SWITCHED DOUBLE SOCKET HELP?! - MUCH APPRECIATED

[Callum Thomas]

Hi Guys,

I am currently getting a kitchen overhaul and want to install some unit/kick-board lights. I want to be able to control the unit lights with the light-switch which controls the down-lights in the kitchen ceiling. I have swapped the switch out for a double switch.

The lights have came for the units but they require a plug socket. Currently i have created a double plug socket with a plastic external backbox which i have wired slightly different. I have attached a diagram of how this is currently wired up. The source of electricity (yellow spark in the diagram) is basically just an added spur from an existing socket. I have then decided to wire the live wire directly to the light-switch and a 'switched live' coming from the light switch going back to the 'L' part of the plug socket. Hopefully the diagram will better explain this.

My questions are, is this safe to do so, or is there an easier way to accomplish what i am trying to do? As i know you should never create a plug socket spur from a lighting circuit as they are rated differently. So am i creating any potential risk by adding the 2 circuits in a single back-box for the light-switch even though they don't actually come into contact with eachother as they will be wired to different individual switches on the same faceplate. Also, what is the situation with the earth cables for this setup? The backbox is a plastic dry-wall one so there is no earthing to be done for the back box. So would i combine the 2 earth cables into the same earth-lug on the metal faceplate of the lightswitch?

Any advice is much appreciated.

P.S i do not want to hear how i should be calling a qualified electrician in to do the job, i am simply just asking for advice and trying to educate myself in this sector. So those statements are irrelevant.

Thanks in advance!

 

[Amp David]

Spot on that, crack on.

I’d use a single socket though

 

[Pete999]

Hi Guys,

I am currently getting a kitchen overhaul and want to install some unit/kick-board lights. I want to be able to control the unit lights with the light-switch which controls the down-lights in the kitchen ceiling. I have swapped the switch out for a double switch.

The lights have came for the units but they require a plug socket. Currently i have created a double plug socket with a plastic external backbox which i have wired slightly different. I have attached a diagram of how this is currently wired up. The source of electricity (yellow spark in the diagram) is basically just an added spur from an existing socket. I have then decided to wire the live wire directly to the light-switch and a 'switched live' coming from the light switch going back to the 'L' part of the plug socket. Hopefully the diagram will better explain this.

My questions are, is this safe to do so, or is there an easier way to accomplish what i am trying to do? As i know you should never create a plug socket spur from a lighting circuit as they are rated differently. So am i creating any potential risk by adding the 2 circuits in a single back-box for the light-switch even though they don't actually come into contact with eachother as they will be wired to different individual switches on the same faceplate. Also, what is the situation with the earth cables for this setup? The backbox is a plastic dry-wall one so there is no earthing to be done for the back box. So would i combine the 2 earth cables into the same earth-lug on the metal faceplate of the lightswitch?

Any advice is much appreciated.

P.S i do not want to hear how i should be calling a qualified electrician in to do the job, i am simply just asking for advice and trying to educate myself in this sector. So those statements are irrelevant.

Thanks in advance!
View attachment 39972

Callum, I wont tell you to get an Electrician in, that idea is to put it bluntly, is a stupid idea, unsafe, dangerous.
I think what the instructions mean is, you can plug these lights into a 13 Amp socket, and not as you intended, to use the socket as a glorified junction box

 

[Callum Thomas]

Callum, I wont tell you to get an Electrician in, that idea is to put it bluntly, is a stupid idea, unsafe, dangerous.

Past two replies are very contradicting. Can you explain your reasoning why its unsafe and dangerous?

 

[buzzlightyear]

Past two replies are very contradicting. Can you explain your reasoning why its unsafe and dangerous?

 

[buzzlightyear]

can you strip a engine down and rebuild it?

 

[buzzlightyear]

P.S i do not want to hear how i should be calling a qualified electrician in to do the job, i am simply just asking for advice and trying to educate myself in this sector. So those statements are irrelevant

not on hear you will !

 

[buzzlightyear]

can you strip a engine down and rebuild it?

dumb you have put ,love it .

 

[Callum Thomas]

dumb you have put ,love it .

Why are you on this thread? You have offered no helpful advice and are just posting irrelevant posts. Will ask you kindly to leave unless you're going to offer any helpful information.

 

[123]

In theory this works, what kind of cable have you used?

 

[Pete999]

Past two replies are very contradicting. Can you explain your reasoning why its unsafe and dangerous?

I could be wrong, but I get the impression #2 is a sarcastic response to your query, if I am wrong then OP of #2 please accept my apologies.
To answer your question as to why I thinks it's a dangerous idea, you intend to supply the socket with a N and E and take the L to the switch, which undoubtedly already have a live present, so, hypothetically you could have a fault, or some work don on the lighting circuit, and the Electrician you would have engage to do the work on the lighting circuit, would of, I hope isolated the lighting circuit, only it wouldn't be dead as you would have, added another L to the switch position, yes he will have checked only to be faced with a DIY debacle.
So if you are intent on installing these lights, I would get a Kitchen fitter in to do the job cheaper than the Electrician you should have engaged to do the job in the first place.

 

[Callum Thomas]

Callum, I wont tell you to get an Electrician in, that idea is to put it bluntly, is a stupid idea, unsafe, dangerous.
I think what the instructions mean is, you can plug these lights into a 13 Amp socket, and not as you intended, to use the socket as a glorified junction box

I do not understand your response, the socket is wired correctly from a 30 Amp ring main, only difference is the live is going to a switch so that the live can be switched on and off. The socket would work fine if the live was wired directly to the 'L' port rather than the switch. SO what is the issue?

 

[Callum Thomas]

In theory this works, what kind of cable have you used?

That was my understanding of it also, but due to people's responses on this thread. I'm now not so sure. I have used Grey Twin & Earth 2.5mm cable to go from the existing socket and to the light switch

 

[Amp David]

There isnt one callum, i’d just crack on with it.

 

[streamer]

P.S i do not want to hear how i should be calling a qualified electrician in to do the job, i am simply just asking for advice and trying to educate myself in this sector. So those statements are irrelevant.

Those statements, in this situation, are the most relevant you will hear.

 

[Amp David]

Tbh callum, its a better job than some who i know would do. I’ve some drill a hole through worktop and plug the lights into a socket and use that as there switching

 

[buzzlightyear]

Why are you on this thread? You have offered no helpful advice and are just posting irrelevant posts. Will ask you kindly to leave unless you're going to offer any helpful information.

check you insurance policy before you burn you house down. when you employ a spark he has got a 2 million l/b insurance have you....

 

[Callum Thomas]

I could be wrong, but I get the impression #2 is a sarcastic response to your query, if I am wrong then OP of #2 please accept my apologies.
To answer your question as to why I thinks it's a dangerous idea, you intend to supply the socket with a N and E and take the L to the switch, which undoubtedly already have a live present, so, hypothetically you could have a fault, or some work don on the lighting circuit, and the Electrician you would have engage to do the work on the lighting circuit, would of, I hope isolated the lighting circuit, only it wouldn't be dead as you would have, added another L to the switch position, yes he will have checked only to be faced with a DIY debacle.
So if you are intent on installing these lights, I would get a Kitchen fitter in to do the job cheaper than the Electrician you should have engaged to do the job in the first place.

I understand your logic completely, however, my consumer unit is an old-style one which does not allow seperate circuits to be switched off individually. I have attached a photo below, Therefore the entire electrics in the home will need to be switched off before any work is undertaken. Preventing your scenario.

 

[123]

Have you fused this down to 3 or 5A? Also what type of cable have you used, and how have you installed it?

 

[Pete999]

In theory this works, what kind of cable have you used?

Don't encourage him 123, it could be detrimental to his well being, seriously.

I do not understand your response, the socket is wired correctly from a 30 Amp ring main, only difference is the live is going to a switch so that the live can be switched on and off. The socket would work fine if the live was wired directly to the 'L' port rather than the switch. SO what is the issue?

I have given you my reasons, if you won't or can't accept them, I am not going to take any further part of this thread, it's not my policy to walk DIYers through a comprehensive install, which could cause injury to you or your family.

 

[Callum Thomas]

Tbh callum, its a better job than some who i know would do. I’ve some drill a hole through worktop and plug the lights into a socket and use that as there switching

Not quite what i'm trying to accomplish though is it. I know this is a possibility which can be done. Just trying to work out the best way to go about it. If you have any logical idea on how would be best to accomplish what i'm trying to do then please step in with your advice. As currently i'm hearing a lot of 'dont do its' but no alternatives being offered.

 

[Amp David]

You just pull a fuse for each circuit so yes they can.

Posting that pic callum has just opened you up to a load of grief now though pal

 

[buzzlightyear]

get some with a wood pole handy !

 

[PEG]

Callum,you cannot ask for advice,and then qualify what you would not want to hear,as irrelevant.

That is worse than risky. It is bad manners.

 

[Amp David]

Have you fused this down to 3 or 5A? Also what type of cable have you used, and how have you installed it?

Why the worry for fusing down?

Hes used 2.5 as as spur, no ones going to be using this new socket for anything as it must be hidden under the units

 

[charlie76]

I wouldn’t recommend this at all. You are mixing 2 circuits I.e. your lighting circuit and your socket circuit in 1 switch. It is unlikely but not impossible where you could have a fault whereby your lighting circuit ends up protected by a 32A MCB which would not protect a 1.5mm cable. It is just bad practice and as someone else said could be a mine field for someone else fault finding in the future. There will be much better ways of doing this.

 

[Callum Thomas]

I wouldn’t recommend this at all. You are mixing 2 circuits I.e. your lighting circuit and your socket circuit in 1 switch. It is unlikely but not impossible where you could have a fault whereby your lighting circuit ends up protected by a 32A MCB which would not protect a 1.5mm cable. It is just bad practice and as someone else said could be a mine field for someone else fault finding in the future. There will be much better ways of doing this.

Completely understand what your saying, however, what could be an alternative to accomplish this?

 

[buzzlightyear]

I wouldn’t recommend this at all. You are mixing 2 circuits I.e. your lighting circuit and your socket circuit in 1 switch. It is unlikely but not impossible where you could have a fault whereby your lighting circuit ends up protected by a 32A MCB which would not protect a 1.5mm cable. It is just bad practice and as someone else said could be a mine field for someone else fault finding in the future. There will be much better ways of doing

the op is not listening.

 

[Callum Thomas]

no ones going to be using this new socket for anything as it must be hidden under the units

Correct

 

[Grant webber]

Completely understand what your saying, however, what could be an alternative to accomplish this?

Simple hire the services of a professional

 

[ipf]

I do not understand your response, the socket is wired correctly from a 30 Amp ring main, only difference is the live is going to a switch so that the live can be switched on and off. The socket would work fine if the live was wired directly to the 'L' port rather than the switch. SO what is the issue?

You're drawing shows no sign of any ring circuit cables. Is it spurred? .... it's not a field you should be 'educating yourself' in. Various regulations apply.

 

[PEG]

I wouldn’t recommend this at all. You are mixing 2 circuits I.e. your lighting circuit and your socket circuit in 1 switch. It is unlikely but not impossible where you could have a fault whereby your lighting circuit ends up protected by a 32A MCB which would not protect a 1.5mm cable. It is just bad practice and as someone else said could be a mine field for someone else fault finding in the future. There will be much better ways of doing this.

...Or a straightened out paper-clip? You would need to pull & view,to know...

 

[streamer]

@Callum Thomas
My suspicion is that you have asked an electrician to do this job and they have told you that to alter the wiring in your kitchen would require changing the old fuse box. Therefore you are trying to do it yourself. Am I correct? There are good reasons why most electricians wouldn't do the job without bringing it up to current standards.

 

[Callum Thomas]

Is it spurred? ....

Yes

 

[Callum Thomas]

@Callum Thomas
My suspicion is that you have asked an electrician to do this job and they have told you that to alter the wiring in your kitchen would require changing the old fuse box. Therefore you are trying to do it yourself. Am I correct? There are good reasons why most electricians wouldn't do the job without bringing it up to current standards.

No, 2 electricians have looked at this job, confirmed it to be possible and haven't even asked to look at the consumer unit. Can't see why the old style fuse box would prevent this from being done, other than the fact it doesn't meet current standards.

 

[ipf]

I wouldn’t recommend this at all. You are mixing 2 circuits I.e. your lighting circuit and your socket circuit in 1 switch. It is unlikely but not impossible where you could have a fault whereby your lighting circuit ends up protected by a 32A MCB which would not protect a 1.5mm cable.
.....30 amp 3036

 

[charlie76]

No, 2 electricians have looked at this job, confirmed it to be possible and haven't even asked to look at the consumer unit. Can't see why the old style fuse box would prevent this from being done, other than the fact it doesn't meet current standards.

What 2 electricians have confirmed it to be possible in the way you showed in your schematic?

 

[PEG]

Honestly? two sparks viewed this job,and did not even look at the CU?

 

[Spoon]

Hi OP. You are breaking a few regs. No I'm not going to explain them.
Yes, get an electrician in. What you are planning is incorrect.
Yes, you won't like my reply, but I'm an engineer and I'm just direct in my nature. I can't be a polite as others on here.. I will tell you as it is, without mollycoddling you.

 

[ipf]

No, 2 electricians have looked at this job, confirmed it to be possible and haven't even asked to look at the consumer unit. Can't see why the old style fuse box would prevent this from being done, other than the fact it doesn't meet current standards.[/QUOTE]
That says it all!!![/QUOTE]

 

[Callum Thomas]

What 2 electricians have confirmed it to be possible in the way you showed in your schematic?

They obviously had their on ways of doing this in mind. However, they didn't share that information with me. Leading me to create my own idea. If you can suggest a way of how YOU would do this job, feel free to share this information

 

[buzzlightyear]

god help the person who gives the op how do it .
like dragons den .I'm out .

 

[Spoon]

They obviously had their on ways of doing this in mind. However, they didn't share that information with me. Leading me to create my own idea. If you can suggest a way of how YOU would do this job, feel free to share this information

I would get an electrician in, as I don't have the test equipment to test the circuit afterwards. They will also be able to get all the parts needed cheaper than me.

 

[westward10]

Lock the thread.

 

[Toneyz]

Is the cable being install surface?

 

[buzzlightyear]

post #42

 

[Toneyz]

god help the person who gives the op how do it .
like dragons den .I'm out .

You were told to leave the post in #9.

 

[Strima]

Get a WiFi socket switch and use that. No dicking around with cables and no safety risk to yourself or your family. A lot cheaper in the long run.

 

[westward10]

From what I can see the existing consumer unit does not have additional rcd protection although it could be out of shot. He is also proposing switching a two gang socket from a 6/10A light switch. If both these are correct then no one can condone these methods. The OP has probably decided this is the way forward so the thread should be locked.

 

[Spoon]

You were told to leave the post in #9.

I'm sure the OP will tell me to leave as well, when he reads my comments...
I'm staying until one of the MODS do the sensible thing and close the thread. The OP doesn't want to listed.
I do like @Strima idea in post #48... Nice and safe.