2 x CUs each with 63A main. 3OA equates to 7kw so how can that supply the power for even the 3 ACs I currently have in the house let alone the water heaters?
LOL - Just burnt out my SDS hammer drill. Was going to buy a new one anyway. I can put the rods next to the building wall as I haven't laid the outside path yet. I'll then bury the cable under the path and also make sure I leave an access to the rods themselves. I'll check at the builders' merchants as to maximum length of rod I can find. I think I also saw joints there but can't be sure at the moment.

No, that is the worst place to site an earth electrode keep at least a metre or more, away from any buildings walls. You can run the buried earth cable in PVC conduit back into the house
That's no problem I can install in the same trench as the water supply/main drain – PVC pipes. I'm going to test drive a 2 metre rod in the next couple of days to see if there is a problem getting down that far. Builders Merchants have 4 metre rods so the only problem with those will be getting high enough to hit the tops.You shouldn't need more than 2 lighting circuits, (unless this is a very big house). Most ceiling/wall fans are around just 60 to 80W so can easily be supplied via the lighting circuits or if you wish a separate circuit for these fans.


Just that the length of the circuits themselves pushed the cable size up to 2.5mm. It is just as easy to put in 4 circuits as 2 and I'll have space on the CU's.


As i said, i doubt if the length of your circuits within a standard sized bungalow will undully affect cable sizing. 1.5 mm should be more than ample for your requirements. Up to you, but totally unnecessary to have 4 lighting circuits here in my opinion

Just about everything sold out here is 220v rated. Sockets themselves take round or flat pin terminals for live and neutral with a round pin for the earth.

OK you know more than me as to whats available for domestic's in Thailand these day's!! Design of sockets and switches here seems pretty neat and tidy. Switches are the same size as the sockets so everything could fit into the same plate. It's just that the quality varies significantly. One issue to look for is that they come in 2 different sizes so will have to make sure I get the right size to fit the mounting plates.

Can you post photo's or catologue pictures of the wall accessoiries you intend using, they sound like American in many respects but want to be sure. I don't and never have liked the standard American wall accessories, or the method of wiring and connection.

Type of thing we have out here. Of course I'll have to get matching items. Face plates come with a back plate for mounting the switches/sockets. They just click in place.


Yes – that's right. 2 sets are on the back wall – 1 primarily for the washing machine and the other for the fridge. There will a work surface between the 2 so I've allowed for occupants to use whatever appliances they like without having cables lying about everywhere.
1 other set covers the main working surface and the final one covers the work surface between the kitchen and dining area (open plan).

Again better to have controlling switches above the worktop to control socket outlets below worktop level, for appliances such as built in/floor standing washing machines, tumble dryers, dishwashers etc, though i wouldn't put a control switch in for the fridge/freezer just in case some fool switches it off....lol!!

Will do. I hadn't planned on switching the AC units though. Just running them directly from the CU. They're remote controlled so would be left switched on all the time anyway. Is this important?

What type of AC's are you going to be using, split system or wall bangers (single through the wall AC unit)?? The usual connection to such domestic AC's is either a Switched fuse connection unit (no such thing in American wiring systems) or a switched socket outlet, (that'll be one of those double socket outlets and a switch in the large American back boxes, to my knowlege they don't do switched socket outlets). On split unit AC's, the external condensing unit, will also need a means of DP isolation. Yes it is important!!
ACs are split type with condensing unit outside. Definitely have to sort this out then because every AC I've seen out here just gets }hot wired}.

Found an online site here that does Wago stuff so that's on problem sorted at least.

Yep the Wago connectors are pretty good!!!

Would like to but there are a couple of problems. First is that I live in a place called Udon Thani. It's a big town up in the North East - long way from the sea. Plenty of construction going on but I think that any really good electrician would be off to Bangkok or overseas to get the money.
The other problem is that my father-in-law is an “electrician”. He worked for 14 years in Saudi and is the guy who installed the electrics in my own house. No earth, etc.
He obviously wants to get involved as I will have to pay him. We don't get on and if I employ someone else it will cause (another - LOL) family feud.
That's one of the main reasons that I'm trying to dot the i's and cross the t's before I actually start wiring.

Maybe that's a problem for you, but at the end of the day house electric's is not as easy as many would like to think!! How are you intending to test all this wiring work, as that's going to be just as important as the actual wiring itself, especially as we will also be considering RCD devices at the CU end of the installation.
Safety first is always the best way to go
I'll ask around the local ex-pat sites although I still think I'll need to know a lot more as the peop0le I'll be asking probably won't be that technical anyway.
I've just bought a Class III 600 volt multimeter. It's Kyoritsu model 2017. I've had a quick look round the web on how to test but some of the instructions look a bit basic. Will keep looking but realise that I'll have to take my time to test the whole thing properly.

Construction is concrete frame with brick/block infill. Actually put up cavity walls. Brickies had never seen them before and I( had to keep checking that they put in the wall ties.
Steel framed roof – Termites can't eat steel.
I thought it would be concrete framed with block/brick infill!! Hope you can get DPC for the infill walls over there in Thailand, cause when it rains it rains in bucket loads in that part of the world!! Our project site in Zhuhai is like a bloddy quagmire at the moment!! lol!!
LOL - No DPC out here. Never seen any. Get over the problem by making the wall footings 50cm deep and infilling with really well compacted earth. Locals then build off the footings and put the slab in after but I've put the slab across the whole area – edge to edge – and then built the walls off that. Means that the wall base is 60 cm above ground. No problems with damp at all in my own house. We don't have monsoons in Northern Thailand just 5 months when it rains quite heavily. No flooding though and the surface water disappears quite quickly.
Also means that I won't have a problem with the slab settling even if the infill does drop a bit.

 

[Engineer54]

Electric Company says 30 Amp supply. My house (next to new one) must have the same and it has 2 x CUs each with 63A main. 3OA equates to 7kw so how can that supply the power for even the 3 ACs I currently have in the house let alone the water heaters?

The main switches do not usually have any form of protection they are just DP switches for isolation purposes, that are able to carry 63A. Think you'll find that if you require more than 7KW, then you pay a higher installation charge for a 3 phase supply and higher monthly (or whatever) standing charges. You'll be surprised what a 30A supply can accommodate in a domestic setting, ''Diversity'' is a wonderful thing. For a start AC's are not working at full capacity all the time, they like many other appliances work will be switching on and off via thermostat's and the like. Have you had any problems with your house, where the supply companies main cut-out fuse has blown?? lol!!

That's no problem I can install in the same trench as the water supply/main drain – PVC pipes. I'm going to test drive a 2 metre rod in the next couple of days to see if there is a problem getting down that far. Builders Merchants have 4 metre rods so the only problem with those will be getting high enough to hit the tops.

For ease of installation maybe better to purchase 2 X 2m rods and drive them in one at a time. Just needs a coupler on the first rod that you can screw the second rod onto. Best install in a position where you will be watering during the hot summer months, to keep the soil moist. Dried up soil is a killer for any earth electrode as the soil needs to be in constant moist contact with the earth rod. And by the sound of it you have very free draining soil where you are.

Type of thing we have out here. Of course I'll have to get matching items. Face plates come with a back plate for mounting the switches/sockets. They just click in place.

Well the flat 3 pin American style that is shown in this dual plug top outlet is the Yank 125 volt configuration which is not suitable for 220 volt operation. I can't think of any other international plug top design that matches the 3 pin round 22O V pins shown above in your picture, only an unearthed two pin design. So maybe a little further investigation is needed here...

ACs are split type with condensing unit outside. Definitely have to sort this out then because every AC I've seen out here just gets }hot wired}.

Well you did say you want the electrical installation installed correctly!! lol!! Make sure the condensing units external switches are suitably IP rated (IP 56 min)

I've just bought a Class III 600 volt multimeter. It's Kyoritsu model 2017. I've had a quick look round the web on how to test but some of the instructions look a bit basic. Will keep looking but realise that I'll have to take my time to test the whole thing properly.

Unfortunately, a simple multimeter will be not suitable for the majority of the electrical test requirements to your property. The test instruments you will require is a 500V Insulation tester, a Earth Loop Impedance tester, and a Residual Current Device tester. Maybe you will be able to locally hire them, but you'll still need someone who know's how to use them....

LOL - No DPC out here. Never seen any. Get over the problem by making the wall footings 50cm deep and infilling with really well compacted earth. Locals then build off the footings and put the slab in after but I've put the slab across the whole area – edge to edge – and then built the walls off that. Means that the wall base is 60 cm above ground. No problems with damp at all in my own house. We don't have monsoons in Northern Thailand just 5 months when it rains quite heavily. No flooding though and the surface water disappears quite quickly.
Also means that I won't have a problem with the slab settling even if the infill does drop a bit.

Ok i think i've got the idea, you're building your bungalow on a ''Raft'' type foundation that has it's top face 60cm above FGL. I wasn't thinking along the lines of monsoons, we don't have them here either. Just that in these tropical and semi tropical countries when it rains it rains, and normally much heavier than what we are used too in Europe...

Can you post a photo of the type of Consumer unit, you are intending to use in your bungalow to supply your electrical circuits??

 

[Thai Amateur]

et again many thanks for your interest. I surely would have made quite a mess without it.


Electric Company says 30 Amp supply. My house (next to new one) must have the same and it has 2 x CUs each with 63A main. 3OA equates to 7kw so how can that supply the power for even the 3 ACs I currently have in the house let alone the water heaters?
The main switches do not usually have any form of protection they are just DP switches for isolation purposes, that are able to carry 63A. Think you'll find that if you require more than 7KW, then you pay a higher installation charge for a 3 phase supply and higher monthly (or whatever) standing charges. You'll be surprised what a 30A supply can accommodate in a domestic setting, ''Diversity'' is a wonderful thing. For a start AC's are not working at full capacity all the time, they like many other appliances work will be switching on and off via thermostat's and the like. Have you had any problems with your house, where the supply companies main cut-out fuse has blown?? lol!!
No problems with the main circuits whatever. We do use CFL lamps here but they don't last 3 years! I think I might have some sort of problem with the downstairs lighting circuit but changing it will be a nightmare. Suspended ceiling and there is a concrete slab floor above.
Electricity company said 3 phase would be 15 Amps. Guy up the road installed 3 phase and it cost him a fortune - [FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]₤[/FONT][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]2,500 against [/FONT][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]₤[/FONT][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]100 for single phase.[/FONT]
That's no problem I can install in the same trench as the water supply/main drain – PVC pipes. I'm going to test drive a 2 metre rod in the next couple of days to see if there is a problem getting down that far. Builders Merchants have 4 metre rods so the only problem with those will be getting high enough to hit the tops.
For ease of installation maybe better to purchase 2 X 2m rods and drive them in one at a time. Just needs a coupler on the first rod that you can screw the second rod onto. Best install in a position where you will be watering during the hot summer months, to keep the soil moist. Dried up soil is a killer for any earth electrode as the soil needs to be in constant moist contact with the earth rod. And by the sound of it you have very free draining soil where you are.
Have to find a coupler then or make one up. Position will be quite good as it is right under the roof overhang so any rain will drop into that area. Plus it is at the edge of the “lawn” so should get watered fairly regularly.
Type of thing we have out here. Of course I'll have to get matching items. Face plates come with a back plate for mounting the switches/sockets. They just click in place.
Well the flat 3 pin American style that is shown in this dual plug top outlet is the Yank 125 volt configuration which is not suitable for 220 volt operation. I can't think of any other international plug top design that matches the 3 pin round 22O V pins shown above in your picture, only an unearthed two pin design. So maybe a little further investigation is needed here..
Plugs and switched are both rated 16A / 250V and they are the standard out here. Haven't had any problems in my house with the fixed installations. Extension leads are another problem though.
ACs are split type with condensing unit outside. Definitely have to sort this out then because every AC I've seen out here just gets }hot wired}.
Well you did say you want the electrical installation installed correctly!! lol!! Make sure the condensing units external switches are suitably IP rated (IP 56 min)
Will do.
I've just bought a Class III 600 volt multimeter. It's Kyoritsu model 2017. I've had a quick look round the web on how to test but some of the instructions look a bit basic. Will keep looking but realise that I'll have to take my time to test the whole thing properly.


Unfortunately, a simple multimeter will be not suitable for the majority of the electrical test requirements to your property. The test instruments you will require is a 500V Insulation tester, a Earth Loop Impedance tester, and a Residual Current Device tester. Maybe you will be able to locally hire them, but you'll still need someone who know's how to use them....
No chance of hiring these. Rental places are pretty good for the normal building stuff but nothing technical. I can buy these (knocks a bit more of a hole in my budget - lol) but I like having tools about on the basis that if you've used them once then you're likely to need them again. I have to run some sort of wiring up the garden in due course so would need stuff for that.
As you say I'll need to find someone to use them properly. It's possible that my wife's father has some idea but I don't want to rely on him too much.
I've asked round the local ex-pat sites about a good electrician so might get a nibble or two from there.
LOL - No DPC out here. Never seen any. Get over the problem by making the wall footings 50cm deep and infilling with really well compacted earth. Locals then build off the footings and put the slab in after but I've put the slab across the whole area – edge to edge – and then built the walls off that. Means that the wall base is 60 cm above ground. No problems with damp at all in my own house. We don't have monsoons in Northern Thailand just 5 months when it rains quite heavily. No flooding though and the surface water disappears quite quickly.
Also means that I won't have a problem with the slab settling even if the infill does drop a bit.
Ok i think i've got the idea, you're building your bungalow on a ''Raft'' type foundation that has it's top face 60cm above FGL. I wasn't thinking along the lines of monsoons, we don't have them here either. Just that in these tropical and semi tropical countries when it rains it rains, and normally much heavier than what we are used too in Europe...
LOL – we have some pretty good thunderstorms in the windy season. Just coming the end of the rainy season and we've had a lot more rain than last year. Our fish pond is almost up to the overflow level. It's about 18 metres square and 3 metres deep and was about 8ocm at the beginning of the season.

Can you post a photo of the type of Consumer unit, you are intending to use in your bungalow to supply your electrical circuits??

Something like this. It's an MK 63A and compatible with 17th Edition. I will probably have to change some of the MCBs to suit my installation though.

 

[Engineer54]

No problems with the main circuits whatever. We do use CFL lamps here but they don't last 3 years! I think I might have some sort of problem with the downstairs lighting circuit but changing it will be a nightmare. Suspended ceiling and there is a concrete slab floor above.
Electricity company said 3 phase would be 15 Amps. Guy up the road installed 3 phase and it cost him a fortune - ₤2,500 against ₤100 for single phase.

As i said, shouldn't be too much of a problem having a 30A supply, so long as you don't go overboard and start switching everything on for any length of time!! In France, i think the supply starts at 15A and the more Amp's you want supplied the higher the cost installation and monthly costs. UK is quite unique in Europe, in that a standard supply can be anything between 60, 80, 100A on a single phase supply and costs nothing to upgrade between those values!! lol!!

Have to find a coupler then or make one up. Position will be quite good as it is right under the roof overhang so any rain will drop into that area. Plus it is at the edge of the “lawn” so should get watered fairly regularly.

Earth rods of 5/8'' and over, come with threads at each end, a made for purpose coupler fits these threads, i doubt if you can make one up. Pretty sure if they sell purpose made earth rods then they will also supply couplers and driving heads that fit the coupler for driving purposes!!

Plugs and switched are both rated 16A / 250V and they are the standard out here. Haven't had any problems in my house with the fixed installations. Extension leads are another problem though.

I couldn't tell you, the projects i have worked on in Thailand used German (DIN) Shucko type socket outlets, throughout. Which wouldn't fit the wall plates you posted up, as the earth is in the form of a scraping earth, between plugtop and wall socket.

No chance of hiring these. Rental places are pretty good for the normal building stuff but nothing technical. I can buy these (knocks a bit more of a hole in my budget - lol) but I like having tools about on the basis that if you've used them once then you're likely to need them again. I have to run some sort of wiring up the garden in due course so would need stuff for that.
As you say I'll need to find someone to use them properly. It's possible that my wife's father has some idea but I don't want to rely on him too much.
I've asked round the local ex-pat sites about a good electrician so might get a nibble or two from there.

You can purchase a single MFT (Multi Function Tester) that will be able to perform all the required installation tests, or they come in separates Check out the forums sponsor at ''test-meter.co.uk'' which will give you some idea of cost in the UK....
Let's hope you can locate a Western Expat electrician that's fairly local to you're location, it'll save you a lot of time, worry and possibly money!! lol!!