What is the current 17th edition regs for 12v SELV Humidisat extractor fans in Zone 1

[sintec]

As I understand it, they should have their own dedicated RCD

After asking Mr Google I found this reference fro 17th Edition 2010

Low Voltage Airflow Fans – Be Extra Safe

The Airflow range of SELV (Safety Extra Low Voltage) fans fully comply with the current IEE wiring regulations 17th edition detailing special requirements for bathrooms. These well proven fans use a 12 volt electrical supply(which means that the siting of the extractor fans is possible within the permitted splash zones of those using washing facilities).
Note also that it is now possible to install a 230 volt, IPX5 rated fan with a dedicated RCD in splash zones. Consult the IEE 17th edition wiring regulations for full details.
​

Source: http://www.sparksdirect.co.uk/blog/...at-do-the-regulations-say-whats-the-best-fan/

Can someone please shed more light on the current regs please

The extractor fan is in Zone 1 and is 1-2mm above the shower screen & approx 1ft from the shower-head & have not been sealed, with gaps around the edges of the fan

ATM the landlord has connected the fan to the same RCD as the lights & Smoke Alarm

Is this correct installation or not ??

When I questioned the landlords electrical inspector his excuse was not feasible or reasonable IMHO as he said "It is to stop tenants turning off the fans"

I have a socket tester, which I bought from B&Q with audible tones & it indicates that there is a missing / faulty earth, however the landlords electrical supervisor says the electrics are safe.

That said there is a history of faults made by the landlords electricians that stem back to 2011, when there was no less that 18 faults with a newly installed CU, which shares the same cupboard as a gas meter with approx a 1.5ft incoming gas mains pipe, which was deemed safe by a supervisor, including a MICC PYRO cable was drilled into by the electrician that installed the CU & blew the mains & they had to get Western Power Distribution out to install a new MICC Pyro cable.

Yet they fail to understand, why I do not feel safe in the home I rent from them

 

[Darkwood]

Re: What is the current 17th edition regs for 12v SELV Humidisat extractor fans in Zo

Its impossible to say through a website what is deemed safe and what isn't without really doing a full inspection, your interpretation of safe may be misguided through fear but if you can post some pictures of what concerns you we can give direct response, is the fan in the bathroom 230v or 12v as it is now.

Most fans require fusing down to 3amp as per installation instructions and you should have a local isolation for the fan be it a fan switch or spur maybe in a cupboard or external above the bathroom door as are common places to find them.

 

[Des 56]

Re: What is the current 17th edition regs for 12v SELV Humidisat extractor fans in Zo

As I understand it, they should have their own dedicated RCD No

After asking Mr Google I found this reference fro 17th Edition 2010 mr

Low Voltage Airflow Fans – Be Extra Safe

The Airflow range of SELV (Safety Extra Low Voltage) fans fully comply with the current IEE wiring regulations 17th edition detailing special requirements for bathrooms. These well proven fans use a 12 volt electrical supply(which means that the siting of the extractor fans is possible within the permitted splash zones of those using washing facilities).
Note also that it is now possible to install a 230 volt, IPX5 rated fan with a dedicated RCD in splash zones. Consult the IEE 17th edition wiring regulations for full details.
​

Source: http://www.sparksdirect.co.uk/blog/...at-do-the-regulations-say-whats-the-best-fan/

Can someone please shed more light on the current regs please

The extractor fan is in Zone 1 and is 1-2mm above the shower screen & approx 1ft from the shower-head & have not been sealed, with gaps around the edges of the fan IP rating of the fan itself may determine its suitability

ATM the landlord has connected the fan to the same RCD as the lights & Smoke Alarm That can be common practice
Is this correct installation or not ?? From your description of it being a selv fan it seems fine,where is the transformer /isolator etc

When I questioned the landlords electrical inspector his excuse was not feasible or reasonable IMHO as he said "It is to stop tenants turning off the fans"
A fan with humidistat is best left in the "on" mode to enable it to do the job it is designed for
Does it not have local isolation for you to switch the fan if you so desire?

I have a socket tester, which I bought from B&Q with audible tones & it indicates that there is a missing / faulty earth, however the landlords electrical supervisor says the electrics are safe.
There are correct instruments available that are designed to answer this question
A B+Q socket tester would not be an instrument to determine safety

That said there is a history of faults made by the landlords electricians that stem back to 2011, when there was no less that 18 faults with a newly installed CU,that sounds like a calamity,who determined these were present? which shares the same cupboard as a gas meter with approx a 1.5ft incoming gas mains pipe, which was deemed safe by a supervisor,Services need segregation but the being in the same cupboard does not necessarilly constitute a deviation from regulations on its own,there are proximity considerations including a MICC PYRO cable was drilled into by the electrician that installed the CU & blew the mains & they had to get Wales & West Utilities out to install a new MICC Pyro cable. I can't really comment,accidents can happen to the best of us, or it could even be a clown holding the drill

Yet they fail to understand, why I do not feel safe in the home I rent from them

A good landlord would go out of his way to allay fear ,however the fear needs to be determined reasonable or not

Who are them ?
Tai Calon,Wales and West,private landlord ?

 

[sintec]

Re: What is the current 17th edition regs for 12v SELV Humidisat extractor fans in Zo

Hi guys

A big thank you for your replies :smile5:

Here is a couple of pictures to show the position of the fan, which I am on the understanding that it is zone 1, bearing in mind that it is not sealed to the wall with approximately a 5-7mm gap around the edge of the fan & the wall & the bottom edge of the fan is approx 1950mm from the floor & the spurred fuse switch, to the SEVL unit which has a neon light that is not lit when in use & has a missing screw.



To the left of the SELV unit, there are three copper pipes 1 x 15mm the trunking with LIVE cables running & the two closest to the SELV unit is approx 22mm & are soaking wet on the outside (looks like possible condensation)


I would rather not say who the housing are atm, in case of possible court action (any names mentioned are not the Housing association in question of bad practices)

It is a Housing Association that is registered with the NICEIC which covers Torfaen & (NO they are NOT Melin) & they use Wales West & Housing out of hours call center, which failed to get the electrics made safe after a flood from an upstairs flat on the 17th March & whilst on the phone to them the light cover in the bathroom gave way under the weight of the water & literally hit me on the head, yet the original in-hour leccy that attended even admitted to the call center that he did nothing whilst on site as he deemed it safe as no water was running through the electrics at the time he was here, his senior management said they will not reprimand him, I had a supervisor out on the 18th, that also failed to get a leccy out to make the electrics safe.

I called them up my self as by force of habit I turned the bathroom light on & within seconds it started to crackle & did not trip the RCD, the attending 2 leccy's found water in the bathroom light fitting & water in the CU, & yet the 1st attending leccy will still not be reprimanded

 

[Darkwood]

Re: What is the current 17th edition regs for 12v SELV Humidisat extractor fans in Zo

Just reflecting on the pics alone it would seem it is suited for the zone its in and with it been a selv unit for a bathroom environment I would assume the fan is ok mounted as is, check the manufacturers guidelines for mounting but electrically the fan is safe where it is.

 

[sintec]

Re: What is the current 17th edition regs for 12v SELV Humidisat extractor fans in Zo

Just reflecting on the pics alone it would seem it is suited for the zone its in and with it been a selv unit for a bathroom environment I would assume the fan is ok mounted as is, check the manufacturers guidelines for mounting but electrically the fan is safe where it is.

I am waiting for the Housing to supply me with the literature, as it should of been left when they fitted it.

The fan has a digital clock on the side of, it so when it gets turned off / on it shows how many days it has been running.

I am 99.9999999999999% positive that the Vent Axia fan should be sealed to the wall with silicon or other suitable sealant & not have a gap of between 5-7mm

After removing the removable cover for access to clean the fan, I noticed there is no model numer or any identifying markings to cross reference.

Brings me to another question

If we, the tenants are supposed to clean the dust etc from the fan as per the housings advice, same as we have to clean the smoke alarms, why do the install then so they can not be turned off by the RCD without turning off the lights & smoke alarm.

Reason I ask is the RCD is in adequate reach & the Spurred switch is above the CU which people my height needs steps to reach & where it is placed there is no way one could place steps safely in there due to a Gas meter on the floor & a redundant incoming gas mains pipe.



This Pic was taken in 2011, when the problems 1st started & a supervisor never noticed in line of sight, wires that were hanging over the Prepayment meter & said the electrics were safe (is this safe) & I have had a recent letter to say that the reason that the supervisor is still working for them, is because the electrician didn't tell hem he messed up.

I thought a supervisor's role is to make sure the the employees under him, are dioing their jobs safe etc (I could be wrong though)

If anyone wants to know what that black mark is, to the right of the CU

It was caused by a qualified NICEIC electrician that was employed by my Housing to install a new CU during a refurbishment program in 2011, the electrician drilled into the MICC PYRO cable blew approx 4-5 100 amp fuses & couldn't work out why, a few days later the moisture had slowly seeped into the hole in the MICC PYRO cable & it went BANG, resulting in Western Power Distribution calling out & bringing in a new MICC PYRO cable.

It took months to get the housing to renew the new CU & affected RCD's

 

[Darkwood]

Re: What is the current 17th edition regs for 12v SELV Humidisat extractor fans in Zo

Sounds like the said company employ some reet muppets...well those that have previously had been working in your house, to be fair though if their is no indication of the burried pyro been there then this was just one of those things that happens even to the seasoned sparks, if there were obvious clues to a pyro been burried in the area to be drilled then they are muppets for causing this but as the photos pile up there are areas where things could be neater and the odd missing cable restraints like the tails feeding the CU - these should be secured so any movement isn't reflected on the terminations which can lead to fires in the worse case if they become loose.

PS ..Ill pinch your blown pyro pic if you dont mind for another thread we have running on work disasters and trade pics...

 

[sintec]

Re: What is the current 17th edition regs for 12v SELV Humidisat extractor fans in Zo

Sounds like the said company employ some reet muppets...well those that have previously had been working in your house, to be fair though if their is no indication of the burried pyro been there then this was just one of those things that happens even to the seasoned sparks, if there were obvious clues to a pyro been burried in the area to be drilled then they are muppets for causing this but as the photos pile up there are areas where things could be neater and the odd missing cable restraints like the tails feeding the CU - these should be secured so any movement isn't reflected on the terminations which can lead to fires in the worse case if they become loose.

PS ..Ill pinch your blown pyro pic if you dont mind for another thread we have running on work disasters and trade pics...

There was & still is, clear signs where the now redundendt PYRO cable is running, even I could tell that prior to them doing the refurb, thus no accident & it was pure negligence.

Feel free to use the blown pyro pic, for the thread in question & or for educational purposes :smile5:

 

[sintec]

Re: What is the current 17th edition regs for 12v SELV Humidisat extractor fans in Zo

A good landlord would go out of his way to allay fear ,however the fear needs to be determined reasonable or not

Who are them ?
Tai Calon,Wales and West,private landlord ?

IP rating of the fan itself may determine its suitability

How do I determine the IP rating ??

ATM the landlord has connected the fan to the same RCD as the lights & Smoke Alarm That can be common practice
Is this correct installation or not ?? From your description of it being a selv fan it seems fine,where is the transformer /isolator etc

The spurred switch is located above the CU & out of reasonable reach

When I questioned the landlords electrical inspector his excuse was not feasible or reasonable IMHO as he said "It is to stop tenants turning off the fans"
A fan with humidistat is best left in the "on" mode to enable it to do the job it is designed for
Does it not have local isolation for you to switch the fan if you so desire?

The isolation is out of reach & the RCD is in reach, thus the need to turn off by the RCD for cleaning etc, however it also turns off the lights & smoke alarm


I have a socket tester, which I bought from B&Q with audible tones & it indicates that there is a missing / faulty earth, however the landlords electrical supervisor says the electrics are safe.
There are correct instruments available that are designed to answer this question
A B+Q socket tester would not be an instrument to determine safety

However the socket tester it is clearly made for such a purpose "This simple and smart device can check the wiring status of any 13A plug sockets using both an easy to follow three LED code system and audible buzzer indication. The portable socket tester comes with clear usage instructions on the front of the casing so it can be used without any hassle."

That said there is a history of faults made by the landlords electricians that stem back to 2011, when there was no less that 18 faults with a newly installed CU,that sounds like a calamity,who determined these were present? which shares the same cupboard as a gas meter with approx a 1.5ft incoming gas mains pipe, which was deemed safe by a supervisor,Services need segregation but the being in the same cupboard does not necessarilly constitute a deviation from regulations on its own,there are proximity considerations What would you classify this ?? <strong>[video]https://www.dropbox.com/s/t9y9tsx41xcjaio/MOV00332.mp4?dl=0[/video] including a MICC PYRO cable was drilled into by the electrician that installed the CU & blew the mains & they had to get Western Power Distribution out to install a new MICC Pyro cable. I can't really comment,accidents can happen to the best of us, or it could even be a clown holding the drill

I can assure you that it was a clown that was holding the drill, as part of the MICC PYRO cable was already exposed & it could bee see which way the cable was running, & he couldn't work out what he had done to keep blowing several 100 amp cartridge fuses

 

[Des 56]

Re: What is the current 17th edition regs for 12v SELV Humidisat extractor fans in Zo

I have a socket tester, which I bought from B&Q with audible tones & it indicates that there is a missing / faulty earth, however the landlords electrical supervisor says the electrics are safe.
There are correct instruments available that are designed to answer this question
A B+Q socket tester would not be an instrument to determine safety

However the socket tester it is clearly made for such a purpose "This simple and smart device can check the wiring status of any 13A plug sockets using both an easy to follow three LED code system and audible buzzer indication. The portable socket tester comes with clear usage instructions on the front of the casing so it can be used without any hassle."


Just read your reply and I shall "again" refer you to the above statement I made above in red

The consumer unit looks a rats nest of a job,the tails are too short and likely strained on the connections and the meter is obstructed,there are cables hanging loose so I now suspect we are most likely talking real Clown interest in a meaningful way

 

[sintec]

Re: What is the current 17th edition regs for 12v SELV Humidisat extractor fans in Zo

I have a socket tester, which I bought from B&Q with audible tones & it indicates that there is a missing / faulty earth, however the landlords electrical supervisor says the electrics are safe.
There are correct instruments available that are designed to answer this question
A B+Q socket tester would not be an instrument to determine safety

However the socket tester it is clearly made for such a purpose "This simple and smart device can check the wiring status of any 13A plug sockets using both an easy to follow three LED code system and audible buzzer indication. The portable socket tester comes with clear usage instructions on the front of the casing so it can be used without any hassle."


Just read your reply and I shall "again" refer you to the above statement I made above in red

The consumer unit looks a rats nest of a job,the tails are too short and likely strained on the connections and the meter is obstructed,there are cables hanging loose so I now suspect we are most likely talking real Clown interest in a meaningful way

I take it that a missing / faulty earth is not a safety concern..... ?? or am I missing your point entirely ??

I managed to track down a model number & name as a neighbor has the same fan installed & his has the stickers left on the inside of the removable cover.

Vent Axia Response decentralised (MEV) 404875A & the sticker on the main body 429355

I have been on Vent Axia downloads & can not find the model number(s) listed

I have located .PDF Brochure with similar product / model numbers http://www.vent-axia.com/files/catdownloads/Lo-Carbon Response Brochure - 1st Edition - Web2.pdf but not the correct one & they are IPX4 Rated, which is not definitive for the model that is installed

If anyone has the user / installation manuals, I would be very grateful if they would like to share them :smile5:

 

[Tiny Spark]

Re: What is the current 17th edition regs for 12v SELV Humidisat extractor fans in Zo

From what you say and looking at the pics there is some very shoddy workmanship there.
If you are really concerned can you not get a "independant" sparky to come by and do a inspection for you?
That will give you a certificate which you can show to your association or whoever.

 

[sintec]

Re: What is the current 17th edition regs for 12v SELV Humidisat extractor fans in Zo

From what you say and looking at the pics there is some very shoddy workmanship there.
If you are really concerned can you not get a "independant" sparky to come by and do a inspection for you?
That will give you a certificate which you can show to your association or whoever.

TBH on a very low income & recovering from lot of debt, I am unable to afford a second opinion at present

Then there is finding one that is not just a cowboy as the ones that has already been here.

If someone could give me a quote or recommendation, I could then see about raising the funds

 

[Des 56]

Re: What is the current 17th edition regs for 12v SELV Humidisat extractor fans in Zo

I take it that a missing / faulty earth is not a safety concern..... ?? or am I missing your point entirely ??




Unfortunately it seems you are missing the point

The safety of an installation can be determined by a thorough visual inspection,followed by testing of the installation which will determine if the protection afforded is within parameters,eg the circuit breakers will disconnect and in sufficient time so that you don't get deaded,that the protective bonding is adequate and any Rcds function correctly etc

You need more specialised instruments to carry out these tests,your functional tool box socket tester will give indication that you have a problem.
That problem could be at the socket,it could be the circuit itself or even the supply earthing,that tester will not test the installation in the way required (even if you could possibly stretch your imagination to that extent)

You need the correct tools and the knowledge to make a judgement on the safety aspect of the installation
Even a rats nest of a consumer unit does not necessarily detract from its safety

 

[sintec]

Re: What is the current 17th edition regs for 12v SELV Humidisat extractor fans in Zo

I take it that a missing / faulty earth is not a safety concern..... ?? or am I missing your point entirely ??




Unfortunately it seems you are missing the point

The safety of an installation can be determined by a thorough visual inspection,followed by testing of the installation which will determine if the protection afforded is within parameters,eg the circuit breakers will disconnect and in sufficient time so that you don't get deaded,that the protective bonding is adequate and any Rcds function correctly etc

You need more specialised instruments to carry out these tests,your functional tool box socket tester will give indication that you have a problem.
That problem could be at the socket,it could be the circuit itself or even the supply earthing,that tester will not test the installation in the way required (even if you could possibly stretch your imagination to that extent)

You need the correct tools and the knowledge to make a judgement on the safety aspect of the installation
Even a rats nest of a consumer unit does not necessarily detract from its safety

I think I am starting to see where your coming from

& definately think I need to raise some funds to get a second opinion

Just need recommendation(s) & or some quotes

 

[Des 56]

Re: What is the current 17th edition regs for 12v SELV Humidisat extractor fans in Zo

Where are you ?

Whoever you engage.make sure the individual is competent
A firm being Niceic or other scheme member means jack squat. because the person actually doing the work may only be as clued up as yourself
These schemes rely on a qualifying supervisor system where 1 may be qualified but the other 99 may have just finished stacking Tesco's shelves,so be careful who it is that actually tests your installation

A decent spark would be more than happy to show qualifications,there is a specific testing qualification City + Guilds 2391 which usually instills a lot of confidence to people in this trade that the spark knows his onions

 

[sintec]

Re: What is the current 17th edition regs for 12v SELV Humidisat extractor fans in Zo

Where are you ?

Whoever you engage.make sure the individual is competent
A firm being Niceic or other scheme member means jack squat. because the person actually doing the work may only be as clued up as yourself
These schemes rely on a qualifying supervisor system where 1 may be qualified but the other 99 may have just finished stacking Tesco's shelves,so be careful who it is that actually tests your installation

A decent spark would be more than happy to show qualifications,there is a specific testing qualification City + Guilds 2391 which usually instills a lot of confidence to people in this trade that the spark knows his onions

How can anyone tell a fake/ falsified qualification from a genuine qualification ??

What other signs are there to look out for

 

[sintec]

Re: What is the current 17th edition regs for 12v SELV Humidisat extractor fans in Zo

Update:

I had Wales & West to survey the redundant Gas Mains pipe & advised that I can remove it myself at floor level, & NOT USE any power related tools & ONLY a hacksaw & bung some putty or similar into the hole. (What putty should I get / use)

Was he correct in advising me that now it is redundant I can remove it myself ??

Pic of redundant Gas Mains pipe



He also mentioned that the MICC PYRO cable may be too close to the in-use gas mains & he would have to check the regulations to verify.

Pics of gas mains close to the MICC PYRO cable



What are the current regulations for installing the MICC PYRO cable near a gas meter / mains ??

Have the regulations changed since approx May 2011, when the MICC PYRO cable was installed ??

 

[Darkwood]

Re: What is the current 17th edition regs for 12v SELV Humidisat extractor fans in Zo

We cannot advice on gas mains redundant or not, hop over to the plumbers forum for advice on that.

 

[sintec]

Re: What is the current 17th edition regs for 12v SELV Humidisat extractor fans in Zo

We cannot advice on gas mains redundant or not, hop over to the plumbers forum for advice on that.

Cheers darkwood, will do :smile5:

What about the regs for installing the MICC PYRO cable close to the gas meter ??