Blowing sockets and popping RCD

[littlespark]

Pack it in, it’s the weekend for goodness sake.

It’s been confirmed the OP is a trainee, and doesn’t know everything yet.

Any negative comments should be aimed at his company sending him out on his own, rather than himself.

 

[Grant1987]

An apprentice of 2½ years experience doesn't make mistakes like this and your post reflects your lack of experience if you consider 2 - 3 way switching 10x harder than fitting a couple of sockets then your breath of experience is very shallow. Doing DB / CU upgrades requires an amount of testing to be carried out and the issuing of the appropriate certification all of which should assist you in finding the fault in this instance

Attitude is everything and yours stinks no wonder it appears you have learnt very little in 2½ years

You clearly have made a mistake which is why you are on here and the reason you are on here is you have not got the face to speak with the electricians you work with for their assistance or if you have it would appear they have little no more experience than you are currently demonstrating
It is pointless getting arsey when asked reasonable questions by those members who are trying to help you it is very easy to install anything it is a lot harder to fault find why it all went wrong, fault finding is an analytical process of identifying why it all went wrong and that process can and frequently does mean you have to carry out the appropriate testing and this forum is not some magical chrystal ball that can advise on the problem without some clarity and feedback on what you have or haven't done

Our advice to you josh is although it may seem a bit harsh, we do not want you to cause harm to yourself or more importantly your client. You don’t play electrics or gas but you can play paint or plastering. I appreciate your coming on this forum for advice because your stuck, come clean and ask your employer for help. Walk before you run

 

[Grant1987]

Pack it in, it’s the weekend for goodness sake.

It’s been confirmed the OP is a trainee, and doesn’t know everything yet.

Any negative comments should be aimed at his company sending him out on his own, rather than himself.

Yes but the trainee needs to realise the risks involved regardless if it’s weekend or not. You can’t potch about with electrics unless your superior feels your able to. Although the crash course sparks worry me

 

[Alan-N]

no the actual sockets sparked and blew in front of me
The mcb never tripped once only the RCD

Sounds to me like you have reversed L & E or N & E
OR you're just here to wind people up, cos clearly you shouldn't have been doing what you were doing

 

[Josh555]

Sounds to me like you have reversed L & E or N & E
OR you're just here to wind people up, cos clearly you shouldn't have been doing what you were doing

No they were not reversed I checked my connections like I said. I also used my socket tester before I left which shows if all cables are in the correct terminals

 

[littlespark]

Did you go back this morning to see what had happened?

 

[telectrix]

No they were not reversed I checked my connections like I said. I also used my socket tester before I left which shows if all cables are in the correct terminals

in an earlier post you said that the old sockets were removed and the circuit "worked". This suggests a problem with said sockets.

 

[Josh555]

in an earlier post you said that the old sockets were removed and the circuit "worked". This suggests a problem with said sockets.

To be honest they were quite old sockets so maybe they were faulty

 

[Josh555]

red to brown, green to green, blue to bits.

Yes but the trainee needs to realise the risks involved regardless if it’s weekend or not. You can’t potch about with electrics unless your superior feels your able to. Although the crash course sparks worry me

My superior does feel am able to like I said I can do much more complex tasks than running a 30cm 2.5 out of one socket into another. Also this was a private job nothing to do with my company

 

[Risteard]

Pack it in, it’s the weekend for goodness sake.

It’s been confirmed the OP is a trainee, and doesn’t know everything yet.

Any negative comments should be aimed at his company sending him out on his own, rather than himself.

My understanding of this is that the company didn't send him out to do this job, but rather that it is being done as a "nixer". Apologies in advance if I have misunderstood.

 

[Josh555]

My understanding of this is that the company didn't send him out to do this job, but rather that it is being done as a "nixer". Apologies in advance if I have misunderstood.

You are correct

 

[Alan-N]

No they were not reversed I checked my connections like I said. I also used my socket tester before I left which shows if all cables are in the correct terminals

Well you have a line to cpc or neutral to cpc short which is why the RCD is kicking in before the MCB, if you don't have a cable in the wrong connector, then check around the metal back box, did you catch a wire when you put the socket screw back in, or was there a cut in insulation that has now touched the box

 

[Josh555]

Well you have a line to cpc or neutral to cpc short which is why the RCD is kicking in before the MCB, if you don't have a cable in the wrong connector, then check around the metal back box, did you catch a wire when you put the socket screw back in, or was there a cut in insulation that has now touched the box

Will have a look at this next time I go thanks for the help

 

[Lister1987]

Well you have a line to cpc or neutral to cpc short which is why the RCD is kicking in before the MCB, if you don't have a cable in the wrong connector, then check around the metal back box, did you catch a wire when you put the socket screw back in, or was there a cut in insulation that has now touched the box

I was waiting for a comment like this, OP should get to know what devices operate when and why; with the RCD going off before/insert of the MÇB he ought to know straight away he's looking for a fault to earth.

 

[westward10]

Can we keep this friendly trading insults is not helping in any way.

 

[Alan-N]

Right let's start from basics Josh, your original post is a bit confusing and throwing in things like "sparking down" and "blowing" didn't help others to sympathize with your situation.

It sounds like you added 2 sockets by spurring off a ring in 2 places, 1 spur per new socket, and you didn't extend the ring

It's not clear if your subsequent issues came from 1 or both of the old sockets. let's assume just the 1 as 2 would be more than bad luck

I believe you now have the new sockets operational with no more tripping the RCD, and you have achieved that be removing the old sockets and using wago connectors. Again not sure if that's both of them or just the 1

So if this is correct then the fault which is almost certainly a short to earth (or cpc if you prefer) is very likely to be one of your conductors was shorting against the metal backbox , although your description suggested it was shorting inside the socket itself which is why I asked if you had inadvertently used the wrong connections to the socket. If you are used to using only the same type over and over, then you need to always double-check you get them right as not all sockets are set out the same.

Your next step should be to go back with 2 new sockets to replace your wago's BUT carefully check ALL the conductors for any damage and take with you some sleeving (all 3 colours) to make good any cuts in the insulation, pay attention to areas around the knockouts and ensure all grommets are in place. Even if there were no grommets fitted, it is now your responsibility to fit them. Also check for damage where the socket screws might have cut in when you tightened them up

New sockets and proper insulation should solve your issue if its working with wago's

Testing is important, I'm not going to preach, but at the least you want to check you have a decent Zs at all 4. A socket tester is a handy tool, but shouldn't be an alternative to proper testing.

You will learn from this , but if you genuinely want help again be humble. State upfront your in training and need advise, and be precise in how you present your issue.

Good luck

 

[Josh555]

Right let's start from basics Josh, your original post is a bit confusing and throwing in things like "sparking down" and "blowing" didn't help others to sympathize with your situation.

It sounds like you added 2 sockets by spurring off a ring in 2 places, 1 spur per new socket, and you didn't extend the ring

It's not clear if your subsequent issues came from 1 or both of the old sockets. let's assume just the 1 as 2 would be more than bad luck

I believe you now have the new sockets operational with no more tripping the RCD, and you have achieved that be removing the old sockets and using wago connectors. Again not sure if that's both of them or just the 1

So if this is correct then the fault which is almost certainly a short to earth (or cpc if you prefer) is very likely to be one of your conductors was shorting against the metal backbox , although your description suggested it was shorting inside the socket itself which is why I asked if you had inadvertently used the wrong connections to the socket. If you are used to using only the same type over and over, then you need to always double-check you get them right as not all sockets are set out the same.

Your next step should be to go back with 2 new sockets to replace your wago's BUT carefully check ALL the conductors for any damage and take with you some sleeving (all 3 colours) to make good any cuts in the insulation, pay attention to areas around the knockouts and ensure all grommets are in place. Even if there were no grommets fitted, it is now your responsibility to fit them. Also check for damage where the socket screws might have cut in when you tightened them up

New sockets and proper insulation should solve your issue if its working with wago's

Testing is important, I'm not going to preach, but at the least you want to check you have a decent Zs at all 4. A socket tester is a handy tool, but shouldn't be an alternative to proper testing.

You will learn from this , but if you genuinely want help again be humble. State upfront your in training and need advise, and be precise in how you present your issue.

Good luck

Thank you very much.
Much appreciated, I will take this on board
Have a wonderful day

 

[Risteard]

Right let's start from basics Josh, your original post is a bit confusing and throwing in things like "sparking down" and "blowing" didn't help others to sympathize with your situation.

It sounds like you added 2 sockets by spurring off a ring in 2 places, 1 spur per new socket, and you didn't extend the ring

It's not clear if your subsequent issues came from 1 or both of the old sockets. let's assume just the 1 as 2 would be more than bad luck

I believe you now have the new sockets operational with no more tripping the RCD, and you have achieved that be removing the old sockets and using wago connectors. Again not sure if that's both of them or just the 1

So if this is correct then the fault which is almost certainly a short to earth (or cpc if you prefer) is very likely to be one of your conductors was shorting against the metal backbox , although your description suggested it was shorting inside the socket itself which is why I asked if you had inadvertently used the wrong connections to the socket. If you are used to using only the same type over and over, then you need to always double-check you get them right as not all sockets are set out the same.

Your next step should be to go back with 2 new sockets to replace your wago's BUT carefully check ALL the conductors for any damage and take with you some sleeving (all 3 colours) to make good any cuts in the insulation, pay attention to areas around the knockouts and ensure all grommets are in place. Even if there were no grommets fitted, it is now your responsibility to fit them. Also check for damage where the socket screws might have cut in when you tightened them up

New sockets and proper insulation should solve your issue if its working with wago's

Testing is important, I'm not going to preach, but at the least you want to check you have a decent Zs at all 4. A socket tester is a handy tool, but shouldn't be an alternative to proper testing.

You will learn from this , but if you genuinely want help again be humble. State upfront your in training and need advise, and be precise in how you present your issue.

Good luck

Shouldn't really use sleeving to repair damaged insulation as it's only for identification purposes and isn't rated for any insulating properties.

 

[123]

Looks like that consumer unit (post #3) was changed last March - and what a state it looks. 63A up front RCD with Shower (32A MCB, hmmm), Panel Heater, Cooker and then all the rest of the house on it. Not that familiar with Wylex but that RCD looks a fair bit older than the rest of the board (can't recall the last time I got a type AC from wholesalers)

 

[ipf]

Looks like that consumer unit (post #3) was changed last March - and what a state it looks. 63A up front RCD with Shower (32A MCB, hmmm), Panel Heater, Cooker and then all the rest of the house on it. Not that familiar with Wylex but that RCD looks a fair bit older than the rest of the board (can't recall the last time I got a type AC from wholesalers)

Yeah, no main switch, even, let alone RCD separation. Looks like touching the job was asking for trouble, especially for someone so inexperienced.
Thought it was the type A incomer these days. Generally use them for garage units.

 

[goasis]

Come on then @Josh555 ... you got some grief over the weekend, have you been back to sort this yet? What was it?

 

[Grant1987]

Come on then @Josh555 ... you got some grief over the weekend, have you been back to sort this yet? What was it?

I think he we might have hit a nerve with josh. Although we do come across as being harsh it’s with good intentions. If he reads through Alan-N’s post step by step he will have sorted the fault. Anyhow I hope you don’t get put off josh but the guys/gals on here can be ruthless at times (speaking from prior experience) but will always try to help a fellow tradesman

 

[7029 dave]

Just looked at this thread and all the posts, the OP is clearly out of his depth and should not be taking on jobs unless supervised.
No testing, not using the correct terminology. I would have thought with over 2years experience the OP would be at a higher level of experience.
Fair play to @Alan-N trying to assist but step by step coaching from the key board!!
These might be harsh words but I am only trying to make the OP realise electricity is dangerous, with what he described lucky there was not a fire.

 

[Josh555]

Just looked at this thread and all the posts, the OP is clearly out of his depth and should not be taking on jobs unless supervised.
No testing, not using the correct terminology. I would have thought with over 2years experience the OP would be at a higher level of experience.
Fair play to @Alan-N trying to assist but step by step coaching from the key board!!
These might be harsh words but I am only trying to make the OP realise electricity is dangerous, with what he described lucky there was not a fire.

Don’t know how not using the correct terminology shows a level of experience but ok. Please don’t assume because someone doesn’t use correct terminology they are inexperienced you never know the causes And by the way a lot of electricians don’t carry out testing before carrying out minor works. Only spuring of two double sockets

I have carried out much more complex task unsupervised

And by the way a reply too @goasis the problem was a debris in the terminals of the old sockets. a lot of plaster dust from the plasterer as they were doing the place up

 

[7029 dave]

Don’t know how not using the correct terminology shows a level of experience but ok. And by the way a lot of electricians don’t carry out testing before carrying out minor works. Only spuring of two double sockets

I have carried out much more complex task unsupervised

And by the way a reply too @goasis the problem was a debris in the terminals of the old sockets.

OK (by the way) crack on.
You dont have to tell me my business fella been at this game 42years.

 

[Lister1987]

Don’t know how not using the correct terminology shows a level of experience but ok.

A conscientious tradesperson, when talking to others in same trade, ought to be using the correct terms a) to avoid confusion and misinterpretion, b) to demonstrate understanding and c) because it's professional. Not knowing the vernacular can be a quickfire indication that a person may not know how to walk before they start running. You could say its just being anally retentive but wherever you are in your learning journey, it's vital to use the correct vernacular.

And by the way a lot of electricians don’t carry out testing before carrying out minor works. Only spuring of two double sockets

Just because that's how they do it, doesn't mean it's correct. There is a reason that the sequence of tests appear in the order they do.

Many electricians will no doubt have stories of times they didn't check the health of an installation prior to undertaking work, only be have a horrific time with the installation because things snowballed.

132.16 - No addition or alteration, temporary or permanent, shall be made to an existing installation, unless it has been ascertained that the rating and the condition of any existing equipment, including that of the distributor, will be adequate for the altered circumstances. Furthermore, the earthing and bonding arrangements, if necessary for the protective measure applied for the safety of the addition or alteration, shall be adequate.

Which leads nicely into 134.1.1 -
Good workmanship by one or more skilled or instructed persons and proper materials shall be used in the erection of the electrical installation. The installation of electrical equipment shall take account of manufacturers' instructions.

How can one claim good workmanship if they've not checked before undertaking the work?

As much as I hate religious teachings; "The foolish man built his house upon the sand" , Don't ask where it comes from, it just fits with the point

 

[Josh555]

A conscientious tradesperson, when talking to others in same trade, ought to be using the correct terms a) to avoid confusion and misinterpretion, b) to demonstrate understanding and c) because it's professional. Not knowing the vernacular can be a quickfire indication that a person may not know how to walk before they start running. You could say its just being anally retentive but wherever you are in your learning journey, it's vital to use the correct vernacular.


Just because that's how they do it, doesn't mean it's correct. There is a reason that the sequence of tests appear in the order they do.

Many electricians will no doubt have stories of times they didn't check the health of an installation prior to undertaking work, only be have a horrific time with the installation because things snowballed.

132.16 - No addition or alteration, temporary or permanent, shall be made to an existing installation, unless it has been ascertained that the rating and the condition of any existing equipment, including that of the distributor, will be adequate for the altered circumstances. Furthermore, the earthing and bonding arrangements, if necessary for the protective measure applied for the safety of the addition or alteration, shall be adequate.

Which leads nicely into 134.1.1 -
Good workmanship by one or more skilled or instructed persons and proper materials shall be used in the erection of the electrical installation. The installation of electrical equipment shall take account of manufacturers' instructions.

How can one claim good workmanship if they've not checked before undertaking the work?

As much as I hate religious teachings; "The foolish man built his house upon the sand" , Don't ask where it comes from, it just fits with the point

Fare enough just not used to testing before carrying out work. Will think about this moving forward

 

[Josh555]

OK (by the way) crack on.
You dont have to tell me my business fella been at this game 42years.

 

[7029 dave]

As much as I hate religious teachings; "The foolish man built his house upon the sand" , Don't ask where it comes from, it just fits with the point
And as the rain came tumbling down the foolish mans house is washed away.

 

[Grant1987]

Fare enough just not used to testing before carrying out work. Will think about this moving forward

Take it on the chin josh, however do not be afraid to write on here at any time. Like I said In previous post, I’ve been through similar scenario as yourself but I’ve always respected the views and advice from the seniors on here or juniors and learnt a great deal. It’s a great forum to broaden your knowledge so stick at it

 

[Lucien Nunes]

The problem was a debris in the terminals of the old sockets. a lot of plaster dust from the plasterer as they were doing the place up

That's surprising and I think there might be more to it than plaster dust itself. Dry / dusty plaster is a reasonable insulator. Wet plaster is conductive but one would have to form a bridge of wet plaster from the line terminal to the earth to get enough leakage to trip an RCD.

What were the IR readings before / after corrective action?

 

[Josh555]

That's surprising and I think there might be more to it than plaster dust itself. Dry / dusty plaster is a reasonable insulator. Wet plaster is conductive but one would have to form a bridge of wet plaster from the line terminal to the earth to get enough leakage to trip an RCD.

What were the IR readings before / after corrective action?

Results were the same before and after
L-N >999
N-E >999
L-E >999

 

[timhoward]

Fare enough just not used to testing before carrying out work. Will think about this moving forward

It's good to hear you say that. If you start making this a habit then it will definitely save you a heap of hassle one day. As well as being required by regs (as @Lister1987 explained) checking things are fine while you still have the walk-away option is a fundamental self-preservation tactic!

By the way, I'm sure several of us could think back to our first post on here and shudder slightly! It's worth sticking around. There's lot's of great people lurking around willing to help.

 

[Josh555]

It's good to hear you say that. If you start making this a habit then it will definitely save you a heap of hassle one day. As well as being required by regs (as @Lister1987 explained) checking things are fine while you still have the walk-away option is a fundamental self-preservation tactic!

By the way, I'm sure several of us could think back to our first post on here and shudder slightly! It's worth sticking around. There's lot's of great people lurking around willing to help.

Definitely

 

[James]

By the way, I'm sure several of us could think back to our first post on here and shudder slightly! It's worth sticking around. There's lot's of great people lurking around willing to help.

I am sure if we are being honest, most of us will have a little shudder thinking back on some of the first jobs we did on site.

 

[ipf]

I am sure if we are being honest, most of us will have a little shudder thinking back on some of the first jobs we did on site.

I remember an under manager at our first wholesalers causing great amusement by taking me apart as an apprentice with a list of materials to pick up. I let it rest for a few years before ripping him apart on numerous occasions when materials I wanted weren't immediately at hand, faulty or just crap.
Standing joke, for a good while, how he used to make himself scarce before I got to his office.
Give him his due, though, he was always one of the first to offer me drinks when we went on various free do's.
He ended up very high up the supply chain and a very useful contact in the trade. They don't seem make 'em like that, these days.

 

[Pegasus]

It's good to hear you say that. If you start making this a habit then it will definitely save you a heap of hassle one day. As well as being required by regs (as @Lister1987 explained) checking things are fine while you still have the walk-away option is a fundamental self-preservation tactic!

By the way, I'm sure several of us could think back to our first post on here and shudder slightly! It's worth sticking around. There's lot's of great people lurking around willing to help.

I just started out in the electrical field and this thread has definitely taught me a lot.. never considered that testing had to be done before making alterations but it makes sense. Becoming good at testing will definitely prove useful in the long run.

 

[mainline]

No they were not reversed I checked my connections like I said. I also used my socket tester before I left which shows if all cables are in the correct terminals

I doubt your socket tester will see N - E reversal.

It could also in the right circumstances account for a light when switched on to trip a rcd.

 

[Josh555]

.

 

[mainline]

Damn this is getting interesting, I'm waiting for his continuity, IR, Zs and RCD readings using the new x1 AC test now amendment 2 has been published. I also can't wait to find out if the 'client' gets his minor works cert. More importantly, did it get fixed and what the problem was

I didn't know that there is a new x1 AC RCD test ? How does that work compared to the old one ?.

 

[timhoward]

I didn't know that there is a new x1 AC RCD test ? How does that work compared to the old one ?.

In short, just omit the x5 tests.
I still test at x 1/2 for both waveforms as I want to know it’s not overly sensitive and then the required x1 on both waveforms.

Now Auto mode is less useful i tend to test all of them at 1/2 and then all of them at x1 to avoid fiddling with the tester too much.

 

[goasis]

In short, just omit the x5 tests.
I still test at x 1/2 for both waveforms as I want to know it’s not overly sensitive and then the required x1 on both waveforms.

Now Auto mode is less useful i tend to test all of them at 1/2 and then all of them at x1 to avoid fiddling with the tester too much.

I think it's still a requirement to ensure they dont trip at 50%

 

[Lister1987]

In short, just omit the x5 tests.
I still test at x 1/2 for both waveforms as I want to know it’s not overly sensitive and then the required x1 on both waveforms.

Now Auto mode is less useful i tend to test all of them at 1/2 and then all of them at x1 to avoid fiddling with the tester too much.

Worth remembering that 7671 is a minimum, if you want to carry on using auto and doing 0.5x 1x 5x and Ramp then there is nothing stopping you.

The cynic will say that the 'new' testing regime may be "better" but then we remember that OEMs are on JPEL64 and would favour the reduced testing as it would result in fewer returns

 

[timhoward]

Worth remembering that 7671 is a minimum, if you want to carry on using auto and doing 0.5x 1x 5x and Ramp then there is nothing stopping you.

Agreed, and circumstances dictate what's worth doing.
Ramp tests are certainly useful for lots of situations.
But even under the old regime if a modern RCBO tripped at under 40ms on the x1 test then increasing the current for a x5 test is never going to slow it down and IMHO it was a pretty pointless test in a lot of cases.