Spur under bath allowed?

[Subby]

I am a plumber who has just come across this (sockets/spurs under bath) is this permitted?
There are 2 fused spurs and a digital shower unit under the bath. I am concerned as the bath seals have gone causing water to drip onto the fused spurs.
Has the electrics been fitted to regulation? If not then what should have been done?

 

[Des 56]

The location should be such that a tool is required to access the equipment,it would then be considered out of zones
If that is the case,repair the leak,perhaps provide some extra protection in case of future ingress

 

[Subby]

According to that logic then there is no problem as the electrics are all behind a bath panel. Just looked a bit dodgy tome thanks.

 

[Upton Sparks]

1.is it accessible, could you comfortable get to it to work on the Fused Spurs. ? 2. is the likelihood of a leak likely to happen ? 3. is it protected by an RCD?

for a start I don't like it it looks pony, it certainly wouldn't pass mustard in my house.
If you can't work on it then its not accessible, therefore it will not be complaint with the wiring regulation. every point needs to be accessible for purpose of inspection and repair.

Consideration has to be given to other service,ie Water service in close proximity to electrical service, so when ever installing an item ie Fused spur/ Socket, its require to take this in to consideration,
if there is any evidence of water leaking on to the fused spur, I would say this has fail the consideration to other service.
I personally think it fail any way and would have gone for an IP rated Fused spur if had to fit it under the bath. I would of also of built a wooden frame off the wall so it located under the bath and therefore even less likely to have water drip down the wall on to it

As its a bathroom as well it a special location and should be protected by an RCD.

Either way the customer should get themselves an Electrician out to check it over.
well done Plumber!

 

[Midwest]

Going by the concept, that any water pipe in a house could spring a leak, then all electrical faceplates would need to be suitably IP rated.

My electrical FCU's don't leak electricity, so plumbers (present company accepted) should make sure their baths or kitchen sinks don't leak water! Electrical services are always going to be in close proximity to other services, which includes plumbing & central heating systems.

Whilst the FCU's in this installation doesn't look ideal, there is always a possibility for FCU's/flex outlet plates having to be installed somewhere under a bath, i.e. digital showers or whirlpools baths etc.

 

[Subby]

That particular area beneath the seal between the bath and wall will tend to leak every few years as the seals rot / fail and will need re sealing. It is one of those jovs that need re doing from time to time. Just as taps start dropping over time and your light bulbs will need changing every so often .

 

[Midwest]

I put my bath in some ten years ago, mastic has remained intact, and no leaks between bath and wall. Just saying

Going back to my point, what about the luminaires in the floor below the bath, how do we protect them from leaking baths?

 

[Subby]

The luminaries are not directly below a place liable to leak water.
And fair play you must keep on top of the cleaning if the seals are still in tact.
Don't know what you are "just saying" but one of the most common jobs I get called to is re sealing bath/shower seals
But thanks for your answer although I wouldn't have electrics like that under my bath . And the point is you are sat in a bath full of water is a bit different from a burst pipe soaking a light fitting elsewhere in the house.

 

[Rpa07]

Cooking, cleaning - everything is @Midwest speciality. He's an all round fab guy and a cordon bleu chef to boot!

 

[Toneyz]

Did the occupier know that they were there if a fuse blew/needed to be isolated ? I see no reason if all conditions are met eg accessible risk of external influences however my preferred location would be outside the bathroom.

 

[Octopus]

My pet hate ... inaccessible points of isolation... I bet the 18th won't sort this out either!

 

[Midwest]

But thanks for your answer although I wouldn't have electrics like that under my bath . And the point is you are sat in a bath full of water is a bit different from a burst pipe soaking a light fitting elsewhere in the house.

So you have no electrical apparatus/apparel underneath your bath? I think most households do. I've got a down stairs toilet and hallway under mine, full of luminaires, sockets etc. In my experience, the first place a water leak finds, is the hole where a light fitting is, not that I've caused many water leaks!

 

[Midwest]

My pet hate ... inaccessible points of isolation... I bet the 18th won't sort this out either!

If you have a screwdriver, the worlds your oyster. Oysters are very difficult to open, apparently.

 

[Octopus]

If you have a screwdriver, the worlds your oyster. Oysters are very difficult to open, apparently.

maybe BUT why out a FCU in such a stupid place?

 

[Toneyz]

That's if it is known it is there bath panels are not sometimes the easiest to get off without damaging decoration where mastic in

 

[Toneyz]

My pet hate ... inaccessible points of isolation... I bet the 18th won't sort this out either!

no the book will get thicker with things that should be in a separate British Standard of it's own

 

[Risteard]

Oysters are very difficult to open, apparently.

I have a good oyster shucker which makes it dead easy.

 

[Subby]

My pet hate - bath panels that are stuck on with mastic/take adhesive etc . And no I do t have electrics under my bath. I have a room under my bathroom but no electrics under my bath . The electric refs seem a bit lax if that is the case. And before you continue doing your own plumbing, I'd get a professional in I know how rough you sparks are

 

[David M]

I don't get why anyone would put the FCU's behind the bath (I assume this is the case). If there is no other option but to put the FCU under the bath I would put it in an accessible place just behind the bath panel and in a position that is least likely to get water ingress in the event of a leak.

I do bathroom re-furbs, in my experience there are cowboys in both trades (plumbing & electrics) there are also some decent professional folk who actually take care and consideration.

 

[Midwest]

Granted an FCU behind a bath is not the most suitable location, for the reason Murdoch highlighted. However, it is possible that there may be circumstances that one would need to be located in such a place, or indeed a flex outlet plate may need to be located there to feed appliance, as previously mentioned.

It is for the designer of the installation, to make these judgements to comply with BS7671. Chapter 51 advices of guidance on, compatibility, external influences and accessibility. Reg 528.3 advices of guidance on proximity to non electrical services. I expect there are others.

My bath hasn't leaked and mastic failed (fingers now crossed ) in the years it has been installed, so if needed I would install an electrical wiring system underneath it, if that was the only option. I'm not quite sure how majority of controls for CH systems would be installed, if close proximity was not acceptable.

Just saying.

PS; I can give tips on applying bath sealant

 

[David M]

My bath hasn't leaked and mastic failed (fingers now crossed ) in the years it has been installed, so if needed I would install an electrical wiring system underneath it, if that was the only option. I'm not quite sure how majority of controls for CH systems would be installed, if close proximity was not acceptable.

Just saying.

PS; I can give tips on applying bath sealant

Sounds like you luckily have a well installed bath! The quality of the bath, i.e thickness and construction can make a difference along with the quality of the sealant. Also when we install baths we support all the edges with timber so that any movement between the bath and tile is eliminated.
Most cheap baths are crap construction and so thin they flex all over the place. They also come with 2 poxy angle brackets to fix and support them in place. You would spend a life time re-sealing these unless you fitted them properly to a supporting frame.

 

[Upton Sparks]

Going back to my point, what about the luminaires in the floor below the bath, how do we protect them from leaking baths?

NO, it just plan Logic isn't.

If you place a Fused spur under a sink or a bath you must give consideration to the proximity of the water service , its very unlike that a water pipe will spontaneously bust, (but possible) its more likely a plumber/ home owner will work on the pipe thinking he/she has isolated it..... and getting a surprise!, or the sink or bath seals leaking to the area below.

But we give these consideration because past experience has told us sh*t Happens sometimes.
In either of these case you could easily say an IP56 rated fused spur would be required. which is different to must be required.
Given the Photo I would of installed an IP rated box mount under the Bath accessible from the Front cover, without having to lub up an apprentice and throw him in there to do any final terminations we've missed before the plumber ruined my day by installing his bath.

To take it to the level and say well what about the light fitting if a pipe burst or leaks in a floor void is never going to be an electricians fault, that's just bad luck and not reasonably foreseeable, unlike a fused spur installed flush mounted on a wall with a bath above it and its only protection from a bath most likely to be wet when in use is some mastic....... that will leak at some point and is reasonably foreseeable in my option.

Its just Design chaps which = commonsense! ... no?

 

[Midwest]

So with that concept or idea;

'plumber/ home owner will work on the pipe thinking he/she has isolated it..... and getting a surprise!, or the sink or bath seals leaking to the area below.
But we give these consideration because past experience has told us sh*t Happens sometimes',

then sockets installed under kitchen sinks should be suitably IP rated, controls for CH systems (including pumps & valves) should be suitable IP rated, and even the good old immersion heater switch and element head, should suitably IP rated.

I've seen many a wet boiler system, with FCU and programmer installed adjacent, should these be suitably IP rated?

 

[Midwest]

Sounds like you luckily have a well installed bath! The quality of the bath, i.e thickness and construction can make a difference along with the quality of the sealant. Also when we install baths we support all the edges with timber so that any movement between the bath and tile is eliminated.
Most cheap baths are crap construction and so thin they flex all over the place. They also come with 2 poxy angle brackets to fix and support them in place. You would spend a life time re-sealing these unless you fitted them properly to a supporting frame.

Arrgh I see, I installed it in the correct way then, using timber battens.

Done something right for once

 

[Midwest]

PPS; as the home owner in this particular example, as well about worrying about the liquid dripping onto my FCU's, I would be keen to rectify the cascade ruining the rest of my property. As it has been suggested, there is a possible solution.

 

[Upton Sparks]

haha.. I see your Angle there!.. looking for extra revenue stream in applying Mastic ! ten year warranty as well, Nice touch ...

 

[Midwest]

haha.. I see your Angle there!.. looking for extra revenue stream in applying Mastic ! ten year warranty as well, Nice touch ...

Yep mines lasted ten years, least I don't install outdoor sockets etc, indoors

Nah Nah Ne Nah Nah

 

[Toneyz]

My pet hate - bath panels that are stuck on with mastic/take adhesive etc . And no I do t have electrics under my bath. I have a room under my bathroom but no electrics under my bath . The electric refs seem a bit lax if that is the case. And before you continue doing your own plumbing, I'd get a professional in I know how rough you sparks are

ok game set and match.

 

[Midwest]

ok game set and match.

I thought I was at 40 30!

 

[Midwest]

I put my bath in some ten years ago, mastic has remained intact, and no leaks between bath and wall. Just saying

Going back to my point, what about the luminaires in the floor below the bath, how do we protect them from leaking baths?

I have just had my post rated as 'dumb' 'disliked' by Amqcumbria, which is his/her prerogative. But when this member has no activity or postings, I do find it a bit bizarre. Perhaps you would like to post a comment Amqcumbria instead?

 

[MrLights]

Acceptable but, shouldn't really be done. Common sense innit?

 

[Midwest]

Acceptable but, shouldn't really be done. Common sense innit?

Definition of 'common sense'?

 

[uhoh]

Went to a job today and there was a salamander shower pump plugged into a single socket under the bath,running the bath ,the shower the basin the kitchen sink and comes on even if the bog being flushed ..trouble is it is intermittently not switching itself off when the water is not running .seems to be getting worse (I am surprised it lasted this long)..not an easy job to change the pump but thats another story.I may just run away from this one!
Question is ...is a socket allowed under a bath or not,it is behind a panel held on with silicone ..I read somewhere that if a tool is needed to remove the panel then its outside the zones so allowed but can some kindly soul show me where in the regs book it actually says this as I want to read it with my own eyes.

 

[Des 56]

701.32.3

 

[Richard Burns]

Went to a job today and there was a salamander shower pump plugged into a single socket under the bath,running the bath ,the shower the basin the kitchen sink and comes on even if the bog being flushed ..trouble is it is intermittently not switching itself off when the water is not running .seems to be getting worse (I am surprised it lasted this long)..not an easy job to change the pump but thats another story.I may just run away from this one!
Question is ...is a socket allowed under a bath or not,it is behind a panel held on with silicone ..I read somewhere that if a tool is needed to remove the panel then its outside the zones so allowed but can some kindly soul show me where in the regs book it actually says this as I want to read it with my own eyes.

701.32.3 if accessible only with use of a tool outside of zones.
However 701.512.3 states that 230V socket outlets are only permitted a distance of >=3m horizontally from the boundary of zone 1.
Therefore even if it is outside the zones a socket outlet is probably still not permitted as it is (possibly) within the bathroom and closer than 3m to the edge of zone 1.

 

[uhoh]

Thanks guys , I know that it is not quite right but feel that it is open to interpretation if one reg contradicts another, from a legal standpoint if somebody for whatever reason was to get injured as a result of this socket would the duty holder be able to hold the electrician responsible for the accident and also would the electrician have a defence in quoting the reg 701.32.3
I am still not sure whether it is allowed by the regs or not

 

[Richard Burns]

I would say that a socket under a bath where the area is only accessible by the use of a tool would not be allowed as sockets are not allowed within 3m of zone 1.
If there were a fused spur, switch or such like that is not a socket and the area under the bath is only accessible by the use of a tool then this would be allowed.
If the area under the bath is accessible without tools then the rules for zone 1 apply and only 25Vac or less SELV circuits and the specific items listed in 701.55 are permitted.

 

[Octopus]

I would say that a socket or spur concealed behind a bath panel which is ONLY accessible by use of tools is OK.......

That said such a position shouldn't use a socket or fused spur as its inaccessible... so that is more of an issue.

If you were doing an EICR you wouldn't know it there unless there is a big label to say where it is.

 

[uhoh]

I am just going to stop thinking about it .. thanks guys

 

[Deleted member 26818]

An FCU (switched or unswitchd) is allowed under a bath or shower, if that space is only accessible by use of a tool.
I would agree that a socket would not be allowed, as it is within 3m of the edge of zone 1.
However some at the IET disagree, in particular Richard Townsend who is a senior engineer in the Standards and Compliance department.

 

[Subby]

For the person with the shower pump switching on intermittently, check none of the outlets (taps etc) are dripping. And the shower pump should be sited in the airing cupboard at the Base of the cylinder. Check the pumpwise website if you are unsure on how to CORRECTLY fit a shower pump. 9/10 faulty shower pumps I attend have been fitted incorrectly.

 

[Upton Sparks]

Either way the customer should get themselves an Electrician out to check it over.
well done Plumber!

• 
  Informative x 2
• 
  Like x 1
• 
  Bad Spelling x 1
• List

Upton Sparks, May 15, 2017ReportBookmark
#4− QuoteReplyQuote in Conversatio



Well Thanks You, Billsays from Essex.... it only took you 5 months to notice the spelling. .....A bit slow at reading are we ?