Replacing fire alarm system- siting of MCPs in flats

[monkeyhanger]

If we follow the fire officers advice, we are replacing the existing system practically like-for-like points wise (except cabling will be hidden and zones will be wired in FP as well as sounders unlike the existing surface install. from 199*). Apparantly the council made inspections when HMO licencing came about, and they had no issues with the fire alarm system (s), although I believe this visit was probably to ensure the flats were self contained and a HMO licence wasn't required?

The building was converted to whatever building regulations applied at the time, I have copies of the plans and even builders invoices etc from 1985-1987ish. The fire alarm had been serviced previously by UK Fire (who are now initial?) and Peterlee fire company, with copies of inspections going back years. The existing system wasn't installed in the 80s but must have been installed whenever it was acceptable to wire zones in T&E and sounders in FP (does anyone know a year for this change?)

Apparantly when the regulatory reform fire safety order 2005 came about the local council weren't interested in visiting or commenting regarding this & pointed the landlord to cleveland fire brigade and their own fire risk assessments (which they then had done by a third party). I will update the forum when (or if!) we hear from BC.

 

[monkeyhanger]

Thanks Tazz, I will make sure there is something in writing from local BC before we replace the system. If we are arranging access and are going to be quite invasive the replacement system is going to have to be right according to all parties concerned!

In this instance do you think there is any need to contact whoever their buildings insurance is with? (-I assume it's insured). Or just ensure that the correct paperwork & maintenance is in place.

Thanks

 

[tazz]

Ok as the designer, installer and commissioner.....are you prepared to sign this installation off, on what you have surveyed, and information you have been given......so far you have asked questions on Part 6 and come back with references on part 1 which you have learnt on FIA courses...the be all and end all, will be if Hartlepool BC sign this off...not a local old timer fire officer

 

[monkeyhanger]

Yes, I am prepared to sign it off.

 

[monkeyhanger]

"so far you have asked questions on Part 6 and come back with references on part 1 which you have learnt on FIA courses"

If everybody knew definitively everything there wouldn't be a forum. Aside from 72 hours backup what other differences are there in installing the new grade A system to BS5839 & LACORS / fire officers guidance here.

"the be all and end all, will be if Hartlepool BC sign this off" if they don't just tell the landlord to consult their own fire risk assessment and/or cleveland fires, fire officer, as they apparantly did before. There are no changes being made to the building construction etc and the replacement fire alarm is just a near like for like replacement of the accepted existing system

"not a local old timer fire officer" what reason do you have to believe the fire officer doesn't know their job, or that they have given wrong advice?

**

Apologies if I've read this wrong, but you are coming across a bit arrogant!

"Well hope the system is not wire in T&E, as it needs to be fp rated" the EXISTING conventional system zone wiring did/does not need to be FP rated

"nor link the mains detection into the landlords system, as the two must run separatly" I did not suggest linking the grade D / grade A systems

"but unless you are using an addressable system this cannot be defined." I'm not sure why this would be the case if the zones were cabled that way to allow the communal hall/stairs/landings to be their own zone

"Again there is no requirement to reach 75db at the bed head, nor to fit sounders and heat detection in each flat." Admittedly I don't have a copy of regs to hand and I'm going by how the existing system is installed (does have sounders in bedrooms, heats in entrance to each flat to monitor rooms which open onto the escape route- landings etc as part of grade A system) the LACORS guidance I linked to earlier and the fire officer later also pointed me towards.

Is there a mistake here http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc...6Oc6LQpc0ONcTFxtER2UbcA&bvm=bv.73612305,d.d2s "Both BS 5839-1 and BS 5839-6 recommend that a minimum sound pressure level of 75 dB(A) at the bed head should be achieved. However, it should be understood that this will not necessarily be sufficient to wake people under the influence of alcohol or other drugs."

"And not having 4 families, trying to escape down one set of stairs, because old Mrs Brown in flat 2 burnt the toast" the flats are 1 bedroomed with single beds. Existing tenants are all single men, there has been a young (able bodied) couple once in the 5 years I have known the building. If a mrs brown did pay a visit and burnt some toast, it wouldn't set the heat detector in the entrance lobby of the flat off anway. Four blokes making their way down a staircase nearly 2m wide isn't an issue.

"If there is a fire within a flat, the grade D system will awake them, and a decision can then be made to raise the alarm or deal with the false alarm." Yes it will, however it wouldn't be a false alarm if there was a fire.

"Risk assessments have shown fire alarms are not required in multi storey dwellings, and the sit and wait proceedure is standard practice in the UK" The risk assessment for this building and previous visits off different relevant people in the last 20 years and LACORS guide have said otherwise.

"If this was a multi store block of flats, the risk assessment would require no common fire alarm, as this would course injuries escaping. A sit a wait policy would be used here." This is a multi story block of flats, and previous fire risk assessments, fire officer, and presently the LACORS guidance on existing buildings converted into flats before 1991 building regulations, 3 story, identified a need for a fire alarm system. A sit and die of smoke inhilation policy is not in place!

"The use of double lined 12mm plasterboard is required for ceilings" Not in this case as it is existing 1980s conversion with board with 3mm skim allowing the required 30min protection."

I await BCs response next week regarding the replacement fire alarm system.

 

[tazz]

We have tried to help, but you know all the answers...so get on with it, and stop asking questions.

 

[Poult12]

Monkey - a bit of advice from a person who did exactly what your doing now.

Ask the questions - take in the answers - dont argue with the answers provided by Tazz.

I tried the same thing you have done now - coming across like an arrogant &&&& that knows it all. Tazz knows EVERYTHING you're asking and provided more than adequate answers if not more than whats been asked.

Take it from me Tazz has alot more knowledge then you understand and i certainly wouldnt be doing what you've done ever again.

Again - Ask - Take In - Move on.

 

[High Tower]

Monkey - a bit of advice from a person who did exactly what your doing now.

Ask the questions - take in the answers - dont argue with the answers provided by Tazz.

I tried the same thing you have done now - coming across like an arrogant &&&& that knows it all. Tazz knows EVERYTHING you're asking and provided more than adequate answers if not more than whats been asked.

Take it from me Tazz has alot more knowledge then you understand and i certainly wouldnt be doing what you've done ever again.

Again - Ask - Take In - Move on.

Couldn't have said it better!

I consider myself as a damn competent fire alarm engineer as well as spark but Tazz blows me away !!

 

[tazz]

Shame as I like to help...but guidance notes and full BS/Document B regs are 2 different things...Guidance gives general overall advice such as the db level, where the regs cover all individual situations such as dwellings over 30 meters, HMO and private housing. I have a good rep with alot of BC guys/women....but with have a few run in`s with fire officers, giving out free battery alarms to commercial premises.

 

[monkeyhanger]

As I said, thanks, any help is appreciate-, I just get the impression you hadn't really read what I'd wrote. Still awaiting a response from council (though it has been bank holiday).

 

[monkeyhanger]

Oh didn't see this. Put the toys back in the pram!

"We have tried to help, but you know all the answers...so get on with it, and stop asking questions.
​

High Tower and Poult12 like this."

 

[Poult12]

Loving the none Bright Idea.... Obviously i understand it maybe a joke however dont think you realise the person you're mocking is probably 1 of the only people on this forum with the knowledge to sort over 90% of problems with regards to this sector.

 

[tazz]

Ok enough is enough....Tread Closed