Old Mill Electrical Installation

[masonelectrical]

Can you give me your comments on the attached pictures.

I have been asked to carry out remedial works in an old mill but disagree with a lot of the codes given to the distribution boards. The company who carried out the inspection described the boards as having reached the end off their serviceable
lives but then giving them a code 4. What are your comments

 

[TaffyDuck]

No such thing as a code 4 anymore I thought, I was under the impression C1 C2 and C3 where in place now.

As for the boards They are pretty archaic. I would be recommending upgrading if it was me.

 

[44ALLAN]

No such thing as a code 4 anymore I thought, I was under the impression C1 C2 and C3 where in place now.

As for the boards They are pretty archaic. I would be recommending upgrading if it was me.

Archaic !!!
I served my time on boards like that...............wheres me pipe and slippers

 

[telectrix]

bit of a tidy up and a coat of paint required. where's tony?

 

[TaffyDuck]

Archaic !!!
I served my time on boards like that...............wheres me pipe and slippers

Me too ! On that note do you know where I can find a VDE zimmer frame?

 

[44ALLAN]

Me too ! On that note do you know where I can find a VDE zimmer frame?

Not that old yet lol
Is there no zimmer frame shops on the high street next to all the bookies and payday loan shops

 

[TaffyDuck]

Not that old yet lol
Is there no zimmer frame shops on the high street next to all the bookies and payday loan shops

Could do with one with a built in commode too. And somewhere to strap a very powerful magnifying glass. And the government thinks I need to work for another 20 years before I retire! Yeah right

 

[44ALLAN]

Could do with one with a built in commode too. And somewhere to strap a very powerful magnifying glass. And the government thinks I need to work for another 20 years before I retire! Yeah right

Sounds like you need a mobile home not a zimmer mate lol

 

[Guitarist]

So you think the exposed live connections are ok? Code 4? Is the report quite old then?
I also served my time working on boards like that, and still have the scars to prove it...

 

[44ALLAN]

So you think the exposed live connections are ok? Code 4? Is the report quite old then?
I also served my time working on boards like that, and still have the scars to prove it...

I can still see some of the old sparks going in with bare hands and pulling the wires to one side .......still live !!
Makes me shiver to think about it.

 

[Engineer54]

If these DB's have lost the paxoline (or whatever) shields, then they can certainly be classed as being dangerous... lol!! That aside, i would also deem these fuse boards as being way past there serviceable live and should be renewed. Going by the main supply cable method, this would also include the cabling too, as they look very much like potted heads!! Similar system to the older cable raising mains....

These aren't going to be a cheap board/ CU changes, that's for sure!! lol!!

 

[Guitarist]

An old feed mill I worked in for a while had similar issues and all cabling was in galv trunking. When a safety ordit was carried out by the powers-that-be within the Company, they decided that it all had to be replaced at a cost of hundreds of thousands of pounds. This was part of the decision to eventually close the place. (I'm sure it had nothing to do with the fact that the site occupied prime waterfront land valued in the millions )

 

[polo1]

Tbh, not even sure why the issue of replacement is being queried - it's all been said^^^^^^^
Regards

 

[Guest111]

Those pics made me chuckle,When I was an apprentice we had loads of them at work and for some strange reason one was mounted upside down,now this presented an interesting situation.A lot of the machines were wired in the old varnished cambric inside flexible metal conduit,and due to it's age there would be a short every now and again,this was cured by removing the offending piece of cable individually(the boss was too tight to rewire the machine)now every so often the contact in the fuse holder would need a touch up with a contact file to clean them up.
One day a machine had gone bang as per usual and it was fed from the inverted board now this meant that the top contacts were live instead of the bottom ones.I pointed this out to our fitter as he headed off to file the contacts,at this point I was left to repair the machine.He gave his usual sarcastic reply about me being a lowly apprentice and teaching others to suck eggs,well about 5 minutes later there was a loud bang and a blue flash,followed by the appearence of a rather shaken fitter holding what was left of my file.Luckily for him as he put the file in the slot it was resting on a piece of earthed metal,so with the exception of a severely bruised ego and a change of underwear he suffered no permenant damage.His attitude towards me did change however and whenever contacts needed filing he would fetch the file and hand it to me saying "there you go mate let the expert do it"

 

[Engineer54]

Same here, brought up on such DB's, ...lol!! Only difference is, that all our DB's / Switch fuses and the like etc, were regularly maintained and cleaned. This was done every factory shutdown. Fuses pulled and re-wired (3036) flash protection changed regularly and cartridge fuses replaced every second shutdown, all shielding cleaned and all connections checked for tightness etc!!. Internally most looked as good as new, unlike those shown in the photo's above!! lol!!

 

[Darkwood]

Dont get me wrong they deffo recommend for change but if the doors are secured by wing nut fasteners then access can be gained without a tool and the exposed live parts are then a issue for you to make good temp' as anyone on site could put themselves in danger i would take a few minor steps like fitting a padlock and giving the key to the foreman/boss while you file your report and send it in..... if anyone gains access in the mean time you have taken steps to limit this so keeps you in the clear.... it also heightens the need to replace them to the client.

Because you can close the doors i would recommend at a minimum you fit an appropriate warning label warning of the dangers in access to the board.

If you found accessable exposed live parts in a domestic install it would be down to you to make this immediate danger safe whether a temp measure or not while you file your inspection report.

 

[AndyOz]

Same here, brought up on such DB's, ...lol!! Only difference is, that all our DB's / Switch fuses and the like etc, were regularly maintained and cleaned. This was done every factory shutdown. Fuses pulled and re-wired (3036) flash protection changed regularly and cartridge fuses replaced every second shutdown, all shielding cleaned and all connections checked for tightness etc!!. Internally most looked as good as new, unlike those shown in the photo's above!! lol!!

Remember those shutdowns well. We also had to paint it orange. Whether it was a fuse board, trunking, conduit, or a motor, any electrical equipment was orange.

You knew how everything worked though because you had stripped it down and rebuilt it. I would of not dreamed of asking my Forman for a new contractor knowing I could refurbish it.

Good times.

 

[AndyOz]

Phil d

I remember one board that did not have all bus bars at the top. From memory the red phase was fed at the top, yellow from the bottom and blue again from the top. The idea was around safety that when you were connecting to a fuse way you were not in close contact to an uninsulated bar.

The first enclosed busbar board I can remember was the red spot range.

 

[Guitarist]

I would of not dreamed of asking my Forman for a new contractor .

Always use contractors you already know

 

[Engineer54]

The first enclosed busbar board I can remember was the red spot range.​

​

One of the best ranges of fuse boards ever marketed in my opinion. Many of the older fuse boards i used to work on as an apprentice were changed for Red Spot boards...

 

[AndyOz]

Always use contractors you already know

Auto spell correction is a wonderful thing,

 

[Guest111]

Ah yes the good old orange,I wanted to paint the last install I did on the farm orange just for old times sake but they wouldn,t have it.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

So you think the exposed live connections are ok? Code 4? Is the report quite old then?
I also served my time working on boards like that, and still have the scars to prove it...

so you think the enclosures doesn`t count here then?

no safe iso then?

 

[nickblake]

Dropped one on my foot once ,dented the steel toecap had a little V in it needed new boots ,apart from trying not to drop it on your foot is watch out for the asbestos in those flash pads

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Dont get me wrong they deffo recommend for change but if the doors are secured by wing nut fasteners then access can be gained without a tool and the exposed live parts are then a issue for you to make good temp' as anyone on site could put themselves in danger i would take a few minor steps like fitting a padlock and giving the key to the foreman/boss while you file your report and send it in..... if anyone gains access in the mean time you have taken steps to limit this so keeps you in the clear.... it also heightens the need to replace them to the client.

Because you can close the doors i would recommend at a minimum you fit an appropriate warning label warning of the dangers in access to the board.

If you found accessable exposed live parts in a domestic install it would be down to you to make this immediate danger safe whether a temp measure or not while you file your inspection report.

but emptyheads shouldn`t be going into enclosures ...should they...

 

[Geordie Spark]

Me too ! On that note do you know where I can find a VDE zimmer frame?

I've left you mine in my will .............. Just be patient !!!

 

[Dcf]

That is one old set of boards.if it was me I would recommend replacement too.
was AC orange and DC painted red?just reminded me of a horrible plant I used to work in when I was an apprentice.it had a mercury arc rectifier which glowed like something out of star trek for the dc supply.god only knows how it worked never mind how they got it out when the plant got demolished.brings back memories of working on sh!te boards like that!

 

[wildgoose]

I've been involved with a colleague in progressively updating a mill over the last couple of years. Your pictures bring back memories of what this system was like but ours was about 3x the size, with a number of 75amp 3ph motors to control!

It's a wonder they have been allowed to get away with it by their insurance company - especially as a mill is a high risk area. Then of course they can also get a visit any day from the HSE and depending on who you get, those Guys can be very difficult to please. They won't let them off the hook until it's brought up to standard.

 

[Guitarist]

so you think the enclosures doesn`t count here then?

no safe iso then?

How many industrial installations have you been responsible for? Over the years, I've had to look after many, and there's no way I'd leave a setup like that in place, regardless of whether it was in an enclosure.
As for safe isolation, you've led a very sheltered life if you've never opened an industrial fuseboard without completely isolating it first!

 

[tidyboiler]

I've left you mine in my will .............. Just be patient !!!

Will you leave me your pacemaker then? I can put it on Ebay................. arty:

 

[44ALLAN]

Will you leave me your pacemaker then? I can put it on Ebay................. arty:

He's left that to me pet...............my batteries only have another 8 year to go

 

[Darkwood]

but emptyheads shouldn`t be going into enclosures ...should they...

The very point i was trying to make .... the old cast iron fuseboards don't really have much indication on them to what is inside and the dangers ....so even as a simple solution as you write up your report is to i always fit a warning sticker/sign .... a lot of factories i work in are full of immigrants who barely speak the queens english yet alone understand electric and its dangers so a visual pictured warning sign at least should twig a neuron to fire its a tad dangerous if they then ignore this its not my issue......... stupidity is everywhere we built a control system for a hopper feed which had a large inline fan... one day health and safety called us into a meeting explaining an accident had occured and a operator had lost his hand and we were asked how this could happen why were appropriate gaurds and limits not fitted.....

We looked at the machine and saw the chain of events that caused the accident and had a second meeting to explain ourselfs....

We explained when an operator climbs over the safety fencing on top of the machine and then starts to remove 20 captive bolts off the side of the fan case with the use of a torque set and then proceeds to unblock it as his collegue keeps checking as he shouts to see if it is unblocked then im afraid no amount of safety measures can prevent deliberate stupidity .... a breakdown in his communication while he unblocked the fan meant his collegue pressed the start button at the wrong time and the fan ws free enough to start up....

'Thankyou for your co-operation we will no longer need your assistance' ..... They were satisfied we had complied with the required H/S and met the requirements of the risk assessment on the machine but the company had failed in its training of operators, safety protocol etc and were handed a hefty fine ......

Just to highlight 'monkey see monkey do' they had seen it done by proper maintenance safety protocol but didn't want to pay and decided to try do it themselves... but missing out the crucial safety steps.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

The very point i was trying to make .... the old cast iron fuseboards don't really have much indication on them to what is inside and the dangers ....so even as a simple solution as you write up your report is to i always fit a warning sticker/sign .... a lot of factories i work in are full of immigrants who barely speak the queens english yet alone understand electric and its dangers so a visual pictured warning sign at least should twig a neuron to fire its a tad dangerous if they then ignore this its not my issue......... stupidity is everywhere we built a control system for a hopper feed which had a large inline fan... one day health and safety called us into a meeting explaining an accident had occured and a operator had lost his hand and we were asked how this could happen why were appropriate gaurds and limits not fitted.....

We looked at the machine and saw the chain of events that caused the accident and had a second meeting to explain ourselfs....

We explained when an operator climbs over the safety fencing on top of the machine and then starts to remove 20 captive bolts off the side of the fan case with the use of a torque set and then proceeds to unblock it as his collegue keeps checking as he shouts to see if it is unblocked then im afraid no amount of safety measures can prevent deliberate stupidity .... a breakdown in his communication while he unblocked the fan meant his collegue pressed the start button at the wrong time and the fan ws free enough to start up....

'Thankyou for your co-operation we will no longer need your assistance' ..... They were satisfied we had complied with the required H/S and met the requirements of the risk assessment on the machine but the company had failed in its training of operators, safety protocol etc and were handed a hefty fine ......

Just to highlight 'monkey see monkey do' they had seen it done by proper maintenance safety protocol but didn't want to pay and decided to try do it themselves... but missing out the crucial safety steps.

well this is a 3 anyway on an ECR...so just note it...and move on....if they dont want it sorting at least you have arse covered yourself....
i mean i wouldn`t just go round labeling up enclosures...unless they were paying for it dark..
after all its a service isn`t it...

 

[GLENNSPARK]

How many industrial installations have you been responsible for? Over the years, I've had to look after many, and there's no way I'd leave a setup like that in place, regardless of whether it was in an enclosure.
As for safe isolation, you've led a very sheltered life if you've never opened an industrial fuseboard without completely isolating it first!

i understand that sometimes safe iso cant be carried out before going into enclosures....so do you agree that only competant persons should be going into enclosures then?

 

[Darkwood]

Reminds me once i followed another companies Periodic (as known at the time) inspection report... it had a NOTE-1 live wire hanging down from ceiling and guess what yes live wire hanging down 3ph swa aout 7ft off ground and exposed ..... i couldn't believe their lack of competence as this warranted an immediate hazard to life and should have been disconnected...I rang them on behalf of the company and reemed them a new rectal passage ..at first they said its not their responsibility as it was only an inspection but had been noted! I quickly reminded them of their responsibilty for the safety of the customer and asked them if we had a fatality on site following their visit i would wonder where they stood legally as it was a dangerous situation they knew and walked away from ..... it took 5mins to disconnect.

Agree most of the time going about things and doing the report is fine but as a competent electrician where the case may be you are required if neccessary to make safe a hazard of such nature... 1 EICR i did shut the power off opened the DNO 's ISU and withdrew the fuses.... rang them and they were straight out kinda only one of the few times you can break the seals legally when the tails were melting together ......:shocked:

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Reminds me once i followed another companies Periodic (as known at the time) inspection report... it had a NOTE-1 live wire hanging down from ceiling and guess what yes live wire hanging down 3ph swa aout 7ft off ground and exposed ..... i couldn't believe their lack of competence as this warranted an immediate hazard to life and should have been disconnected...I rang them on behalf of the company and reemed them a new rectal passage ..at first they said its not their responsibility as it was only an inspection but had been noted! I quickly reminded them of their responsibilty for the safety of the customer and asked them if we had a fatality on site following their visit i would wonder where they stood legally as it was a dangerous situation they knew and walked away from ..... it took 5mins to disconnect.

Agree most of the time going about things and doing the report is fine but as a competent electrician where the case may be you are required if neccessary to make safe a hazard of such nature... 1 EICR i did shut the power off opened the DNO 's ISU and withdrew the fuses.... rang them and they were straight out kinda only one of the few times you can break the seals legally when the tails were melting together ......:shocked:

well i can fully understand your actions over a 1....but as for adequate labelling of enclosures etc....

 

[Darkwood]

Not labelling in that sense i meant if their isnt any form of indication that exposed live parts are present in an old box i just stick a sticker on as i test it not part of the full labelling it may require its just as a hazard warning if you can gain access without a tool ..while in the meantime i write the report up which will have my coded report on it.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Not labelling in that sense i meant if their isnt any form of indication that exposed live parts are present in an old box i just stick a sticker on as i test it not part of the full labelling it may require its just as a hazard warning if you can gain access without a tool ..while in the meantime i write the report up which will have my coded report on it.

well i suppose its like a duty of care thing....but it does not exonerate crappy management from their duties to their employees etc...

 

[Guitarist]

i understand that sometimes safe iso cant be carried out before going into enclosures....so do you agree that only competant persons should be going into enclosures then?

Firstly, I agree that only competent persons should be opening enclosures, just the same as only competent persons should be working on their own home installations. Doesn't always happen though in the real world, and I bet you've come across machine operators who carry adjustable spanners and screwdrivers just to "have a look". Yes, it would be their own fault if they went inside an enclosure, but an old MD I worked for once gave me some good real-world advice...treat the operators like children.
Secondly, even a competent person can hurt themself (yes, I've done it), especially when it's a breakdown at 3am, you're bone-tired, and the production supervisor is breathing down your neck.

 

[Darkwood]

Its likened to having a busbar chamber held closed with a wingnut...(how would you code this?) old boards are both dangerous to the general idiot and also the the competent electrician who has never seen such an aged board and as such should be treated with 100% respect and coded as such....the problem is that it is routine for unqualified non-competent workers to replace blown fuse wire but carries a risk of death unlike modern boards which dont require entry to reset devices and in most cases are designed to be finger safe within, the added danger here is that entry to the old fuseboard is invitable when a fuse blows where-as the busbar i meantioned dosn't have this problem.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Its likened to having a busbar chamber held closed with a wingnut...(how would you code this?) old boards are both dangerous to the general idiot and also the the competent electrician who has never seen such an aged board and as such should be treated with 100% respect and coded as such....the problem is that it is routine for unqualified non-competent workers to replace blown fuse wire but carries a risk of death unlike modern boards which dont require entry to reset devices and in most cases are designed to be finger safe within, the added danger here is that entry to the old fuseboard is invitable when a fuse blows where-as the busbar i meantioned dosn't have this problem.

well was working on an old mill in bradford recently it belongs to someone i know...(just off the thornton road/lister hills junction)....now that has a load of old boards and enclosures in there....and yep...wingnuts securing the lids. The busbar chamber has proper bolts securing the front thankfully.....there was a lot of cloth cable in there...which was shot...2 of the boards i condemned straightaway as the enclosures were damaged and the pot finger guards were badly cracked as well...theres some large metal trunking for the tails....all this is full of sharp edges and rags...i explained to him that it all needs bringing up to some sort of standard....but its the same old....money....felt like i had wasted my time really....

 

[Guitarist]

Same old story Glenn....they see that it's worked like that for ages and don't have the knowledge or experience (sometimes bad) to accept that things need upgrading.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again.... We probably work in the worst trade when it comes to getting people to listen to us.