New build ring circuit regulations -help please

[Davehaywire]

In a new build , I have noticed how the Sparks that have wired the house (4 bed 3 storey town house)

They have put the kitchen appliances sockets/kitchen worktop sockets/boiler fcu/1st floor sockets/2nd floor sockets on a 32A ring and the ground floor sockets only 4 sockets on another 32A ring.

personally I would of kept the kitchen ring separate from any other sockets, even worktop/appliances separate
and each floor on its own ring in an ideal world, separate circuit boiler fcu etc etc

I know they do things on the cheap to get these houses up.

Does anyone knows the regulation on keeping the kitchen ring separate from other sockets due to
loading , is there one? or can they get away with wiring like this

i also noticed the Sparks have used a Megger electrical cert and client has no cert back from building control to certify the electrical works

 

[davesparks]

What exactly do you mean by 'noticed'? You'd have to be looking pretty hard to just notice things like that.

The story has a slight whiff of kippers about it.

 

[Davehaywire]

Noticed as I looked round it very briefly and looked at the cert on a pdf nothing whiffy

 

[Octopus]

Noticed as I looked round it very briefly and looked at the cert on a pdf nothing whiffy

Looked around briefly???

as a spark yourself, what is your opinion?

 

[Davehaywire]

Please read my thread before posting a pointless answer

 

[Octopus]

Please read my thread before posting a pointless answer

Please re read my response and give me a sensible answer!

 

[davesparks]

Noticed as I looked round it very briefly and looked at the cert on a pdf nothing whiffy

Do you work in the domestic sector at all?

 

[Davehaywire]

My opinion is in my original post , I'm asking for advice on the regulation

 

[Octopus]

My opinion is in my original post , I'm asking for advice on the regulation

my opinion, nothing wrong with it!

 

[Paul.M]

Please Gents.


Reg will come under segregation of circuits btw.

 

[davesparks]

My opinion is in my original post , I'm asking for advice on the regulation

I'm lost, which regulation do you want advice on? A regulation number would help!

 

[Octopus]

Please Gents.


Reg will come under segregation of circuits btw.

paul, my response was intended to provoke against a pretty ****** op. My money is on the cert being wrong, so only a proper test will determine what has actually been installed. A quick look around would NOT reveal this

 

[Davehaywire]

So if a fault was to occur on the fore mentioned ring the whole house power and boiler would be off

Slight inconvenience I think

not very well thought out

 

[Paul.M]

paul, my response was intended to provoke against a pretty ******* op. My money is on the cert being wrong, so only a proper test will determine what has actually been installed. A quick look around would NOT reveal this

He may be only going by the cert that has been issued/seen:- "Megger electrical cert". This is his question imho? + any reg that this may be against.

 

[Octopus]

So if a fault was to occur on the fore mentioned ring the whole house power and boiler would be off

Slight inconvenience I think

not very well thought out

its still better than the muppets who install boards with a single RCD.

I STILL don't understand how you can conclude the cert you have seen is actually a correct reflection of the installation.....

 

[Davehaywire]

I just asking for opinions on how a new build has managed to have been signed off by the builders with pretty much 1 circuit for power for the whole house ,barring 4 sockets ground floor, is this common place for new builds these days, haven't got regs handy to look up

 

[Davehaywire]

The cert is dated 16 dec and was in the homebuyers pack why would it not be a true reflection of the installation, there are only 2 ring circuits
1 ground floor sockets x4
2 kitchen/1st/2nd/boiler fcu

 

[Paul.M]

The cert is dated 16 dec and was in the homebuyers pack why would it not be a true reflection of the installation, there are only 2 ring circuits
1 ground floor sockets x4
2 kitchen/1st/2nd/boiler fcu

Thank you for the info and yes that is pretty poor for any install.

 

[123]

Sounds poor, are there separate circuits for the likes of Fridge Freezer/Tumble Dryer/Washing Machine etc?

 

[davesparks]

The cert is dated 16 dec and was in the homebuyers pack why would it not be a true reflection of the installation, there are only 2 ring circuits
1 ground floor sockets x4
2 kitchen/1st/2nd/boiler fcu

Its a fairly standard, if somewhat outdated approach. Its based on the logic that bedrooms rarely have anu significant load on them so hey share a ring with the kitchen then the rest of the ground floor goes on another ring, unusual to see that approach applied to what sounds like a small area per floor.

Id likely have done one ring for groundfloor and another for the other two floors, but impossible to say for certain. They may have been working to a spec from a higher power.

 

[davesparks]

I just asking for opinions on how a new build has managed to have been signed off by the builders with pretty much 1 circuit for power for the whole house ,barring 4 sockets ground floor, is this common place for new builds these days, haven't got regs handy to look up

Even of you had a regs boom handy what would you look for?

 

[Davehaywire]

No only 2 rings for power
yes all fridge freezer tumble drier wash machine, boiler, worktop skts
kitchen 1st and 2nd on one 32a circuit

i need to know a regulation to state what I think before I say it if there is one, someone said segregation of circuits , would that apply to this

 

[Davehaywire]

Yes that's what I thought that they are working from a spec from the designer, I yes I understand the lower loading on the top 2 floors but surely just from inconvenience if there Is future fault on the circuit this is wrong

 

[newtothis]

There’s new town houses round my way, the ground floor is just a glorified large entrance hall split with a garage and a means to access the rear courtyard style garden. Is your ground floor more much more than that ?

Just thinking it through, I don’t know jack really, just interested

 

[davesparks]

i need to know a regulation to state what I think before I say it if there is one, someone said segregation of circuits , would that apply to this

The regulations don't work like that.

They require good design and the division of an installation to avoid danger etc arising from the failure of one circuit.

 

[davesparks]

Please Gents.


Reg will come under segregation of circuits btw.

When does segregation of circuits every come in to a domestic install? Apart from segregation of band 1 and band 2 voltages, but that's not relevant here.

 

[Paul.M]

When does segregation of circuits every come in to a domestic install? Apart from segregation of band 1 and band 2 voltages, but that's not relevant here.

Segregation may be the wrong word. The separation of circuits on a dual RCD CU in a domestic dwelling may be in section 5 of the BYB. I'll have a look tomorrow night. I'm off to bed.

 

[Geordie Spark]

I have lots of segregation in my house.

1. living/dining room with 10x double sockets on a 32A RCBO

2, Annex (converted garage) with 8x double sockets on a 32A RCBO

3. Utilty room with 4x double sockets (powering fridge/frezer, washing machine & Gas tumble dryer) on a 32A RCBO

4. Kitchen with 6x double sockets (powering fridge, ignition for gas cooker & electric kettle, toaster etc) on a 32A RCBO

5. Bedrooms 1 & 2 with 4 double sockets in each on a 32A RCBO

6. Bedrooms 3 & 4 with 4 double sockets in each on a 32A RCBO

7. Lighting to living/dining room & kitchen 2x 5 lamp chandiliers, 2x 2 lamp wall lights 1x ceiling rose. all on a 6A RCBO

8. Lighting to Utility Room & Annex 3x ceiling roses all on a 6A RCBO

9. Bedrooms 1&2 + staircase lights on a 6A RCBO

10. Bedrooms 3&4 lights on a 6A RCBO

11. Central Heating on a 6A RCBO

12. Intruder alarm on a 6A RCBO

13 Smoke/Heat alarms on a 6A RCBO

14. Is earmarked for my garage at the far end of the garden once I decide what cable to use and how to run it and get my health back to a sufficient level to be able to do it. ... Just now there's no chucking fance.


The C.U. is a nice big Wylex and it - together with all the RCBOs - fell out of the back of a van otherwise there would have been no way on God's earth that I would have been so extravagant!

 

[Richard Burns]

I would describe the install as poorly thought out but not specifically breaking any regulations, though I believe it is recommended that boilers should be on their own separate circuit and supplies ought to be sub divided into sufficient circuits to minimise inconvenience.
Section 314 applies in this case but even though one can see the inconvenience of the arrangement, the circuits as circuits will be very likely to be OK and the assessment of inconvenience and hazard is down to the designer.

 

[Midwest]

No only 2 rings for power
yes all fridge freezer tumble drier wash machine, boiler, worktop skts
kitchen 1st and 2nd on one 32a circuit

i need to know a regulation to state what I think before I say it if there is one, someone said segregation of circuits , would that apply to this

OP, I note from your profile, you are an electrician of 17 years experience and joined this forum some two years ago. You do not have many posts, but if you peruse this forum, you should have seen plenty of people starting threads with a 'I've got a friend, whose had his house wired by an electrician, but he's got no certificate, or I think they've used the wrong etc etc'.

As an electrician, you will have a copy of BS7671, which as a start, you could refer to the regulations you think have not been complied with.

You'll perhaps understand why some of the responses have been a little bit curt. If you could be more forthcoming from your first post, and quote the appropriate regulations, the replies would be more informative from the very experienced forum members, IMO.

 

[Pete999]

In a new build , I have noticed how the Sparks that have wired the house (4 bed 3 storey town house)

They have put the kitchen appliances sockets/kitchen worktop sockets/boiler fcu/1st floor sockets/2nd floor sockets on a 32A ring and the ground floor sockets only 4 sockets on another 32A ring.

personally I would of kept the kitchen ring separate from any other sockets, even worktop/appliances separate
and each floor on its own ring in an ideal world, separate circuit boiler fcu etc etc

I know they do things on the cheap to get these houses up.

Does anyone knows the regulation on keeping the kitchen ring separate from other sockets due to
loading , is there one? or can they get away with wiring like this

i also noticed the Sparks have used a Megger electrical cert and client has no cert back from building control to certify the electrical works

Would Appendix H OSG, Regulation 433.1.204 553.1.7 be applicable?????

 

[Blademan_98]

Would Appendix H OSG, Regulation 433.1.204 553.1.7 be applicable?????

I just had to go and get my regs out to check

Indeed, they are pertinent to the discussion!

I really should have them to hand when on the forum lol

 

[davesparks]

Segregation may be the wrong word. The separation of circuits on a dual RCD CU in a domestic dwelling may be in section 5 of the BYB. I'll have a look tomorrow night. I'm off to bed.

Right, I see what you're getting at now.
Division of the installation into circuits and division of the circuits are the terms of memory serves

 

[Dave OCD]

I think at best it's lazy and at worst a very poor installation design. It's always good practice to put kitchens and or utility rooms on their own circuits for power IMO as that's where quite possibly 80% + of the socket loading will be, I'd also be interested in what the Zs tests out at on a ring winding its way around 3 floors and back. And these days a boiler circuit which is crucial for heating and hot water ought to be on a dedicated RCBO if you're doing the job right.

 

[joehat]

I just asking for opinions on how a new build has managed to have been signed off by the builders with pretty much 1 circuit for power for the whole house ,barring 4 sockets ground floor, is this common place for new builds these days, haven't got regs handy to look up

I have a small 2 bed house all sockets on 1 ring circuit .3 year old

 

[Octopus]

I have a small 2 bed house all sockets on 1 ring circuit .3 year old

Out of interest how many circuits do you have and what type of CU is it? dual RCD or RCBO?

 

[joehat]

Out of interest how many circuits do you have and what type of CU is it? dual RCD or RCBO?

Legrand

duel rcd

Rcd 1
Up lights 6a
Boiler 16a
Hob 32a
Shower 40a

Rcd2
Lights down
Oven 32a
Sockets 32a ring

 

[uksparks]

The thing I have noticed about new builds is that the wiring is all slapped in, all the accessories are on the wonk or bodged in, the CU's are never labelled properly if at all, oh and to top it off everuthing that's been fitted is crappy Deta.

i bet you any money nothing has been tested and the readings in the schedule that's usually hanging out the lid are just copied from another property of same or similar style.

 

[Leesparkykent]

The thing I have noticed about new builds is that the wiring is all slapped in, all the accessories are on the wonk or bodged in, the CU's are never labelled properly if at all, oh and to top it off everuthing that's been fitted is crappy Deta.

i bet you any money nothing has been tested and the readings in the schedule that's usually hanging out the lid are just copied from another property of same or similar style.

Depends on who is doing them really doesn't it...not all new builds are like that... well ones I do aren't :rolleyes2:

 

[uksparks]

No not all, it's too common a problem unfortunately.

 

[Davehaywire]

At last thanks guys for some decent answers , I don't post on hear often , only when I have a question to discuss.
im testing the property tomorrow so will find out more and will update

Also there are 5 houses similar next to each other , I will be knocking on the neighbours door and asking to briefly see there cert,just to see if,(someone mentioned in a previous post )that the Certs have just been copied and pasted.

i will be getting my regs,GN3 out and looking through them, I haven't been at work for the last week due to holiday that's why I haven't had them to hand,it's been quite an interesting experience listening to all the various answers

it seems to be difficult for everyone to understand what I was getting at but got there in the end

 

[Octopus]

Legrand

duel rcd

Rcd 1
Up lights 6a
Boiler 16a
Hob 32a
Shower 40a

Rcd2
Lights down
Oven 32a
Sockets 32a ring

So if you are cooking in the winter you loose everything in the kitchen except the hob! I would put lights down on RCD1

 

[Davehaywire]

So if you are cooking in the winter you loose everything in the kitchen except the hob! I would put lights down on RCD1

Yeah on dual rcd I'd always have down power with up lights on rcd1
and up power on down lights rcd 2

 

[davesparks]

The thing I have noticed about new builds is that the wiring is all slapped in, all the accessories are on the wonk or bodged in, the CU's are never labelled properly if at all, oh and to top it off everuthing that's been fitted is crappy Deta.

i bet you any money nothing has been tested and the readings in the schedule that's usually hanging out the lid are just copied from another property of same or similar style.

Dont forget we are all far more likely to be coming across the badly installed ones from major developers due to the higher than average chance of faults and the one size fits nobody designs that people will always want to make changes to. Plus if its a bad job they womt call the same electricians back.

We're far less likely to see Higher spec new builds and those designed and built for a specific customer as they will have less need and more than likely stick with using the same electricians.

 

[Davehaywire]

Out of interest how many circuits do you have and what type of CU is it? dual RCD or RCBO?

dual rcd
10 circuits
Oh and the cu is the old hager plastic cu with the grey/blue flapped lid with dimples, nice to see they are using there old stock up 2 weeks before the metal cu's have to be installed !!

we have been installing metal ones all year, otherwise as soon as jan comes the cu will not be to current standards and client will not be too happy there newly installed cu is not to current standards and before anyone says they don't have to install them till jan, yes correct,but it's good for the client if your thinking ahead don't you think!

 

[Geordie Spark]

I can't see what the problem is. It's all about using a bit of common sense ...... Oh"!!! ... hang on a mo ........:hump:

 

[Simonslimline]

I can't see what the problem is. It's all about using a bit of common sense ...... Oh"!!! ... hang on a mo ........:hump:

The problem with common sense is it doesn't seem to be that common.

 

[Midwest]

At last thanks guys for some decent answers , I don't post on hear often , only when I have a question to discuss.
im testing the property tomorrow so will find out more and will update

Also there are 5 houses similar next to each other , I will be knocking on the neighbours door and asking to briefly see there cert,just to see if,(someone mentioned in a previous post )that the Certs have just been copied and pasted.

i will be getting my regs,GN3 out and looking through them, I haven't been at work for the last week due to holiday that's why I haven't had them to hand,it's been quite an interesting experience listening to all the various answers

it seems to be difficult for everyone to understand what I was getting at but got there in the end

I'm just curious to know why you are testing the property.
In your first post you said ' In a new build , I have noticed how the Sparks that have wired the house (4 bed 3 storey town house)'.
Are you doing a EICR or third party certifying?

 

[HappyHippyDad]

As above is this for an EICR?

If this is for an EICR Dave I wouldn't be putting it down as a code.

I haven't got the regs to hand but I expect there is something in there about 'sensible arrangement of circuits taking into account demand', but again it's not going to be dangerous, just (probably (without more info)) a poor design which may (probably wont) result in unwanted tripping.

However! Saying that, there is a alot on the ring (including boiler) so it may be a bit unbalanced, so part of the ring may have a greater demand than its CCC? So if you fancy doing a very detailed EICR you could trace out the ring, checking out the demand of each section etc etc. Obviously this is over the top but you've expressed concerns, in particular about the ring design so it's up to you Dave!

ps.. Blast you Glenn!! keep seeing that damn teapot!! Must get around to changing it!!

 

[Midwest]

Have to say the house I live in, built in the late eighties with only one RFC, never had any probs. Then again, it's not a mansion and under 100sqm.