Not getting free electricity with PV panels.

[nyi]

I have had PV panels installed recently (rent-a-roof scheme). They are working fine. But I don't think I'm getting free electrity. On one sunny day, the panels were producing 2kwh and I was using only 200 watts ( I knew it by reading a gadget given by e.on). But the meter (digital one) still clocked up as it normally would. My understanding is that while the panels are producing more than what I'm using, the meter should not clock up. Am I right?
Many thanks in advance for the answers/comments.

Nyi

 

[poheZ]

I would assume the EON energy meter device is not bi direcional and cannot give you an accurate reading now the panels have been installed.

The best way to see if you are using grid generated power is to see if you grid installed meter is turning or pulsing, if it isnt then great!

 

[Gary K]

You are correct, there is a possability that your meter is configured to an anti tamper setting where electricity flowing to the grid through your meter is being added to the import figure - this is to defeat people who rewire their meter in an attempt to avoid paying for the electricity. I would suggest that when the panels are producing, you turn off all the circuits at the fuse box so you are not using any juice and see if the meter still clocks up. There are several treads on here regarding this.
Depending on where you have the clamps for the E.O.N meter it is also possible that you are exporting 200 watts and using the rest as they cannot tell direction of flow.

 

[Earthstore]

Gary is correct, however if your PV is connected into your consumer unit and you turn it off then your PV system will stop working too.
Just a thought Gary.

 

[nyi]

Thanks poheZ. The grid installed meter was pulsing despite the panels were producing more than 10 times I was using at that time.

 

[Gary K]

Gary is correct, however if your PV is connected into your consumer unit and you turn it off then your PV system will stop working too.
Just a thought Gary.

But it WILL stop the meter. LOL
Earthy is correct turn off the curcuits for the lights, ringmain etc

 

[poheZ]

then it is worth turning all circuits off apart from your pv circuit and see what happens to your pulse meter

 

[Gavin A]

what make of meter is it?

meter I've had this issue with has been a siemens.

 

[nyi]

what make of meter is it?

meter I've had this issue with has been a siemens.

It is not a siemens. It is AMPY METERING-UK.

 

[moggy1968]

Also, if they have used the wrong size cable on the install it may be that the voltage drop is too high so there is no flow from the inverter to your outlets.
How far is the distance from the inverter to the consumer unit. Does the cable from the inverter look the same size as the one for your sockets or is it bigger?

 

[Del Boy]

Depending on where you have the clamps for the E.O.N meter it is also possible that you are exporting 200 watts and using the rest as they cannot tell direction of flow.

A very good point... you might even have been using 2.2kW, generating 2kW and therefore importing 200W, and this is what the E.ON meter is telling you. The import meter would be clocking up if this was the case.

Whereabouts have you positioned the clamp meter?

I agree with Earthstore and Gary with turning off all the circuits but keeping the main box on and the solar pv generating. If the meter still goes up then, that would be worrying!

 

[Gavin A]

It is not a siemens. It is AMPY METERING-UK.

hmm, they're usually rebadged landis Gyr meters (E110 if i remember right). I've not known them to have problems, but it's possible they have that functionality that one of the energy suppliers chose to switch on.

 

[nyi]

A very good point... you might even have been using 2.2kW, generating 2kW and therefore importing 200W, and this is what the E.ON meter is telling you. The import meter would be clocking up if this was the case.

Whereabouts have you positioned the clamp meter?

I agree with Earthstore and Gary with turning off all the circuits but keeping the main box on and the solar pv generating. If the meter still goes up then, that would be worrying!

I was pretty sure that the the panels were producing 2.2Kwh on that day and the only electrical thing switched on was a fridge, and the meter still clocked up.

I swiched off the main (and the panels were generating) and the meter stopped completely.

I don't know whether E.ON knows I have the panels installed. It was rent-a-roof scheme. I thought the installer told them.

 

[nyi]

A very good point... you might even have been using 2.2kW, generating 2kW and therefore importing 200W, and this is what the E.ON meter is telling you. The import meter would be clocking up if this was the case.

Whereabouts have you positioned the clamp meter?

I agree with Earthstore and Gary with turning off all the circuits but keeping the main box on and the solar pv generating. If the meter still goes up then, that would be worrying!

At that time Sunnybean was showing that the panels were producing 2.2Kwh. The e.on gadget that tells how much I'm using was telling me 200 watts. I have this gadget for 2 years and I am sure it only tells me the usage only. The clamp for the gadget is on the wire ( marked with brown tape and the letter L) that goes into the meter.

 

[Mark.W]

Have you got night storage by any chance?!

 

[nyi]

hmm, they're usually rebadged landis Gyr meters (E110 if i remember right). I've not known them to have problems, but it's possible they have that functionality that one of the energy suppliers chose to switch on.

I'm not sure e.on knows I have the panels. I thought the installer would have told them.

 

[nyi]

Have you got night storage by any chance?!

I do not know. How can I find out? What difference would it make if I had night storage?

 

[Mark.W]

I went to a job once where a guy had panels installed, he had the same problem in that his meter was clocking up the units regardless! He had the spark around a couple of times and was reassured that everything was correctly wired! I went in after he asked for a second opinion and found that the spark had split the tails before the night storage meter and installed a submain for the PV! Now because it was split there it was on the wrong side of the peak meter which meant that when he was running appliances, the current was passing through the main meter and clocking up the units!

 

[Earthstore]

Eon have nothing to do with your install, firstly all systems under 3.68KW can be intsalled then the DNO (people that own the grid) Ie Scottish and Southern in my area have to be informed by the installer that a system has been fitted, this is done under G83 guidlines, if they have done this or not it will not affect you.

Secondly, they have to register with a FIT provider so they can recieve their payments, which they could use EON or they can use whoever they choose, I tend to use Good Energy for my customers, as I like the customer service that they provide.


Night storage heaters are metal things that are fixed to the walls of your house, that get hot during the night to keep you warm, instead of have a boiler and radiators, or a real fire.

 

[Del Boy]

At that time Sunnybean was showing that the panels were producing 2.2Kwh. The e.on gadget that tells how much I'm using was telling me 200 watts. I have this gadget for 2 years and I am sure it only tells me the usage only. The clamp for the gadget is on the wire ( marked with brown tape and the letter L) that goes into the meter.

The gadget has worked for 2 years but that was before your solar install... it's different now, hopefully I can explain why.

Where you have positioned the clamp meter, it won't show you your usage only now. The clamp is bi-directional, it can never show a negative. So will show what current is flowing through the wire, irrespective of direction.

As you have this on the Live wire going into or out of your import meter, it will show you either:

a) Net amount being imported: Usage minus generation or
b) Net amount being exported: Generation minus usage

In your example, this could be either

a) 200W being imported = 2.2kW usage minus 2kW generation
b) 200W being exported = 1.8kW usage minus 2kW generation

You can test this by turning off all the mains whilst the PV is still generating. The E.ON gadget should say a little bit less than your SunnyBeam (as it is assuming a lower voltage to what your inverter is generating) but should be roughly the same, so I would expect 2kW generation to show about 1.8kW on your E.ON gadget, the generation meter to be flashing and going up and the import meter to not be going up.

You can get the gadget to measure usage only, if you are able to position the clamp inbetween the consumer unit and the junction where the solar pv and grid mains meet. On a lot of installs though, this is inside the consumer unit, so not really possible.

Admittedly, this might be a red-herring to your problem, which sounds the case if you only had the fridge on.

 

[clivep]

Exactly as Del Boy has said. Gadget is showing net import or export but does not identify which. I usually deduce this by simply turning on a light... if the gadget reading goes up then you are importing, if the reading goes down then then you are exporting.

My Siemens meter had the anti-tamper setting turned on so that the reading shown was the total of the import and export registers. EDF has since had the meter changed.

 

[nyi]

The gadget has worked for 2 years but that was before your solar install... it's different now, hopefully I can explain why.

Where you have positioned the clamp meter, it won't show you your usage only now. The clamp is bi-directional, it can never show a negative. So will show what current is flowing through the wire, irrespective of direction.

As you have this on the Live wire going into or out of your import meter, it will show you either:

a) Net amount being imported: Usage minus generation or
b) Net amount being exported: Generation minus usage

In your example, this could be either

a) 200W being imported = 2.2kW usage minus 2kW generation
b) 200W being exported = 1.8kW usage minus 2kW generation

You can test this by turning off all the mains whilst the PV is still generating. The E.ON gadget should say a little bit less than your SunnyBeam (as it is assuming a lower voltage to what your inverter is generating) but should be roughly the same, so I would expect 2kW generation to show about 1.8kW on your E.ON gadget, the generation meter to be flashing and going up and the import meter to not be going up.

You can get the gadget to measure usage only, if you are able to position the clamp inbetween the consumer unit and the junction where the solar pv and grid mains meet. On a lot of installs though, this is inside the consumer unit, so not really possible.

Admittedly, this might be a red-herring to your problem, which sounds the case if you only had the fridge on.

Thank you, Del boy. I have had this gadget for 2 years. I have had the panels for only 2 months. Before the panels were installed, the gadget showed 150-200 watts if the freidge was the only thing which was on. It still showed 150-200watts after the panels were installed. What I want to say is the gadget only shows my usage before and after the panels were installed.
My main point is that although the panels are producing more than what I'm using, my meter is still clocking up.
Do I contact e.on (the supplier) or the electrician who did the work?
Many thanks.

 

[nyi]

Exactly as Del Boy has said. Gadget is showing net import or export but does not identify which. I usually deduce this by simply turning on a light... if the gadget reading goes up then you are importing, if the reading goes down then then you are exporting.

My Siemens meter had the anti-tamper setting turned on so that the reading shown was the total of the import and export registers. EDF has since had the meter changed.

Than you clivep. My gadget only shows the usage (import) - it would go up if I turn someting on and it would go down if I turn something off.

 

[Gavin A]

can you post up a picture of the wiring around the suppliers meter please?

I'm a bit suspicious that they may have installed to the wrong side of the meter. If it's not that, and your meter is clocking up as you say it is, then you definitely need the meter replacing.

 

[nyi]

can you post up a picture of the wiring around the suppliers meter please?

I'm a bit suspicious that they may have installed to the wrong side of the meter. If it's not that, and your meter is clocking up as you say it is, then you definitely need the meter replacing.

Thank you. I tried to upload but failed.

 

[sedgy34]

you want to be using as much as poss electricity when panels are generating.

 

[Gavin A]

Thank you. I tried to upload but failed.

click the 'go advanced' button below the quick reply box, then the paperclip icon third from right on top row of icons above the box you write in in the 'go advanced' section.

then click on the add file botton, top right in the pop up attachments box and search for the file on your computer etc.

you probably need to make sure the file isn't too big though.

 

[nyi]

Many thanks Gavin. Here they are in attachment

 

[SolarCity]

Yep, as expected, it is incorrectly connected. Your PV system is connected to the supply side of the meter. Effectively, you are still paying for the electricity that the PV system is generating.

Get the installers out straight away to sort it. Should only take them an hour.

 

[nyi]

Yep, as expected, it is incorrectly connected. Your PV system is connected to the supply side of the meter. Effectively, you are still paying for the electricity that the PV system is generating.

Get the installers out straight away to sort it. Should only take them an hour.

Thank you. Will call them. Which side it should be connected, just in case they don't know?

 

[SolarCity]

The PV system needs connecting on the LOAD side of the meter. It is currently connected to the SUPPLY side. To be honest, even a five-week-wonder electrician will be able to spot it straight away. Probably just a mistake when they installed it.

 

[moggy1968]

whoaaa there!!
the picture is of your main meter, not the PV meter which is above it.
can you post a piccie of the PV meter.
More of an issue is it looks to me as though that henley block (the big brown junction box) is actually bypassing the main meter. As abbove this is then feeding into the supply side of your main fuseboard (it would appear)It looks like the meter tails run from the fuse to the block, then to the PV system and the meter. That means you've bypassed the meter, and thats a criminal offense!
It's hard to see from the piccie, can you try and get a piccie flat on so I can trace the cable routing better.

Not the tidiest of jobs TBH
must have been installed by a time served spark eh solarcity!:wink_smile:

 

[SolarCity]

whoaaa there!!
the picture is of your main meter, not the PV meter which is above it.
can you post a piccie of the PV meter.

This is a rent-a-roofer. The PV meter is irrelevant to this problem.

 

[moggy1968]

I know, what I'm getting at though is that the main meter has been bypassed (it would appear).
Meanwhile, as I think your suggesting, it appears the PV is possibly charging the meter as it's feeding from the Henley block onto the supply side.

 

[Earthstore]

I just made the photo bigger, and followed the curly tails, and you are right, it looks like the PV is connected in between the main fuse and the supply meter, you can follow the tails from the supply meter up to CU if you look carefully.

Also where has the fuse seal gone?

It does make you wonder how many more installs have been done like this on the rent a roof schemes...

 

[Del Boy]

In your example, this could be either

a) 200W being imported = 2.2kW usage minus 2kW generation
b) 200W being exported = 1.8kW usage minus 2kW generation

... or c) The muppet of the rent-a-roofer company has wired up your generation to the supply side of your import meter, so you are "importing" 2.2kW... 200W on the normal wire, and 2kW of your own generation. D'oh!!!

Missed that one! I actually can't believe that to be honest. I should stop assuming that even the basics are done right all the time.

I wonder what this means for your bill, surely with this evidence, E.ON will have to estimate your usage for that period based off previous bills. I would be expecting the rent-a-roofer to be stumping up some cash for that.

I'm glad you've managed to get the help you wanted on here.

 

[SolarCity]

I wonder what this means for your bill, surely with this evidence, E.ON will have to estimate your usage for that period based off previous bills. I would be expecting the rent-a-roofer to be stumping up some cash for that.

It won't affect anything apart from the electricity that is generated not giving any advantage to him. He will still use it but the meter will read it - therefore not being free.

 

[Del Boy]

Ah ofcourse. Should've thought about that a little bit more. Silly me!

 

[nyi]

Ah ofcourse. Should've thought about that a little bit more. Silly me!

Dear all,

Sorry for the late reply. I contacted them and they came around and had a look at it. They read this forum. But they are still insisting that their work was done properly. But they can't answer my simple (and common sense) question - "why my meter is still going up while I'm using less energy than I'm producing at a given time?"
I told them that I will get a second opinion. And they told me that if someone touches and changes their job they won't be responsible for guranttee. And they won't do anything for me.
Can someone help me what to do next? This forum has been very useful and eductional. Many, many thanks to all of you.

I'm just a layman and not a electrician. But I think I'm unfairly treated.

I'm in Norwich. But isntaller was from cambridgeshire


Regards,

 

[Earthstore]

This is how it should be installed, lets assume they are using a henly block (the box that joins the large wires together)

Your mains fuse>your mains meter>henly block>pv system>Your consumer unit

What you have is; Mains fuse>PV system>your meter>your consumer unit.

Not only is it wrong because you will get no benefit from your PV it is also illegal because while the PV is on standby at night it will not be going through your meter as it has been bypassed, therefore the PV company are stealing supply from the Grid.

Do not be alarmed, if they think this is correct, contact your DNO (the people that own the grid in your area), and ask them to pop around and have a look, explain to them that you have a PV system, if you are lucky they may have someone with some PV knowledge that works for them.

I hope this helps.