AMD 3 - Hopefully busting the myth of metal DBs

[D Skelton]

Good work Damian, this amendment really is a load of BS....!

At a slightly different angle, what if a plastic CU that is deemed combustible is installed after 2016 upon the proviso it will be being housed in a fire rated/non combustible enclosure. Do we need to have the enclosure installed first... Bit of the old chicken and egg going on. Are we expected to be buying steel shells to house them.

Thank you.

To answer your question, if a plastic board is classed as combustible then it won't have passed the 960°C glow - wire test in accordance with BS EN 60695-2-10&11 as is required by BS EN 61439-3, therefore it won't meet the requirements of the product standard and should not be sold on the European market.

By definition, any plastic board that truly meets the current requirements of BS EN 61439-3 will be non-combustible.

 

[baldsparkies]

Remember those stories of the 1st world war.
When the powers to be sat around a table smoking fat cigars and deciding on their strategy for the next attack.
Then they send thousands of lads, over the trenches to be mowed down by german machine guns.

Keep yer heads down lads, cus they sure don't give a ---- about the implications to us.

 

[NDG Elecs]

Sorry Damian, I skim read parts of this thread. But get exactly your point re 61439 DBs. This will rumble and rumble I feel!

 

[D Skelton]

Remember those stories of the 1st world war.
When the powers to be sat around a table smoking fat cigars and deciding on their strategy for the next attack.
Then they send thousands of lads, over the trenches to be mowed down by german machine guns.

Keep yer heads down lads, cus they sure don't give a ---- about the implications to us.

Very true, however in this scenario there is no implication to us. We can carry on fitting plastic boards as long as we want. BS 7671, in particular Regulation 421.1.201 only goes to bolster this point by referring us back to the product standard that defines non-combustible in the first place lol!

We've all been caught, hook, line and sinker by nothing but a red herring.

To those of you reading this who don't have a clue what we're all on about;

THERE IS NO REQUIREMENT AFTER 1ST JANUARY 2016 TO ONLY FIT METAL BOARDS IN DWELLINGS

 

[baldsparkies]

Thank you.

To answer your question, if a plastic board is classed as combustible then it won't have passed the 960°C glow - wire test in accordance with BS EN 60695-2-10&11 as is required by BS EN 61439-3, therefore it won't meet the requirements of the product standard and should not be sold on the European market.

By definition, any plastic board that truly meets the current requirements of BS EN 61439-3 will be non-combustible.

But they do play with words Skelt, as said the board I referred to is deemed Self-extinguishing.
Where does that stand with reference to Self-extinguishing vs Non-combustible.
Is there any official clarification on any difference or does it mean the same thing.
Or are they just going to sit back and leave the man on the tools to take the responsibility, and decision. ????

 

[NDG Elecs]

Maybe a product recall is in order. That could be a profitable little number.. In my dreams that is!

 

[D Skelton]

But they do play with words Skelt, as said the board I referred to is deemed Self-extinguishing.
Where does that stand with reference to Self-extinguishing vs Non-combustible.
Is there any official clarification on any difference or does it mean the same thing.
Or are they just going to sit back and leave the man on the tools to take the responsibility, and decision. ????

If something self extinguishes, by definition it cannot ignite. Ignition is the state of undergoing combustion. If it cannot ignite, then it is not combustible.

The company that produces the board can call it what they like. They can say that it is "rated at fifteen bananas on the Keanu Reeves scale", and so long as it passes the 960° glow-wire test, then it cannot be combustible.

 

[Jonspark]

If something self extinguishes, by definition it cannot ignite. Ignition is the state of undergoing combustion. If it cannot ignite, then it is not combustible.

The company that produces the board can call it what they like. They can say that it is "rated at fifteen bananas on the Keanu Reeves scale", and so long as it passes the 960° glow-wire test, then it cannot be combustible.

Don't you just love semantics

 

[baldsparkies]

So,
Quote 1,
Consumer units and similar switchgear assemblies will have to comply with the BS EN 61439-3 standard.
And most of them already do !!
Quote 2,
An example of non-combustible material is steel.
But they DON'T mention plastic in that statement,even though its capable of being non combustible, and therefore starting the mythology !!

:icon12:

 

[Jay Sparks]

Excellent post Mr Skelton. I am glad someone (you) has been ar3ed enough to actually look at the regs regarding this farse!!!

This is one of the best post in a LONG time on this forum. I have copied your post and gave a copy to a few of my colleagues.

The BS7671 makes reference to conforming to the "manufacturers instructions" for any accesssory/equipment, therefore if the manufacturers state that their board conforms to BS 61439-3, then it is perfectly acceptable.


Jay

 

[baldsparkies]

Excellent post Mr Skelton. I am glad someone (you) has been ar3ed enough to actually look at the regs regarding this farse!!!

This is one of the best post in a LONG time on this forum. I have copied your post and gave a copy to a few of my colleagues.

The BS7671 makes reference to conforming to the "manufacturers instructions" for any accesssory/equipment, therefore if the manufacturers state that their board conforms to BS 61439-3, then it is perfectly acceptable.


Jay

What that man said,
Nice one Mr Skelts. :icon12:

 

[Anthony S]

Phone up the manufacturer and ask the question and see what answer you get ?

 

[Jay Sparks]

Phone up the manufacturer and ask the question and see what answer you get ?

I can't believe the big manufacturers haven't come out already and said summet!!
But then again, they will be rubbing their hands thinking about the extra dollars they will make when the ill informed and unskilled start buying there nice new, shiny, expensive metal ones.lol

Jay

 

[Anthony S]

I can't believe the big manufacturers haven't come out already and said summet!!
But then again, they will be rubbing their hands thinking about the extra dollars they will make when the ill informed and unskilled start buying there nice new, shiny, expensive metal ones.lol

Jay

I phoned one mate and asked the question are the consumer units I've already fitted prior to your new release models that comply with amd 3 non - combustible and they won't get into a conversation and won't answer the question. So to me if a manufacturer can not answer a simple question, then what can you say.

 

[netblindpaul]

So,
Quote 1,
Consumer units and similar switchgear assemblies will have to comply with the BS EN 61439-3 standard.
And most of them already do !!

No they don't most of them comply with BS EN 60439-3.
They don't have to comply with BS EN 61439-3 until 22 March 2015, as until then BS EN 60439-3 is still valid.
The manufacturers (well most) will wait until the last second, as it is cheaper.

 

[HappyHippyDad]

Thanks for this post Mr DS, it's very interesting.

I'd like to have a read of BS EN 61439-3 myself but trawling through the internet it seems to cost about £150!!

Would anyone know how we can view this BS number?.. as otherwise it's a bit of a catch 22.. i.e you must adhere to this standard... but you cant read it!

 

[Silly Sausage]

If something self extinguishes, by definition it cannot ignite. Ignition is the state of undergoing combustion. If it cannot ignite, then it is not combustible.

The company that produces the board can call it what they like. They can say that it is "rated at fifteen bananas on the Keanu Reeves scale", and so long as it passes the 960° glow-wire test, then it cannot be combustible.

I've posted this before ...
I've no idea how much sway that BEAMA have in all this, but I'll just bring it your attention again...

Clearing the fog around the new Consumer Unit Regulation - BEAMA | News

Quote from below the picture of the geezer,
“A further point for clarification is that plastic enclosures manufactured from 960 degree glow-wire rated material would not be classified as ‘non-combustible’ in the context of this regulation.

 

[GB.Kayak]

If something self extinguishes, by definition it cannot ignite. Ignition is the state of undergoing combustion. If it cannot ignite, then it is not combustible.

The company that produces the board can call it what they like. They can say that it is "rated at fifteen bananas on the Keanu Reeves scale", and so long as it passes the 960° glow-wire test, then it cannot be combustible.

D,


A consumer unit can undergo ignition and be certified compliant with BS EN 61439-3 by satisfying BS EN 60695-2-12, 10.1 Test criteria, sub clauses a), b) and c). Sub clause a) states: 'the longest sustained flames or glowing of the test specimin after the removal of the glow-wire, tR, extinguish within 30s'. It may therefore ignite and burn, 'combust', for up to 30 s! Some consumer units made of plastic materials may, however, be truly 'incombustible'. Unfortunately the wholesaler and installer of such boards are unlikely to be informed by the manufacturer whether their plastic board only passed the test regime by relying on these sub-clauses or not. The certification allows either product response under test. This would appear to be why BS 7671 has imposed a higher standard of 'incombustible' for domestic installation.


I have not carried out this testing but I suspect that from first principles, most plastics are derived from hydrocarbons and this class of chemicals are fuels; they burn when heat and oxygen are in abundance! Modify the environment by removing the heat, removing the glow-wire, or cutting off the oxygen and mostly combustion stops. However, if that heat input is continuous then the consumer unit is highly unlikely to self-extinguish!

 

[baldsparkies]

For a long long time boards from Denmans Basec range have complied with BSEN 61439-3

Product code is QFS-RRM14FLEXI

And they are referred to as Self Extinguishing ABS
IP2XC.

Its the Main Switch that is BSEN 60947-3 rated on these boards, not the enclosure.

 

[rompling]

A pandering to a fire brigade request not thought through ( surprising ) with a loopy long time scale to make it compliant as others have said loose connections / poor work man ship / ****e mcb connections prob more to blame than what they are enclosed in
But after all we are the blokes/ ladies that install and work with then day after day - what do we know ..,,,