panel query regarding protection

[Darkwood]

As this is a discussion in an open forum i would remove the schematics and at least blank the company name out at the top... you could find yourself in a legal tangle if this thread is brought to his attention as he could seek defamation.

Ps my Bedtime CYL

 

[Monty2010]

As this is a discussion in an open forum i would remove the schematics and at least blank the company name out at the top... you could find yourself in a legal tangle if this thread is brought to his attention as he could seek defamation.

Ps my Bedtime CYL

Yep same here, cheers for your input, drawings removed, I looked passed the name on them and missed it.

 

[Lagentium]

Those inverters are so user friendly it's unreal darkwood, that panels a right state too (tongue in cheek!)

 

[wozz]

As this is a discussion in an open forum i would remove the schematics and at least blank the company name out at the top... you could find yourself in a legal tangle if this thread is brought to his attention as he could seek defamation.

Ps my Bedtime CYL

Whilst I agree it's not a good idea to put a company name to it and I'm by no means a legal expert but I was told if you stick to fact and opinion you are ok, the fact is that is how the panel is, the op is asking for clarification on some points which in his opinion may not ok. There are far worse things that people say on here that are accepted , I really can't see a company spending time and effort going after someone for questioning a product. If they did it would make interesting reading as you would be free to tell people they are perusing you.

 

[Darkwood]

Whilst I agree it's not a good idea to put a company name to it and I'm by no means a legal expert but I was told if you stick to fact and opinion you are ok, the fact is that is how the panel is, the op is asking for clarification on some points which in his opinion may not ok. There are far worse things that people say on here that are accepted , I really can't see a company spending time and effort going after someone for questioning a product. If they did it would make interesting reading as you would be free to tell people they are perusing you.

Its more a forum policy too and when discrediting someone's work in the public eye if you name them or their company then those been discredited have the right to defend their actions and as they are not part of the conversation it can easily get to a stage where defamation is used.

Although we are discussing the BS60204-1 in particular here its wording in many area is 'preferably' - 'recommended' and many clauses have sub clauses which allow agreed deviations from the regs ...eg - colour coding of indicator lights may conflict with existing plant controls and thus an agreement is reached you will deviate from regulation and bring the panel in line with existing plant control colour codes.

From our observing point of view we have been given limited info so can only comment on what we see which could be misleading as we don't know the exact spec of the control system or any agreed excursions from regulations although we can point out where we feel the panel doesn't seem to be in line the LVD and more specifically 60204 - 1 as our discussion goes.

Like the BS7671 the Bs 60204 is a guide and there is as far as I know no legal requirement to follow it in the uk at least but there is a legal requirement to meet the health and safety issues in the directive thus following the relevant BS standards forms the best and easiest route to achieving this.

 

[Monty2010]

Update, panel builder drove 4.5hrs up to me today to ask what my concerns were.
after reading through 60204 and finding the c,artifices tigon I required on over-current protection I began explaining all his other faults. The panel has gone home with him, I believe he is rectifying it.

Biggest problem is he was ready on the counter attack and I think still doesn't see what's the problem with his panel. It's coming back up on the twelfth so will see if it's improved. Also major alterations to the control circuit.

and one to net Paul, you can use phase voltage for control circuit without an isolating TX, see method 3.

 

[Monty2010]

Its more a forum policy too and when discrediting someone's work in the public eye if you name them or their company then those been discredited have the right to defend their actions and as they are not part of the conversation it can easily get to a stage where defamation is used.

Although we are discussing the BS60204-1 in particular here its wording in many area is 'preferably' - 'recommended' and many clauses have sub clauses which allow agreed deviations from the regs ...eg - colour coding of indicator lights may conflict with existing plant controls and thus an agreement is reached you will deviate from regulation and bring the panel in line with existing plant control colour codes.

From our observing point of view we have been given limited info so can only comment on what we see which could be misleading as we don't know the exact spec of the control system or any agreed excursions from regulations although we can point out where we feel the panel doesn't seem to be in line the LVD and more specifically 60204 - 1 as our discussion goes.

Like the BS7671 the Bs 60204 is a guide and there is as far as I know no legal requirement to follow it in the uk at least but there is a legal requirement to meet the health and safety issues in the directive thus following the relevant BS standards forms the best and easiest route to achieving this.

Darkwood, i with you and thus is why I removed it, you can soon get yourself in a little trouble by shaming people and them taking offence if it's true in your opinion or not. This is why I took your advice and removed the details. Thanks fella for the rest of the info

 

[netblindpaul]

Update, panel builder drove 4.5hrs up to me today to ask what my concerns were.
after reading through 60204 and finding the c,artifices tigon I required on over-current protection I began explaining all his other faults. The panel has gone home with him, I believe he is rectifying it.

Biggest problem is he was ready on the counter attack and I think still doesn't see what's the problem with his panel. It's coming back up on the twelfth so will see if it's improved. Also major alterations to the control circuit.

and one to net Paul, you can use phase voltage for control circuit without an isolating TX, see method 3.

Well in that case your copy of BS EN 60204-1:2006+A1:2009 is different to mine.
There is no "method 3" anywhere in my copy.
I have just checked again with a fresh copy from BSI in case mine is corrupt, and nope not there.
I suggest that you refer to clause 9.1.1 in this standard for clarity of the requirement.

I have put an excerpt below, it would be illegal to provide too much of the standard.
Excerpt from BS EN 60204-1:2006+A1:2009.
>>>>>>>>>>>
9.1 Control circuits
9.1.1 Control circuit supply
Where control circuits are supplied from an a.c. source, control transformers shall be used for
supplying the control circuits. Such transformers shall have separate windings. Where
several transformers are used, it is recommended that the windings of those transformers be
connected in such a manner that the secondary voltages are in phase.
Where d.c. control circuits derived from an a.c. supply are connected to the protective
bonding circuit (see 8.2.1), they shall be supplied from a separate winding of the a.c. control
circuit transformer or by another control circuit transformer.
NOTE Switch-mode units fitted with transformers having separate windings in accordance with IEC 61558-2-17
meet this requirement.
Transformers are not mandatory for machines with a single motor starter and/or a maximum
of two control devices (for example interlock device, start/stop control station).
<<<<<<<

There is NO way this panel would comply with the last paragraph stating that "transformers are not mandatory"

Don't bother trying to argue, because I won't argue with you.
You can read the facts above.
You won't win by the way, even if you start an argument.

I am not liked on here, because I HAVE to keep up with current legislation and current practice, and, I have to provide evidence of such material breaches that you are seeing here, regularly, as it is part of my business, and I am not afraid of stating very directly when things are wrong.
IF things are just my opinion then I will state this, however, the fact here is that that panel requires a transformer, you cannot use a control supply direct from the mains and comply with "60204".
Have you asked the panel builder for his RA's & safety assessments for the control system?
Have you asked him for his DOI for the panel?

 

[Darkwood]

I think he's referring to 9.4.3.1 (method c) but this is in respect to protection against maloperation due to earth faults, voltage interuption and loss of circuit continuity.

Where it brings up method C it mentions where the control circuit is not fed from a control TX so i think this is where the panel builder is confused as he thinks its a non restricted option and not guided by the conditions in 9.1.1.

PS Netblind... I have no issues with you I know you know your stuff and respect your comment whether or not I may agree fully or not, BTW regarding the fusing of my DC supply did you take a look at the link?.. Would the DC side in your opinion need external fusing as I have omitted it? The supply will be cut on OL or SC and won't re-establish without both re-power and no fault/OL conditions.

@Monty .. regardless of the panel builders excuses the fact that he taken it away to bring it more in line with regulations must be screaming out to you his competence... I still can believe the exposed incoming tabs so close to the cab case without room to lug up..that just says it all regardless of any other issues.

Im still unsure of the machine set-up but can't really believe this machine is hazard free and doesn't require some kind of E-stop circuit?

 

[GMES]

The 1st thing i would be complaining about is all the cheap chint crap in there! sorry guys but it is the cheapest control gear on the market.
For me in an industrial enviroment where stuff gets a lot of work i would really want better quality parts in my panel.