Using other cable as bonding

[cadspark]

Hi guys,

Having read the bgb i'm still not sure on this one. I'd like to run a length of 10mm black conduit cable for bonding to water as most of the run will be visible on exposed beams in old house. Any thoughts on if this would be acceptable as long as I sleeve the terminating points at either end with green/yellow. I've done this when running swa and using third core as an earth but not sure if its allowed when the conductor is not double insulated.

 

[Darkwood]

reg 541.6.1 gives you the occasions you are allowed to omit the colour or markings of a conductors and dosnt show the method you want to use, i would in your case run a small black conduit with the discreat saddle style or trunking where it passes across the exposed beams.

 

[Chr!s]

reg 541.6.1 gives you the occasions you are allowed to omit the colour or markings of a conductors and dosnt show the method you want to use, i would in your case run a small black conduit with the discreat saddle style or trunking where it passes across the exposed beams.

Id read that Reg again, (Omission of identification by colour or marking).

 

[Des 56]

The regulations tell us that green/yellow singles shall only be used as a protective conductor
With regard to the question,there doesn't appear to be anything saying its not permitted

There is a reg that says when green/yellow id is used, it shall not be numbered except for circuit identification
That says to me its ok to do as proposed

 

[Chr!s]

I see no issues

Regards Chris

 

[Richard Burns]

I think this is acceptable, but not recommended. So long as the terminations are appropriately coloured then it does meet the requirements. (514.3.2)
However I think the use of a thin black conduit or pipe would look neater as you could use fewer supports.

 

[Darkwood]

Id read that Reg again, (Omission of identification by colour or marking).

yes my error should say 514.6.1 but i still think using visible phase colour throughout its length is bad practice in the least, there are alternative methods as ive noted above to hide the obvious clashing colours against the wood beam and the only times ive seen this is if its part of a multicore swa and a core has been utilised as an additional earth to the armoured which can be easily identified without confusion.

 

[Darkwood]

Also 514.4.4 (other conductors shall be identified by colour in accordance with table 51)...... i agree its a little ambiguous how the regs cover this issue but general common sense would note its bad practice in the least, you will effectively have a single core cable identified as a phase colour for the majority of it run now there isnt anything to say it cant be painted over on the beam to blend as it still keeps its identity throughout the length of its run.

 

[Chr!s]

Also 514.4.4 (other conductors shall be identified by colour in accordance with table 51)...... i agree its a little ambiguous how the regs cover this issue but general common sense would note its bad practice in the least, you will effectively have a single core cable identified as a phase colour for the majority of it run now there isnt anything to say it cant be painted over on the beam to blend as it still keeps its identity throughout the length of its run.

Not so sure id deem it as bad practice, there's nowt in the Regs not allowing this method, whether its green/yellow or black 10mm if someone whos not competent decides to remove or damage the cable then what can you do?

 

[Darkwood]

Il agree from a functional/electrical point of view it still does the job, but on this particular point think il agree to disagree as its a practice i wouldnt do myself and would personally class it as bad practice especially when there are alternatives to conceiling the cable over the beam if not just by painting it, this way it retains its obvious identification throughout its length, who knows what may happen future wise say a floorboard ripped up and this cable has been damaged or broken, its initial colour would identify it straight away but if it was marked as a phase colour it may be tested as dead and redundant without realising its actually a protective conductor.
The regs cant accommodate for every possible situation that joe blogs electrical may encounter and when this arises it comes down to common sense and applied educated guess-work and if i was asked if a 10mm black singles could be used as a earth conductor i would say its not something you catch me doing, cadsparks situation is easily rectified with conduit or trunking etc so dosn't warrent the need to have it wired in black and ive yet to see a situation where it is justified.

 

[Chr!s]

Il agree from a functional/electrical point of view it still does the job, but on this particular point think il agree to disagree as its a practice i wouldnt do myself and would personally class it as bad practice especially when there are alternatives to conceiling the cable over the beam if not just by painting it, this way it retains its obvious identification throughout its length, who knows what may happen future wise say a floorboard ripped up and this cable has been damaged or broken, its initial colour would identify it straight away but if it was marked as a phase colour it may be tested as dead and redundant without realising its actually a protective conductor.

i know what your saying, though id expect anyone who's competent not to have any issues, its marked at the terminations, its black single PVC 10mm, no other single PVC cable could be installed that way without additional mechanical protection, and to prove dead you couldn't just test at the point of damage and assume dead.

Regards Chris

 

[Darkwood]

Although we 2 are having this debate here, id be interested in what other well established members think on this issue, dont get me wrong i see your point and argument but in this particular case dont see the argument for using it against putting in normal G/Y 10mm .
Regards Darkwood.

 

[Chr!s]

I think Cadspark is the only one who can explain why best practice can not be used in this instance, im not saying it would be my choice, just that the regs allow this method, and bad practice sounds a little harsh to me certainly without seeing the installation.

Regards Chris

 

[Knobhead]

I can see the argument from both sides. But I’ve got to come down on the aesthetics side of the argument. If an electrician finds a single core and alarm bells aren’t ringing with him then he’s sorely lacking in common sense.

There’s a lot to be said for the old M&Q method where earth bonding would be 7/.064 (16mm) (minimum) unsheathed hard drawn. Even painted it was blatantly obvious what it was.

 

[telectrix]

it's not so long ago that black was only used for NEUTRAL. even today with it now being a phase conductor, any electrician with a brain would treat it with respect. obviously, being a single conductor unenclosed would say " this is an earth/bonding conductor." i nagree therefore with doing it, provided the terminations are sleeved green/yellow.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

There is nothing prohibiting the use of any colour conductor as a protective conductor.
There are prohibitions against the use of a conductor coloured green and yellow being used for any purpose other than as a protective conductor.
Whichever colour is used, the conductor at the terminations must be identified, using colour.

 

[Silly Sausage]

darkwood - 1, everyone else - 10+ :29:

 

[Darkwood]

Ok il bow down gracefully on this one with the obvious 10mm equip' bonding, although where would you stop say 4mm supplementary bonding even if correctly marked at both ends wont on all occassions come from the D/B or MET and not knowing its destination or where it originates from can gives a confusion to it purpose even for a experienced electrician had it been G/Y throughout its length then its purpose at least is identifiable.

Just a little add on about the Green/Yellow and why it must never be used as any other conductor... earth used to be green only but due to about 5-10% of electricians having some form of colour blindness it was in cases hard for them to distinguish red or green hence we now have a 2 colour earth this is also the reason why 514.4.5 exists -The single colour green shall not be used.
514.4.2 that G/Y is never used for any other purpose.

Just in case you didnt realise why some regulations seem at first overkill like in 514.4.5

 

[Darkwood]

darkwood - 1, everyone else - 10+ :29:

Lol ok yes point made :svengo: but wont change my ways, i was taught the good old fashion way 4yrs in college 25 yrs ago no fast track few years we not only learnt the regs but why they existed, but before you pull me on it, ive kept up to date as i did it on 15th edition omg feeling old now :/

 

[Silly Sausage]

Got to be if added id colour/sleeving goes missing/not fitted, virtually everyone would assume a G/Y cable would be a non live conductor. Assumption being the mother of all ffff ups!

 

[DurhamSparky]

Earth = G/Y

install it as it comes off the drum and let the home owner paint it!! that way no breaking the regs and no trying to explain your self in court...!!! i did read that the earth/bonding conductor has to be sleeved accordingly through out its length entirely not just at connections!!!

 

[cadspark]

Thanks for all your constructive debate on this issue. I shall discuss the issues with the householder. I must admit I am more inclined to install normal green/yellow.

 

[telectrix]

:bulb2: why not compromise. install black cable and clip with green/yellow clips. :lipsrsealed2:

 

[Darkwood]

Earth = G/Y

install it as it comes off the drum and let the home owner paint it!! that way no breaking the regs and no trying to explain your self in court...!!! i did read that the earth/bonding conductor has to be sleeved accordingly through out its length entirely not just at connections!!!

Woo hoo cheers DurhamSparky.... i was getting strategically out manouvered in this debate but now im back in the room :20:needed some backup.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Earth = G/Y

install it as it comes off the drum and let the home owner paint it!! that way no breaking the regs and no trying to explain your self in court...!!! i did read that the earth/bonding conductor has to be sleeved accordingly through out its length entirely not just at connections!!!

Where did you read that, and how does that sit with the NICEIC's opinion that black should be used as earth and grey as neutral when using 3 core cable, in order to de-neutralise the black?

 

[telectrix]

why don't we just do as the froggies do, use any colour we want. and if anybody disagrees, block the roads, ports and airports with tractors.