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Discuss The new Landlords' EICR requirements. The law says that everything must now be to 18th Edition! in the Periodic Inspection Reporting & Certification area at ElectriciansForums.net

westward10

westward10

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Yes, I get your point, unfortunately I can see that lawyers and courts might interpret it in quite a different way, 'you were asked to provide a landlord's report in accordance with the legislation as a competent electrician'.

Whilst I agree that what should be done is an inspection in line with periodic inspections as defined in the current edition of the wiring regs (in Scotland, that's what is required under the equivalent legislation) the plain fact is that the English legislation has defined the requirements differently, basically demanding compliance with the current regs.

This opens it up for lawyers to argue for compliance as basically that's what the law states.

I wouldn't want to be the one defending the 'custom and practice', or 'that's what they really meant' against a fancy lawyer, as they may have a better lawyer than I can afford!
What the legislation demands is irrelevant to the individual carrying out the test and inspection. This legislation is aimed at the landlord it is therefore up to them what extent of remedial works is required from the submitted EICR.
 
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snowhead

snowhead

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Mentor
If the Legislation could in any way be interpreted to compell LandLords to update all thier properties the the 18th before April 2021, then there would have been more Landlords marching on Parliament than there have been BLM and others recently.
 
J

Julie.

Esteemed
Arms
Whilst I don't disagree with a sensible approach, the fact is the Legislation is worded poorly, and is open to interpretation that it means compliant.

Landlords I have no doubt believe that by requesting a report on the safety of the electrical system in accordance with the legislation by a professional and then acting upon it would be a valid defence - and it should be.

We only need an incident similar to Grenfell and the courts will be looking at the following "facts":
The Legislation says compliant.
The landlord received a report from a professional stating no work was required (or there was and it was done).
The professional decided that although it was not compliant "it was OK".
The subsequent fire caused a major incident, 10 innocent lives lost and horrific scenes played across the media.

(Obviously not a real incident here - just an example of how it may play out)

I mention the Grenfell thing because the media, and everyone is out gunning for anyone and everyone connected with it, yet I have no doubt that when it was done the people involved all went along the lines of custom and practice, along with carefully worded contracts and reports, believing this would protect them. In fact these are now viewed as "slimy ways for professionals to evade their duties" when actually they did not believe they were doing anything wrong. (And most probably haven't)
 
P

Pre

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Straight out of the guidence notes to the S.I.

"12.4 The average cost of mandatory five-yearly electrical safety checks is estimated at £31 per year per property, totalling £33m. 78% of landlords already have electrical safety checks, so they will not be affected by this cost until they are due for a new inspection. There will also be an estimated one-off familiarisation cost of £14m to landlord."

I would love to know where they got there figures from for this. £155 for an average EICR (if completed every 5 years) may well be applicable to a 1 or 2 bed flat/ apartment or small house, but in reality we all know that larger properties with older/ modified electrical systems may well require a lot more time to ensure a thorough inspection is completed. Combine this with the fact that many rental properties are in areas where electrician's labour costs are much higher, such as large inner city areas, it would seem that this average price is not really a true reflection of reality. There have already been many cases of so called "drive by" EICR tests being carried out by "competent" electricians, so will this continue to be the case if landlords expect to pay this average price?
 
G

Grant1987

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What the legislation demands is irrelevant to the individual carrying out the test and inspection. This legislation is aimed at the landlord it is therefore up to them what extent of remedial works is required from the submitted EICR.
That’s exactly my way of thinking I conduct all my EICR’s to current regulations and any consumer units not meeting fire rated standards i deem as unsatisfactory although I know a lot of sparks class this as C3 I prefer to be more strict and don’t try to find ways around upgrading just upgrade the installation to satisfy current regs simple in my way of thinking. Although I do understand that financially it could be detrimental to the landlords but that’s what the rent payment is for maintenance and upkeep on your property.
 
suffolkspark

suffolkspark

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Esteemed
Arms
I conduct all my EICR’s to current regulations and any consumer units not meeting fire rated standards i deem as unsatisfactory although I know a lot of sparks class this as C3 I prefer to be more strict
A plastic consumer unit is a C3 if in sole means of escape, otherwise can have a note made or nothing at all. It does not trigger an unsatisfactory report. You best get yourself a best practice guide
 
Ian1981

Ian1981

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Mentor
Esteemed
Arms
That’s exactly my way of thinking I conduct all my EICR’s to current regulations and any consumer units not meeting fire rated standards i deem as unsatisfactory although I know a lot of sparks class this as C3 I prefer to be more strict and don’t try to find ways around upgrading just upgrade the installation to satisfy current regs simple in my way of thinking. Although I do understand that financially it could be detrimental to the landlords but that’s what the rent payment is for maintenance and upkeep on your property.
You C2 every plastic CU based on it being plastic alone??
If so then disgraceful.
You must also insist a CU is changed if plastic before you do any alterations or additions to existing installations then, like installing an extra socket for instance?
 
U

UNG

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Mentor
Esteemed
Arms
That’s exactly my way of thinking I conduct all my EICR’s to current regulations and any consumer units not meeting fire rated standards i deem as unsatisfactory although I know a lot of sparks class this as C3 I prefer to be more strict and don’t try to find ways around upgrading just upgrade the installation to satisfy current regs simple in my way of thinking. Although I do understand that financially it could be detrimental to the landlords but that’s what the rent payment is for maintenance and upkeep on your property.
I think you really need to review some of your simple way of thinking as you clearly do not have a proper and thorough understanding of the regs, what would be wrong with a plastic CU contained within a fire rated enclosure, the "EG metal" in the regs has been misinterpreted by many including yourself to suggest anything other than a metal consumer unit does not meet the regs when other compliance options exist within the regs.
It is not your responsibility to set the rules or change the level of the bar, but it is your responsibility to apply the regs in an honest a far way to all interested parties.

I don't think have a clue about the financials if the rent is only for maintenance and upkeep can you tell me what covers the mortgage, the return on the landlords capital investment and also the letting and property management costs of the property
 
G

Grant1987

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I think you really need to review some of your simple way of thinking as you clearly do not have a proper and thorough understanding of the regs, what would be wrong with a plastic CU contained within a fire rated enclosure, the "EG metal" in the regs has been misinterpreted by many including yourself to suggest anything other than a metal consumer unit does not meet the regs when other compliance options exist within the regs.
It is not your responsibility to set the rules or change the level of the bar, but it is your responsibility to apply the regs in an honest a far way to all interested parties.

I don't think have a clue about the financials if the rent is only for maintenance and upkeep can you tell me what covers the mortgage, the return on the landlords capital investment and also the letting and property management costs of the property
Oops, ruffled a few feathers by looks of it. Yea you’re right with the fire rated enclosure consumer unit. Id think that is perfectly fine being plastic if it’s enclosed within suitable enclosure. I must be one of the electricians that’s misinterpreted the regs then. I thought it had to be an enclosed chamber preventing the spread of potential fire. Same as I don’t like it when I see a metal consumer unit with open grommets being used rather than fire grommets. Or great big holes in either plastic or metal consumer. It is a difficult situation I understand but I thought that the idea is to bring electrical installations up to current standards. I’m not on here to argue just to learn more myself and give an opinion admittedly I can be wrong from time to time 🤦‍♂️
 
David Prosser

David Prosser

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Esteemed
Arms
Patron
May also be worth noting that you can get plastic CU that meet the requirments for non combustitble material.
 
G

Grant1987

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I think you really need to review some of your simple way of thinking as you clearly do not have a proper and thorough understanding of the regs, what would be wrong with a plastic CU contained within a fire rated enclosure, the "EG metal" in the regs has been misinterpreted by many including yourself to suggest anything other than a metal consumer unit does not meet the regs when other compliance options exist within the regs.
It is not your responsibility to set the rules or change the level of the bar, but it is your responsibility to apply the regs in an honest a far way to all interested parties.

I don't think have a clue about the financials if the rent is only for maintenance and upkeep can you tell me what covers the mortgage, the return on the landlords capital investment and also the letting and property management costs of the property
Sorry I clearly upset you but to answer the 2nd part of your message with regards to maintenance and upkeep on properties with rental income. If it’s your property in question then surely the rent covers your mortgage? With the capital investment do you mean spending money to maintain the property when things go wrong? Think that also applies to your 3rd point of property management surely if it’s your property you have to expect to pay out £££ to keep it habitable and safe for tenants. Same applies to homeowners when things go wrong or need upgrading got to pay the costs.
 
G

Grant1987

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A plastic consumer unit is a C3 if in sole means of escape, otherwise can have a note made or nothing at all. It does not trigger an unsatisfactory report. You best get yourself a best practice guide
Hia butt, yes I do think a best practice guide would be best for me because I don’t pretend to know it all I just take the cautious approach and maybe I exaggerated when I said I fail all plastic consumers that was me being harsh and annoyed when I see so many ppl looking for rules and regs to avoid updating/upgrading electrical installs. As for being disgraceful which I think you may have said (maybe not you) I find it disgraceful when I see the amounts charged by electricians for couple hours work.
 

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