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S

scuba

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hi all

I need to extend a light cable and extend a socket cable and also bury them in walls (plaster over) how do i do this properly?

thanks
 
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J

Jumbonipondon_squilobidon

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  • #2
Isolate the circuit before commencing work.;)
 
W

wonkey donkey

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  • #3
Contact an electrician. The yellow pages is an amazing source of competent electrical contractors
 
C

Cirrus

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  • #4
Would ya like my business number? Cheap to members like you - £55 per hour (what my tattooist charges me)
 
W

wayne

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  • #5
oh what abunch of japesters!
if your extending an existing cable doesnt the joint have to be accessible ,i cant remember the exclusions
as you are altering two circuits this cant go on a single minor works cert (reading from the book)
 
S

Shakey

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  • #6
oh what abunch of japesters!
if your extending an existing cable doesnt the joint have to be accessible ,i cant remember the exclusions
as you are altering two circuits this cant go on a single minor works cert (reading from the book)
yes the joint has to be accessible for inspection and maintenenace, ( a screw compression joint) except a joint made by soldering or crimping
 
R

rumrunner

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  • #7
hi all

I need to extend a light cable and extend a socket cable and also bury them in walls (plaster over) how do i do this properly?

thanks
Hi
THe way to do it properly is to replace the cable ,NOT, put a joint in it ,the only thing joints are any good for is smoking;)
have fun
 
G

Grae79

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  • #8
a sound cable joint is the only alternative in some situations imho...domestic customers don't take too kindly to their shiny plastering being destroyed to replace a cable back to nearest accessory.

i quite often use crimps....as long as they're fitted correctly and the double sheathing's replaced with heat shrink or the like, then i don't see the problem. never had a problem with a crimped joint and the test results are always a-ok.
 
S

Shakey

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  • #9
Hi
THe way to do it properly is to replace the cable ,NOT, put a joint in it ,the only thing joints are any good for is smoking;)
have fun
here we go again Rum, a joint is a perfectly acceptable method and is expressly permitted in the regs

done two industrial supplies the other week.

one was a submain to a portacabin, one was a supply to some BS4343 outlets for industrial mixers

for both i run flat tw&E 6242Y inside the industrial unit, then changed to SWA for when it went outside in the yard

So how would you suggest I join the flat TW&E to the SWA? without using a joint?:p
 
R

rumrunner

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  • #10
here we go again Rum, a joint is a perfectly acceptable method and is expressly permitted in the regs

done two industrial supplies the other week.

one was a submain to a portacabin, one was a supply to some BS4343 outlets for industrial mixers

for both i run flat tw&E 6242Y inside the industrial unit, then changed to SWA for when it went outside in the yard

So how would you suggest I join the flat TW&E to the SWA? without using a joint?:p
Good morning shakey

If you bothered to read the origional question the guy asked ,he was on about burying a joint in the wall ,not using an adaptable box in an entirelly different situation

i dont think its good practice to plaster over a joint.and its not accesable,which i belive it should be ,if a domestic customer does not wish the decor spoiled ,then if you have any pride in your work ,tell him to get someone else to do it.:)
 
S

Shakey

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  • #11
Good morning shakey

If you bothered to read the origional question the guy asked ,he was on about burying a joint in the wall ,not using an adaptable box in an entirelly different situation

i dont think its good practice to plaster over a joint.and its not accesable,which i belive it should be ,if a domestic customer does not wish the decor spoiled ,then if you have any pride in your work ,tell him to get someone else to do it.:)
and good morning to you Rum

perhaps you should try reading the post as well

we were discussing making a joint by soldering or crimping, which CAN be buried in the wall, and does NOT have to be accessible for inspection and maintenance

why isnt it 'good practice'? why tell the customet to get someone else to do it?

I was amplifying the point that in some situtations joints are neccessary. i teach people to have a mental 'toolbox' so that they can adapt regs acceptable solutions to snags and problems they encounter

but of course you have to know the regs to be able to do that

i know you are a bit short on regs quals Rum old friend, i got a spare place on a 17th edition course i am running next week, ......fancy pitching up:rolleyes::p
 
R

rumrunner

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  • #12
and good morning to you Rum

perhaps you should try reading the post as well

we were discussing making a joint by soldering or crimping, which CAN be buried in the wall, and does NOT have to be accessible for inspection and maintenance

why isnt it 'good practice'? why tell the customet to get someone else to do it?

I was amplifying the point that in some situtations joints are neccessary. i teach people to have a mental 'toolbox' so that they can adapt regs acceptable solutions to snags and problems they encounter

but of course you have to know the regs to be able to do that

i know you are a bit short on regs quals Rum old friend, i got a spare place on a 17th edition course i am running next week, ......fancy pitching up:rolleyes::p
Yes i did read the post and i was also refering to putting a crimp in the wall ,and yes i am a bit rusty on the regs ,and quite honestly im appalled by the fact the IEE allow such a shoddy practice ,and also that the ECA inspectors condone it ,the NiCIEC i can understand,(there only interested in your subscription),in my opinion the practice of plastering over crimps is not "good practice" weather or not its allowed ,and anyone who did it if they worked for me ,would be asked to change it ,replacing the cable satifys the regs as well ,and i think offers a better job for the customers money ,and also helps you get some pleasure from knowing you have done a good job.not a lash up.:mad:

and also ,some crimp manuracturers ,used to print on the packet that the crimps shouldnt be used with solid cable,
and as for the 17th course ,im thinking about doing it ,but not untill next winter,so ill just have to stick to the old ways for now.
 
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S

Shakey

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  • #13
Rum do you have 2391? Do you do periodics at all?

You see, when i teach people installations and 2391 I teach them quite specifically to differentiate between 'deviations from good practice' and 'deviations from wiring regs'

I wonder, if you were inspecting, and you saw/suspected that there was crimped or soldered coneections in a wall - what code would you give it

Now i always teach people - if you are prepared to give something a code, you must also be able to back it up with the regulation number that has been contravened

putting crimped connections into walls is not the ideal solution, but it is a solution which is acceptable
 
R

rumrunner

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  • #14
Rum do you have 2391? Do you do periodics at all?

You see, when i teach people installations and 2391 I teach them quite specifically to differentiate between 'deviations from good practice' and 'deviations from wiring regs'

I wonder, if you were inspecting, and you saw/suspected that there was crimped or soldered coneections in a wall - what code would you give it

Now i always teach people - if you are prepared to give something a code, you must also be able to back it up with the regulation number that has been contravened

putting crimped connections into walls is not the ideal solution, but it is a solution which is acceptable
as i said in my origional answer .i am appalled that this is now considered acceptable practice,
and i can think of a few companys where i have previously worked where it would be frowned upon ,if possably enough to lose you your job!

i supose in that case at a tribunul they would rule ,that its not bad practice,because it doesnt contravine any regs,so a case for unfair dismissal would be proved against the company, but,in that situation i cant see haw an inspector giving evedence could say it was good practice?

obviously the days when Electricians can call themselves craftsmen are over.
 
S

Shakey

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  • #15
as i said in my origional answer .i am appalled that this is now considered acceptable practice,
and i can think of a few companys where i have previously worked where it would be frowned upon ,if possably enough to lose you your job!

i supose in that case at a tribunul they would rule ,that its not bad practice,because it doesnt contravine any regs,so a case for unfair dismissal would be proved against the company, but,in that situation i cant see haw an inspector giving evedence could say it was good practice?

obviously the days when Electricians can call themselves craftsmen are over.
I am sorry Rum, but i absolutely disagree

surely the measure of a good craftsman is his knowledge of the limitations of his trade?

I would expect any craftsman worth his salt to know that:

A. A crimped or soldered hoint is acceptable in the regs (and I am pretty sure always has been - nothing to do with 16th or 17th edition)

B. It is not 'best practice' and you should never 'plan' to do it.

However, lets say you need to repair a damged cable or need to extend a cable, the entire upstairs is laminate flooring, the customer expressly does not want his laminate ripping up, or his newly decorated walls chased, and he asks "is there no other way to do it", well the answer has to be yes, and I would EXPECT a craftsman to know that;)
 
R

rumrunner

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  • #16
I am sorry Rum, but i absolutely disagree

surely the measure of a good craftsman is his knowledge of the limitations of his trade?

I would expect any craftsman worth his salt to know that:

A. A crimped or soldered hoint is acceptable in the regs (and I am pretty sure always has been - nothing to do with 16th or 17th edition)

B. It is not 'best practice' and you should never 'plan' to do it.

However, lets say you need to repair a damged cable or need to extend a cable, the entire upstairs is laminate flooring, the customer expressly does not want his laminate ripping up, or his newly decorated walls chased, and he asks "is there no other way to do it", well the answer has to be yes, and I would EXPECT a craftsman to know that;)
Ah well .considering ,plastering over a crimp joint in a wall ,has to be the most sloppy .rough practice any electrician could consider doing .i pity any one who takes your advise and does it,and when they get pulled up they can say they read it on a forum that its ok.
its such a shame .that a man with your advanced electrical knowledge can condone such a thing ,and worse teach others to do it!:mad:
 
S

Shakey

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  • #17
Jesus Rum, are you not hearing me?

i'm not discussing this anymore 'cos i am wasting my time
 

jeremy

-
Mentor
Arms
if the junction is going to be buried in plaster, I would crimp the conductors, wrap them individually in insulating tape then wrap the whole lot in amalgamating tape (waterproof). cover them in plaster and off you go. Do Ins Res tests before you plaster!!

sorry chaps ; hadn't read the previous replies to the question!!If the joint is crimped and then insulated and then wrapped in something like or behaves in the same way as a solidifier , what is going to deteriorate the crimped joint??
 
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A

adamh

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  • #19
i agree works perfectly well for jointing swa ive never left a manhole above 1 lol
 
R

rumrunner

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  • #20
if the junction is going to be buried in plaster, I would crimp the conductors, wrap them individually in insulating tape then wrap the whole lot in amalgamating tape (waterproof). cover them in plaster and off you go. Do Ins Res tests before you plaster!!

sorry chaps ; hadn't read the previous replies to the question!!If the joint is crimped and then insulated and then wrapped in something like or behaves in the same way as a solidifier , what is going to deteriorate the crimped joint??
I agree ,nothing "can go wrong with it" ,nothing at all ,when i was at college i was told never to do it,as its bad practice,that was a while ago and standards have slipped ,i suppose it all stems from soldered joints ,in damp walls,things have changed with better insullation ,so maybee its more acceptable now,but i would still NEVER do it

The guy who started the thread asked the proper way to extend the circuit ,putting a crimp in the wall is NOT the proper way ,even if its the norm,as i pointed out earlier this practice would be frowned upon by some contractors ,especially any who offer quality work ,i would urge anyone to think twice before they do it!,
also best to check with your boss as well.

I worked for a guy once who insisted all the scews in the socket and switch tops were in line horizontally,he always checked every job anyone did for him ,and one guy kept on not bothering ,he was the one who went first when work got slack,he also sacked a guy for not putting a label on a bonding clamp!
so think on ,saying Shakey says its ok ,might not be your best line of defence:p

i agree works perfectly well for jointing swa ive never left a manhole above 1 lol
agreed ,different type of situation tho,and stranded cable , it used to say on the crimps,not to be used on solid cable ,but ive not seen this for a while ,
 
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C

Cirrus

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  • #21
Rum old fella, we live in a highly compeitive working world where time IS money regardless of whether we like it or not. We cannot simply go pulling new circuits in just to avoid crimping and plastering over. I have to do it regularly and although I think it is sometimes not ideal - it is the only option. Sparks HAVE to be quick (and safe) in todays working environment so I suggest you embrace the change my friend cos times are changing.
 
R

rumrunner

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  • #22
Rum old fella, we live in a highly compeitive working world where time IS money regardless of whether we like it or not. We cannot simply go pulling new circuits in just to avoid crimping and plastering over. I have to do it regularly and although I think it is sometimes not ideal - it is the only option. Sparks HAVE to be quick (and safe) in todays working environment so I suggest you embrace the change my friend cos times are changing.
Total rubbish ,your brainwashed,take your time ,do the job to your Best abillity and set your standards high,that way you will earn yourself a good reputation in the trade,there are plenty of employers out there who dont care how long a job takes ,as long as its right,and there are plenty of electricians all wanting to be the quickest,it always makes me laugh when i see them ,rushing about ,no t break,thinking theve got a good job.
chill out a bit ,relax into your work ,perfect it ,then think about going about earning the real money;)
 
C

Cirrus

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  • #23
If I chilled, took my time and had tea / lunch breaks then I would not get my work done. I would also only earn £11.79 an hour whereas if I rush and work quickly (but accurately) I earn double that. Bit of a no brainer really is it.:rolleyes:
 
R

rumrunner

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  • #24
If I chilled, took my time and had tea / lunch breaks then I would not get my work done. I would also only earn £11.79 an hour whereas if I rush and work quickly (but accurately) I earn double that. Bit of a no brainer really is it.:rolleyes:
Bit of a hare and tortoise situation :)
 
C

Cirrus

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  • #25
Yup, but sadly, being a tortoise doesn't pay the extortionate mortgage I have and the nice cars and the holidays etc etc etc. Modern day living I'm afraid.
 
R

rumrunner

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  • #26
Yup, but sadly, being a tortoise doesn't pay the extortionate mortgage I have and the nice cars and the holidays etc etc etc. Modern day living I'm afraid.
Your strategy seems to be working for you ,mine works for me;) have fun and for ****s sake chill out .you will end up with a heart attack,ive had one so im ok now:)
 
C

Cirrus

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  • #27
I find the cider helps chill me Rum;);)
 
W

wayne

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  • #28
cant recall anyone giving the correct reg number to this question;
try526.1 to 526.5 17th edition
rum ,may we have another atvbitwww:D
 
R

rumrunner

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  • #29
hi wayne ,you could always post it up ,for those who havent got the book ,i dont need to know it personly ,i would never do it under any circumstances ,and i would ask anyone who did to change it ,so it dont matter whatever it says in the book really.
atvbitwww
 
S

Shakey

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  • #30
Rum, you aboslutely shock me

you come on here pontificating about about how wonderful your standards are, criticize my teaching and ethics, simply becuase you appear to have difficulty in interpretating plain english, when all the time you are working as a sparks when you are not even qualified to the 16th edition, never mind the 17th edition

And heres the news flash - you DO need to know it. If you dont know the current rules then ergo you cant know:

A. When you are complying with them
B. When you are contravening them

Now i could go into a long tirade about the difference between acceptable practice and best practice, but quite frankly Rum, i dont think you would listen

Additionally, try reading my posts - when i did i ever mention plastering over crimped connections?

Yes, i discussed crimped connections buried in walls, but theres more than way to skin a cat

plastering over them after sealing them would be a solution.
Crimping them inside a sunken architrave box, then putting a blanking plate over that would be a better solution

crimping them and then sliding some oval conduit over the joint, and sealing it before plastering would also be better than just plastering over

and relacing the entire cable would be an even better solution.

However, Rum, theres the ideal world, where we use the best solution, and the real world that people like me and Ciruus inhabit, where sometimes we have to adapt a solution to the environment

Now if i told my students 'the only way is to replace the entire cable' that would be a lie

whereas if i said 'the BEST way is to replace the entire cable, however these are other soltions that are available to you' then that would be a true statement

And I reiterate my point Rum, if you do periodics, and pick something up you have to number it between 1 and 4 and back it up with a regs number that has been contravened

and in this case, YOU would not be able to

and finally Rum




:)
 

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