Hi, I'm new here, and also a new PA tester :)

[Dredj]

Hi guys, it's my first post. Nice to meet you all.

I've had a browse on this forum already to get a feel for the place and I think it's appropriate that I announce my status as a PA Tester. My company, which is not a PAT testing company sent me and one other to PETA for the half day course to become "competent" at testing with the goal that he and I will carry out all possible testing within our own company. I believe it's a cost cutting measure and since doing the course I've been looking at the stickers the PAT testing company used the last 2 years and I have my doubts on what actually went on. I've seen equipment with only 2014 stickers even though they were here in 2015.

The PETA course was more of a health and safety course with about 30 minutes of practical work, visually checking equipment first then deciding whether to test an item. PETA was very clear about saying we are "competent" and not qualified PAT testers.

I've seen a few references in threads about C&G 2237. I don't have that but I do have C&G 2230 and 2240, they reference to Microcomputer technology and Electronics Servicing respectively. In 2016 these courses have different numbers. Mine were awarded in 2001.

So it's been a month since we did our course and today I pushed the company again about getting our testing equipment so we can get started, we emailed some machines to our boss for consideration, as well as a microwave leak tester. We were advised that, Fluke is the best brand to go for but I'd like some recommendations from you guys here. We don't seen anything fancy, just standard 3 pin plug and IEC lead port. The machine we used at, PETA was a Metrel but I don't remember the model.

Thanks.

 

[davesparks]

The sticker is pretty much irrelevant, and unless things have changed since I last visited the topic is not actually required by the cop.

Do you have a copy of the current ISITEE CoP? If not you should really have one to refer to.

Pretty much all appliance testers will have the bs1363 socket and IEC plug, it is the actual tests which it can carry out which you need to concern yourself with. Some testers will only do a low current earth bond test, or won't do some other tests, so you need to select one which is capable of doing the tests you need.

You should also think about whether or not you need it to store results and download them to a PC or if you will be manually recording the test results.


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[Pete999]

As Dave says, also you don't need to be qualified, just competent, as for labels, one thing there is no need to put the date of the next test on the equipment, the period of test intervals is the sole responsibility of the responsible person in charge. that could be you, but normally or in my case this was down to the H&S Manager.

 

[spary]

I do in house pa testing of about 300 items a year at the industrial site i work at.
While recently flapping because some items were out of date the boss said "Spary, no one really cares about PA testing", since then i've stopped flapping.

 

[Pete999]

I do in house pa testing of about 300 items a year at the industrial site i work at.
While recently flapping because some items were out of date the boss said "Spary, no one really cares about PA testing", since then i've stopped flapping.

No one cares until some poor sap get a poke from badly maintained equipment, Boss want's his backside kicking, dipstick.

 

[ohreally]

Try and get a downloadable tester supplied,it will save writing out reams of labels an documentation by hand.

I have a Megger PAT4 DV3, old and heavy but works well, current instrument is an Apollo 500, has some shortcomings but okish.

 

[Adam W]

Welcome to the forum.

The visual (or as my college tutor called it "all senses except taste") inspection is far more valuable than the actual test - I've only had a handful of items fail (mostly electric radiators due to degrading insulation) due to anything which can't be picked up without using a tester at all. The most common problems will be mechanical damage, maybe badly wired plugs, incorrect fuse size etc.

A lot of electricians swear by Fluke as the best brand for installation testers, but for PAT testers Seaward seem to be one of the best.
They do a wide range of testers, from this one:
Seaward Primetest 50 PAT Tester
Seaward Primetest 50 PAT Kit A
which is probably the cheapest PAT tester you'll get. If you're only doing testing every now and again, and you're paid by the hour, it's hardly worth paying the extra for a fancy tester with memory functions and printers and things.

 

[Dredj]

I have 2 questions for everyone from a PAT testers view. A lot of the machines in our workshop at work are so run down, 1 of the pillar drills has developed a faulty switch so if you try to turn it on of off by the switch there is a loud pop and to turn it back on we have to go to the fuse box and kept flipping the switch until it turns on and stays on, after that we turn it on and off by the isolation switch. It's been like this since around, February/March'ish.

Using the 3 steps I learned for PA Testing, Operator report, visual inspection and the PA Test, I would fail this pillar drill.

Most of the Machinery we won't actually be doing a plug it in and test it because it's plumbed in electrics and we don't know how.

The other machine is our saw, it's been dodgy since before I started working here and it's even worse now. Previously, after a cut and we release the 2 switches that bring the saw up and forward the machine would cut out and turn off. But now it's so bad that the side door where the electrics are is open all the time so the fail safe is being bypassed because it shouldn't turn on with that door open. When the machine cuts out and won't turn back on and it didn't blow on the switchboard like the pillar drill does then it's into that side panel the operator goes to poke a relay switch.

Another piece of machinery I would fail on the basis that no one should be going into that electrical box to operate the saw.

I welcome your opinions.

 

[ohreally]

If the appliances are hard wired then I strongly suggest you don't get involved with the testing/ inspection as a greater degree of skill and knowledge is required due to the specific risks likely to be encountered.

I suggest becoming acquainted with PUWER, this places a duty on employers to ensure adequate maintenance is carried out, is recorded and at suitable frequencies (are there trade union safety reps appointed?).

 

[Adam W]

If every time you try to turn this pillar drill on it makes a loud pop and the protective device operates to protect the circuit, it should be quite clear to anyone that there is a fault with it and it shouldn't be used until it's either replaced or fixed by a person who is competent to do so.

So what exactly are you hoping will happen if you continue to use it? Do you think if you leave it for long enough it will heal itself? Or maybe in the same way as you keep re-setting the breaker until the one time it doesn't trip, one day it will just hold for good and that will be it? Have you tried getting angry with it? Maybe shouting at it will help?

 

[Dredj]

If every time you try to turn this pillar drill on it makes a loud pop and the protective device operates to protect the circuit, it should be quite clear to anyone that there is a fault with it and it shouldn't be used until it's either replaced or fixed by a person who is competent to do so.

So what exactly are you hoping will happen if you continue to use it? Do you think if you leave it for long enough it will heal itself? Or maybe in the same way as you keep re-setting the breaker until the one time it doesn't trip, one day it will just hold for good and that will be it? Have you tried getting angry with it? Maybe shouting at it will help?

You make it sound like we have a sentimental attachment to this pillar drill. We have no choice but to use it, the operators have informed management of the issue and they say it's working this way so use it. Until something is well and truly dead nothing will happen and that's why I'm asking for advice if under PAT testing conditions I can force their hand by declaring the pillar drill unsafe and have them replace it or have it repaired.

 

[ruston]

You make it sound like we have a sentimental attachment to this pillar drill. We have no choice but to use it, the operators have informed management of the issue and they say it's working this way so use it. Until something is well and truly dead nothing will happen and that's why I'm asking for advice if under PAT testing conditions I can force their hand by declaring the pillar drill unsafe and have them replace it or have it repaired.

Are you also the safety rep ; do you have one?

 

[Dredj]

Are you also the safety rep ; do you have one?

No I'm not. We had 3 but now 2 and it's been so long that I don't remember the last time a safety meeting happened. I don't know what involvement he's had. Our supervisor knows of the problems and he's told management and that's where it's been left. I'll definitely quiz him next week though.

 

[snowhead]

I can force their hand by declaring the pillar drill unsafe and have them replace it or have it repaired.

You can declare it unsafe.
You can put as many stickers on it as you like.

You don't have the authority to stop people using it.
If the operators are prepared to use it and the Management are not prepared to replace it, then it's out of your hands.

If there was an incident with it and HSE got involved everyone using it would have to explain why they kept on using it.

It would be amusing to see the maintenance records for all the machinery in this place.

Are these machines in the Maintenance workshop or in the main production area?

 

[ruston]

Beggars belief.

 

[Adam W]

If it goes bang when you switch it on then it's broken - any idiot can see (and hear) that.

If management have decreed that you must use it by whatever means possible, perhaps you could outline the condition of this pillar drill in writing. As snowhead says you can't physically stop people using it, but management types are more likely to take notice if there's some kind of paper trail.

The law states:
"No electrical equipment shall be put into use where its strength and capability may be exceeded in such a way as may give rise to danger." (Electricity at Work Regulations 1989)
and
"Every employer shall ensure that work equipment is maintained in an efficient state, in efficient working order and in good repair."
(Provision and Use of Work Equipment Regulations 1998)
Maybe put that in your letter.

 

[Dredj]

The machines I'm talking of are all in the workshop. There aren't any machines in the assembly area.

All machines have yearly servicing except the pillar drills which get repaired if needed, I don't know why it isn't happening this time.

The saw cutting out problem gets ignored because the service engineer doesn't have electrical diagrams every year since I've been working here the saw has had 3 services and it just got serviced in, June and all the extra problems the saw has now developed after the service so my company is blaming the engineer and are refusing to pay the service fee and the engineer won't come back to sort out these new problems until the service fee is paid.

The brake presses which I have not mentioned before have problems which also don't get resolved every year.

Just for clarity I am under no illusion that what I deal with at work is normal the entire workshop needs to be refurbished.

 

[ruston]

Even without a paper trail they are on a hiding to nowt.
Mines and quarries were better than Hercule Poirot.

Factories inspectorate will do the same.So will the police.

 

[ohreally]

Have a word in the safety reps ear...https://www.hse.gov.uk/forms/incident/f2533.pdf

 

[Adam W]

Oh yeah if the brown stuff hit the fan they'd get done for it, probably worse if there weren't a paper trail because they hadn't kept records, but that should be a last resort - the best solution would be if management pulled their finger out and got this stuff fixed, and the threat of written records which mean they can't just look the other way, put their fingers in their ears and deny all knowledge might be the kick up the bottom they need.

 

[ruston]

Oh yeah if the brown stuff hit the fan they'd get done for it, probably worse if there weren't a paper trail because they hadn't kept records, but that should be a last resort - the best solution would be if management pulled their finger out and got this stuff fixed, and the threat of written records which mean they can't just look the other way, put their fingers in their ears and deny all knowledge might be the kick up the bottom they need.

In the early days we had a fatal accident on the site . This was just at the onset of H&E.
It was mines and quarries with police presence that conducted the investigation.they missed nothing. No one would want to be a part of that ; believe me , best to do it right.

 

[davesparks]

You make it sound like we have a sentimental attachment to this pillar drill. We have no choice but to use it, the operators have informed management of the issue and they say it's working this way so use it. Until something is well and truly dead nothing will happen and that's why I'm asking for advice if under PAT testing conditions I can force their hand by declaring the pillar drill unsafe and have them replace it or have it repaired.

You have a choice, plain and simple, don't use it.

You have identified that there is a fault, you now need to make the responsible person aware of the fault, and make sure you have solid proof that you have made them aware (ie a copy of the written message you gave them). By noticing this problem and not taking the correct action you are putting liability on yourself.
If the management do nothing, or tell you to carry on using the equipment, then insist on having this instruction in writing, and the go to the HSE with it.

 

[davesparks]

Until something is well and truly dead nothing will happen

What about someone? This could easily result in someone being well and truly dead. And if that does happen then there will be a thorough investigation, so you better be damned sure that you've done everything you can to get this fixed or taken out of service, otherwise you could be joining the management on their way to a manslaughter conviction.

 

[ruston]

What about someone? This could easily result in someone being well and truly dead. And if that does happen then there will be a thorough investigation, so you better be damned sure that you've done everything you can to get this fixed or taken out of service, otherwise you could be joining the management on their way to a manslaughter conviction.

Absolutely. No messing

 

[davesparks]

Absolutely. No messing

There's two guys currently serving time after an incident in one of the industries I work in, despite there being nothing they could do to change what happened. Which is a little scary thinking that I am in an equivalent position and the exact same could happen to me.

 

[ruston]

There's two guys currently serving time after an incident in one of the industries I work in, despite there being nothing they could do to change what happened. Which is a little scary thinking that I am in an equivalent position and the exact same could happen to me.

Yes you have to be so careful. It was the same where I was . Production was everything, and downtime a major no no. Any accidents that blame could be passed down the line was the way they worked .
All of our machines usually took no prisoners owing to the size and nature of the work and conditions, anyone who had not stuck to procedures were sacrificed, but they were under pressure to complete tasks and move muck etc.
The top would let it go if nothing happened.

 

[davesparks]

Yes you have to be so careful. It was the same where I was . Production was everything, and downtime a major no no. Any accidents that blame could be passed down the line was the way they worked .
All of our machines usually took no prisoners owing to the size and nature of the work and conditions, anyone who had not stuck to procedures were sacrificed, but they were under pressure to complete tasks and move muck etc.
The top would let it go if nothing happened.

The incident I'm referring to is a bit different.
The unfortunate souls were two members of the fire brigade, who ignored their standing orders to not go in to this particular situation as there were no people in need of rescue and far too much danger from a fire which simply cannot be put out.

The blame landed on the two owners of the company which operates the site, despite them having no control over what the fire brigade do.

 

[ruston]

You are right , That is scary.
You are in a dangerous industry, It must be nerve racking owing to the nature of your work.

 

[davesparks]

You are right , That is scary.
You are in a dangerous industry, It must be nerve racking owing to the nature of your work.

We've learned from the mistake which started that particular fire!

It's an interesting one certainly, but perhaps not quite as dangerous as it sounds.
What is surprisingly dangerous is the comparison of the fireworks which are sold to the general public and those which only professionals can buy.
I've dismantled and modified a fair few of both (which we are fully licenced and registered to do) and the stuff available to the public isn't exactly well built!

 

[ruston]

and the stuff available to the public isn't exactly well built!

That is beginning to be a sign of the times now . Even in our industry.

 

[davesparks]

and the stuff available to the public isn't exactly well built!

That is beginning to be a sign of the times now . Even in our industry.

Well yes, but when it's packed full of gunpowder it's pretty worrying!

 

[ruston]

I know lol. I saw a 200 ton excavator steel plates caved in while backing away from the rock face and the blast set off prematurely.

 

[davesparks]

I know lol. I saw a 200 ton excavator steel plates caved in while backing away from the rock face and the blast set off prematurely.

Ouch!

My grandad had some similar stories from his days as a diesel fitter in the Australian mines and quarries

 

[ruston]

Ouch!

My grandad had some similar stories from his days as a diesel fitter in the Australian mines and quarries

Aye it was fun . If they did not stem the bore holes properly it was rock roman candles lol.
They whistled a tune on the way down.

 

[davesparks]

Aye it was fun . If they did not stem the bore holes properly it was rock roman candles lol.
They whistled a tune on the way down.

There's nothing worse than a whistling Roman candle!

 

[ruston]

There's nothing worse than a whistling Roman candle!

Aye , one of them came through the roof of the meat wagon (personnel carrier} and landed in the gangway between the lads. It was a miracle no one was hurt. It was an old Bedford 4wd converted ex army lorry. It had a hole in the roof like a shell hole