No earth on lighting circuit

[Mohammed karani]

Went for an ECR check and found no earth on lighting circuit, board just been updated last year (Wylex 10 way RCD board), phoned the landlord and said someone recommended to put class 2 fitings but walls have metal capping and switches and accessories are brass/ metal fittings but the code is c2,

Am I right or wrong?, I’m confused

 

[JBW175]

It’s a C2 from me, if the Circuits got no CPC and there’s class 1 fittings in use.

 

[Mike Johnson]

IMO all circuits should have a CPC even if its not used, never know what changes will be made to the installation/fittings in the future.

 

[Pretty Mouth]

Went for an ECR check and found no earth on lighting circuit, board just been updated last year (Wylex 10 way RCD board), phoned the landlord and said someone recommended to put class 2 fitings but walls have metal capping and switches and accessories are brass/ metal fittings but the code is c2,

Am I right or wrong?, I’m confused

C2 for me too. It can be changed to a C3 by changing all installed equipment to plastic/class2. Detailed info on this in Best Practice Guide 1. Metal capping (I assume you mean the stuff installed over the cable as protection prior to plasterering?) not relevant to this non-compliance as it isn't usually intentionally earthed.

 

[7029 dave]

C2 for me, needs rewiring.

 

[moose]

In a perfect world you would rewire the property and advise to do the rewire.

C2 is all you can recommend and a notice at the board to state the CPC is not present to lighting circuit.
with reference to no metal fittings can be connected to that circuit.

Remember you are there to test as the edition it was wired at.

 

[Ian1981]

In a perfect world you would rewire the property and advise to do the rewire.

C2 is all you can recommend and a notice at the board to state the CPC is not present to lighting circuit.
with reference to no metal fittings can be connected to that circuit.

Remember you are there to test as the edition it was wired at.

You are definitely NOT there to test to the edition it was installed to.
You inspect and test to the current edition of the wiring regulations.
I cannot understand the difficulty in electricians undertaking EICR’s understanding this basic requirement.

 

[moose]

You are definitely NOT there to test to the edition it was installed to.
You inspect and test to the current edition of the wiring regulations.
I cannot understand the difficulty in electricians undertaking EICR’s understanding this basic requirement.

If the building was built in 16th edition you can not test it to the 18th edition. You can advise to the new editions rules to what applies today.

 

[Ian1981]

If the building was built in 16th edition you can not test it to the 18th edition. You can advise to the new editions rules to what applies today.

That is incorrect, tell me, as anything we code can be backed up by a regulation, what regulation number would you refer to if for example , sockets upto 32 amps non rcd protected supplying mobile equipment outdoors?
The answer is that you cannot as the 16th edition did not require rcd protection for socket outlets upto the 32 amps ( though it was required for sockets upto 20 amps maybe I can’t remember what rating it stopped at) we have today and unless you actually have a copy of the 16th edition, you cannot reference a regulation number.

 

[Pete999]

If the building was built in 16th edition you can not test it to the 18th edition. You can advise to the new editions rules to what applies today.

You test the install as is, AND REPORT any discrepancies to the current regulations, recommending ANY works that are needed to bring the install up to the current standards

 

[Ian1981]

This subject has been done to death and it winds me right up that supposedly competent and skilled persons are supposed to carry out this type of work, yet they don’t understand the basic requirement to inspect and use the current edition of the wiring regulations as a tool to recommend improvement of safety with the C3 code for example for installations that do not comply with the current edition of bs7671 but are not necessarily unsafe by being installed to a previous standard and do not require upgrading.

 

[moose]

Therefore you have advised the client with the new code a problem that could occur in the property.

But does not require a rewire maybe a update to a breaker if it does not make the property more or less dangerous.

 

[westward10]

If the building was built in 16th edition you can not test it to the 18th edition. You can advise to the new editions rules to what applies today.

Strictly speaking the testing is little different to previous Regulations however your inspection must include any non-compliance with the requirements of BS7671 which may give rise to danger, see Regulation 653.2. BS7671 will be the current version as previous editions are no longer current therefore departures which may give rise to danger regardless of when it was installed must be noted in the Report.

 

[7029 dave]

This subject has been done to death and it winds me right up that supposedly competent and skilled persons are supposed to carry out this type of work, yet they don’t understand the basic requirement to inspect and use the current edition of the wiring regulations as a tool to recommend improvement of safety with the C3 code for example for installations that do not comply with the current edition of bs7671 but are not necessarily unsafe by being installed to a previous standard and do not require upgrading.

Or a c2 just like this very thread

 

[Ian1981]

Or a c2 just like this very thread

Yes this particular non compliance is definitely potentially dangerous.

 

[moose]

If the building was built in 16th edition you can not test it to the 18th edition. You can advise to the new editions rules to what applies today.

Look at the last sentence beginning with the word 'You' can etc

Says it all really quote new regs and what applies end off...

 

[7029 dave]

If the building was built in 16th edition you can not test it to the 18th edition. You can advise to the new editions rules to what applies today.

Look at the last sentence beginning with the word 'You' can etc

Says it all really quote new regs and what applies end off...

It's not a question that you can advice, it is that you have to.

 

[Pete999]

This subject has been done to death and it winds me right up that supposedly competent and skilled persons are supposed to carry out this type of work, yet they don’t understand the basic requirement to inspect and use the current edition of the wiring regulations as a tool to recommend improvement of safety with the C3 code for example for installations that do not comply with the current edition of bs7671 but are not necessarily unsafe by being installed to a previous standard and do not require upgrading.

Agree, and therein lies the problem with some people that claim to be Competent Electricians.

 

[moose]

The client will do as he pleases no matter the given report. but most will get the new upgrades.

 

[loz2754]

If the building was built in 16th edition you can not test it to the 18th edition. You can advise to the new editions rules to what applies today.

Look at the last sentence beginning with the word 'You' can etc

Says it all really quote new regs and what applies end off...

So by your logic, you would need to hold a certificate that shows you're competent to test and inspect, for every edition of the wiring regulations you come across.
You would also need to have all the reference books for each edition that you come across.
This is just nonsensical.
We test and inspect to the current edition, we are required to hold a certificate for the current 18th edition.
We report the findings of our test and inspection, and note any non compliance with the current 18th edition, each non compliance being rated as C1, C2, C3 or FI.
We recognize that many installations were designed to a previous edition, of course, but our reason for doing any of this is to assess whether the installation is deemed safe for continued use.

I too am at a loss as to why so many find this a difficult concept to grasp.

 

[Lucien Nunes]

Remember you are there to test as the edition it was wired at.

Well that could be awkward! What if I find a double-pole switchfuse installed under the 11th edition, that has had its neutral solid-linked to comply with later editions. So I have to test to the 11th edition and give it a C2 for having its neutral fuse bypassed, but at the same time give an advisory that the neutral fuse should be bypassed. Lol.

 

[loz2754]

The client will do as he pleases no matter the given report. but most will get the new upgrades.

It's irrelevant what the client does with the report. We can only advise.

 

[Pete999]

The client will do as he pleases no matter the given report. but most will get the new upgrades.

If the Client has the required information, and does nowt, then the Client deserves the fallout come sale time, as long as the report states the problems that are present, the reporter is in the clear, job done, end of, story over.

 

[moose]

I think you are reading to much into the sentences.

My logic is new 18th edition when testing. see what has changed or is unsafe.
Then make the report.

 

[7029 dave]

I think you are reading to much into the sentences.

My logic is new 18th edition when testing. see what has changed or is unsafe.
Then make the report.

I think you are reading to much into the sentences.

My logic is new 18th edition when testing. see what has changed or is unsafe.
Then make the report.

But your post#8 don't say that, anyway if you have learnt something today then that is good isn't it, condition reports are complex with installations ranging through the decades.

 

[moose]

I haven't learned anything from people reading to much into what I have typed. ?
Oh hang on, I need to maybe try to get my understanding so you also understand it.

Probably wont happen, but Ill have fun trying.

You have a great sense of humour that I can see from these pages here.

I will I am sure learn something from other points in the forums else where.

 

[Midwest]

Anyway, back to the original post. Didn't do EICR's and this subject has been done to death.

ESF Best Practise Guide 4 gives guidance on this very subject. This one I've linked here, seems to have removed the ambiguity between 10.7 and their flow chart, that previous ones had. No reference to a domestic property not being a installation under supervision. Perhaps ESF changed it after all the emails & calls they had about 10.7 ?

 

[westward10]

You shouldn't really need a Guide book. Earthing is a requirement for ADS so with this missing you have the risk of electric shock.

 

[Midwest]

You shouldn't really need a Guide book. Earthing is a requirement for ADS so with this missing you have the risk of electric shock.

We need all forms of literature to learn a subject.

 

[Ian1981]

I think that the best practice guide is a good form of guidance and is worth a read for anyone involved with inspection and testing but I think westward maybe referring to the fact that inspectors rely too much on it and should refer more to bs7671?

 

[westward10]

ADS is a fundamental principle of safety you shouldn't need a Guide to indicate the importance of a missing cpc.

 

[telectrix]

even if class 2 fittings are used, a fault L-exposed part (metal back box) will not be detected.faceplate screws in switches coud be at 240V causing injury or death. this used to be addressed by fitting back boxes with plastic lugs back in the 60. definitely a C2.

on a side note, just fitted an extremely expensive LED chandelier. 16kG.in weight. although the driver is clearly marked class 2 SELV, earth leads are provided to the metal casing and to the ceiling bracket. ( the only 240V in the fitting is direct to the driver in sheathed cable.

 

[Midwest]

I think that the best practice guide is a good form of guidance and is worth a read for anyone involved with inspection and testing but I think westward maybe referring to the fact that inspectors rely too much on it and should refer more to bs7671?

Clearly for some it indeed is a good read.

I don‘t think BS7671 gives very clear guidance IMO. It’s just a book with regulations. That’s why there’s a plethora of other publications and why the exam for each new addition is a farce, just testing someones ability on how to use its contents and index pages.

The other publications are a bit more descriptive for us less intelligent, no offence meant. ?

 

[Mike Johnson]

the exam for each new addition is a farce, just testing someones ability on how to use its contents and index pages.

That's what all exams are, just a test to know if the examined reaches their limit of knowledge they know how to find out the relevant information.

 

[Midwest]

That's what all exams are, just a test to know if the examined reaches their limit of knowledge they know how to find out the relevant information.

When I returned to the industry a few years ago, I paid to go on a 3 day C&G 17th course with my local training college, thinking it would bring me up to speed. I didn't think for one minute it would educate me over all the changes since I'd left, but a flavour of things. We had a very good 5 minute introduction to the course. But after that it went down hill. We could of been looking at Fanny Cradock's 100 top recipes, for all the instruction I was given.

By contrast, I later went on a commercial training establishment, for initial inspection & testing, far more informative.

If I was told a 3 day course for CG 2382, will tell you how to use a contents & index for a book, I would of done the 1 day course.