no earth

[sima24]

Hi, been to look at a rewire today and no earth connection at all. Tried to contact supply company to enquire weather the property is connected to a pme system but no joy after holding most the afternoon. I presume supply company doesnt have to supply an earth but just wondering if they would upgrade to pme or not? Or possibly it is a pme system but earth has been disconnected at some point (no sign of pme label tho) any views appreciated. Thanks.

 

[skydog1]

I don't know what type of property or building, but can you not make it a TT system with an inspection pit and earth rod.

 

[sima24]

Yes thats the plan if their is no earth connection. Just seems strange for the location and age of the property that their appears to be no earth or rod currently installed.

 

[Toonlad]

Test it as 2 wire test. Or look in street and see what they have done to cables, are they still overhead, but not earthed down the poles every so often. Go knock on a few doors in the street, and explain what your trying to establish.

 

[chilliwilly]

Its one of the biggest pitfalls when quoting for or carrying out electrical work edpecially in older properties.

The biggest excuse they use is "its looped of next door and they neen to be in for us to pme it".

Under the old 16th edition, it wasn't reccomended that a smoke alarm should be connected to an rcd. And I would mention that to them that if there were a loss arising from smoke alarms not working due to loss of power and flat batteries. They may be called in court to share or take the blame for not supplying a reliable power supply intended for public use.

Within a week I would have a date for them to do a pme. The trouble is they keep changing the number for the network operator.

 

[Knobhead]

Its one of the biggest pitfalls when quoting for or carrying out electrical work edpecially in older properties.

The biggest excuse they use is "its looped of next door and they neen to be in for us to pme it".

Under the old 16th edition, it wasn't reccomended that a smoke alarm should be connected to an rcd. And I would mention that to them that if there were a loss arising from smoke alarms not working due to loss of power and flat batteries. They may be called in court to share or take the blame for not supplying a reliable power supply intended for public use.

Within a week I would have a date for them to do a pme. The trouble is they keep changing the number for the network operator.

You in the right thread?
Looped supply
Smokes
16th

 

[chilliwilly]

Yes are you?

 

[sima24]

Thanks. Would it be possible to temp connect an earth cable into the neutral henley thats already their and perform a ze test?

 

[MDJ]

You said there is no earth, have you established what system is there? TNS etc? connecting to a neutral if you have no idea what the earthing arrangement is even if the reading isn't there could be opening a can of worms, have you got a picture of the cut out and meter we can look at before you kill someone?

 

[sima24]

Thats the whole point of the question. As already stated their is no earth connection or rod, so im pressuming its a tt system in which case i will rod, the aim of my question is is it possible to test just incase it is a tncs system and someone over the years has disconnected main cpc

 

[MDJ]

well it's pretty easy to determine whether it is tt or a tns, pretty straight forward, if tt then you wasted your time on the phone, get a rod in and go from there, if tns you should know if an earth is available by looking at the incommer and using a loop tester.

 

[MDJ]

Thats the whole point of the question. As already stated their is no earth connection or rod, so im pressuming its a tt system in which case i will rod, the aim of my question is is it possible to test just incase it is a tncs system and someone over the years has disconnected main cpc

I doubt its TNCs, very unlikely, you would know by the incommer cut out unless very old.

 

[sima24]

Thanks. Yes it is very old and im 90% sure its a tt system, however didnt know if their was a simple way of testing to confirm, as iv never come across this situation before

 

[Des 56]

the aim of my question is is it possible to test just incase it is a tncs system and someone over the years has disconnected main cpc

No

You need the supplier to tell you


The cost with Western power was £90 and they fit the piece of earth and a block
Alternatively do what I did,d fit your own piece of earth and block and they connect for £35

 

[sima24]

Cheers, yeh i tried that today, no joy. Maybe i will try their sales line tomorrow, sure i will get straight through

 

[Mork]

Please dont connect an earth to the neutral to test for Ze, whats the point you may aswell test between live & neutral its the same thing.If its a TNS do a loop test between the cable sheath & live, for TNCS do a loop test between live and the earth terminal provided on the cut out
,no reading no PME connection. Sounds to me its a TT system & poss using the water main as the source of earthing!

 

[chilliwilly]

Like mdj says stick a rod in the ground, get a reading and see if you need any more rods.

 

[Guitarist]

Cheers, yeh i tried that today, no joy. Maybe i will try their sales line tomorrow, sure i will get straight through

You should not be talking to the sales line. Press whichever button gets you through to the power cut dept, and from there you should be able to talk to someone regarding getting an engineer out within 48 hrs to sort the earthing out. I find it strange that there is no sign of an earth at all, past or present...

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Its one of the biggest pitfalls when quoting for or carrying out electrical work edpecially in older properties.

The biggest excuse they use is "its looped of next door and they neen to be in for us to pme it".

Under the old 16th edition, it wasn't reccomended that a smoke alarm should be connected to an rcd. And I would mention that to them that if there were a loss arising from smoke alarms not working due to loss of power and flat batteries. They may be called in court to share or take the blame for not supplying a reliable power supply intended for public use.

Within a week I would have a date for them to do a pme. The trouble is they keep changing the number for the network operator.

had this one more than once....

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Like mdj says stick a rod in the ground, get a reading and see if you need any more rods.

or alternatively you could do it right...

get 3X 5/8" rods 2 connectors and a striking top...

dig a hole where you intend to site the rod (about a meter away from the building so as not to intercept any foundation/building rubble)...you dig the hole where you intend to site the rod to ensure there are no buried services there....
once you have verified its safe to drive rods down...start doing so...once the first rod is in connect the second rod onto the first and carry on driving it in...
once the second rod is in get a test on it....
you may not need the third rod...if not then the wholesalers should accept it back as long as it hasn`t been used/damaged....

 

[Knobhead]

Has the OP at any point mentioned loop in loop out?

 

[Geordie Spark]

You should not be talking to the sales line. Press whichever button gets you through to the power cut dept, and from there you should be able to talk to someone regarding getting an engineer out within 48 hrs to sort the earthing out. I find it strange that there is no sign of an earth at all, past or present...

It's quite common here in Geordieland.

A lot of my work was in Tyneside flats which were built about 1910 and were originally lit by gas with electricity being installed later (1920 onwards I think)

Houses built in the 1920s were supplied with electricity as they were built. Neither these houses nor the flats had any form of earth supplied other than via the water incomer.

 

[sima24]

Thanks to all, iv installed .any rods and more than comfortable with that, as someome else i found it strange their was no form of earthing at all, thats whats threw me as iv never came across a property without a system already in weather it be tncs tns or tt

 

[njh]

Just to throw another spanner in the works, you mention it's a very old property, are the suppliers cable lead sheathed (pilc) they used to sweat an earth on to the lead sheath as an earth. These tend to break off over time with years of abuse. If so get on to supply company for upgrade, think its a free service, although I may be wrong.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Just to throw another spanner in the works, you mention it's a very old property, are the suppliers cable lead sheathed (pilc) they used to sweat an earth on to the lead sheath as an earth. These tend to break off over time with years of abuse. If so get on to supply company for upgrade, think its a free service, although I may be wrong.

and trying to get them to come out if the sheath earth has come off?...they will just say `it aint distributer earth`....and as such will just tell you to rod it....
any excuse not to come out...

 

[Happyneiller]

Just stick a rod in - what's the issue ?

 

[chilliwilly]

Has the OP at any point mentioned loop in loop out?

No I don't think they have now you come to mention it, one of them prefers cheese and and onion, and the other prefers a ploughmans lunch with a gill.

Hope this helps?

 

[Engineer54]

I don't quite understand why people are saying that the existing earthing system is a TT system?? If it doesn't have an earth electrode, then it can't be a TT system. It's just an installation that doesn't have any earthing provided!!

 

[chilliwilly]

or alternatively you could do it right...

get 3X 5/8" rods 2 connectors and a striking top...

dig a hole where you intend to site the rod (about a meter away from the building so as not to intercept any foundation/building rubble)...you dig the hole where you intend to site the rod to ensure there are no buried services there....
once you have verified its safe to drive rods down...start doing so...once the first rod is in connect the second rod onto the first and carry on driving it in...
once the second rod is in get a test on it....
you may not need the third rod...if not then the wholesalers should accept it back as long as it hasn`t been used/damaged....

If its a back to back around Armley, doing it "right" might not be an option and certainly not profitable for a rewire quote.

 

[chilliwilly]

I don't quite understand why people are saying that the existing earthing system is a TT system?? If it doesn't have an earth electrode, then it can't be a TT system. It's just an installation that doesn't have any earthing provided!!

It has to be treat like one to illiminate the code 2 departure to allow an addition or alteration.

 

[Engineer54]

It has to be treat like one to illiminate the code 2 departure to allow an addition or alteration.

Pardon?? If there isn't a made electrode connected to the installation, then it's not a TT system, it's that simple!!

The OP's best bet, is to contact the area's DNO and ask if a PME connection is available on the distribution cable supplying this house.

 

[chilliwilly]

Pardon?? If there isn't a made electrode connected to the installation, then it's not a TT system, it's that simple!!

The OP's best bet, is to contact the area's DNO and ask if a PME connection is available on the distribution cable supplying this house.

Can you tell me what defines a TT system please? And what is wrong with inserting one or more spikes in the ground to create or improve the earthing arrangement, for pre testing or design for a permanent earthing atrangement?

 

[thekernal]

Hi, been to look at a rewire today and no earth connection at all. Tried to contact supply company to enquire weather the property is connected to a pme system but no joy after holding most the afternoon. I presume supply company doesnt have to supply an earth but just wondering if they would upgrade to pme or not? Or possibly it is a pme system but earth has been disconnected at some point (no sign of pme label tho) any views appreciated. Thanks.

Hi. I had the same problem. Went to upgrade the cu at my new house currently and the was no earth. No connected or visible earth rod and no pme.
I called southern electric on the distribution number and they forwarded me to the electrical emergency department.

They booked a pme enquiry but said there would be a charge after they establist it could be done. When the guys from the board came round they did a Ze, got 0.18 ohms. Threw a 16mm in to their neutral and gave me an MET and a length of 16mm to connect the new cu. No charge. Didnt even want a cuppa.

Couldn't have asked for a better result.

 

[Engineer54]

Can you tell me what defines a TT system please? And what is wrong with inserting one or more spikes in the ground to create or improve the earthing arrangement, for pre testing or design for a permanent earthing atrangement?

Nothing wrong in inserting one or more rods/spikes in the ground to create or improve any earthing arrangement, be it TN-S or TNC-S or even to improve an existing TT system etc!! In electrical earthing terms, a TT system needs an earth electrode. As the OP has stated that no earthing is present at this installation, and no mention of bonding connections to service pipes (not that i would call that a TT system either, which is also not permissible )etc, then it ain't a TT system is it??

 

[Guitarist]

Pardon?? If there isn't a made electrode connected to the installation, then it's not a TT system, it's that simple!!

The OP's best bet, is to contact the area's DNO and ask if a PME connection is available on the distribution cable supplying this house.

Totally agree, and can't see the issue here. When I find installations with bad earth connections, UKPN treat it as an emergency, and if they can't get out straight away, they'll certainly be out within 48 hours.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

If its a back to back around Armley, doing it "right" might not be an option and certainly not profitable for a rewire quote.

well for a start...you`l find that a lot of `em in back to back areas like armley, harehills etc are TN-S....theres often evidence though of the old earth rod in the cellars...

be aware as well that quite a few of `em (not all) but quite a few are high....

 

[Geordie Spark]

well for a start...you`l find that a lot of `em in back to back areas like armley, harehills etc are TN-S....theres often evidence though of the old earth rod in the cellars...

be aware as well that quite a few of `em (not all) but quite a few are high....

Is that because of what is growing in the cellars??

 

[Silly Sausage]

Is that because of what is growing in the cellars??

Can't be spotted by the helicopters!

 

[Geordie Spark]

Can't be spotted by the helicopters!

Exactly !!!!

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Can't be spotted by the helicopters!

well Archy...
i have it on good information the current trend for growers is to erect a kind of `tent` in the loft...this shields any horticultural activities from `prying eyes`..

i also have it on good information that the current trend for growers is erm...well, nicking current....