Am I being too fussy?

[MattyKHZ]

When I started looking I was all set up to go with a company who was offering 250W Sanyo x 16 and 4000TL for £12,000. 10 year insurance backed warranty and 25 year on inverter. Fixings were K2.

The issue I had was they were pushing for an install with scaffolding going up on the day I came out of hospital from an operation and a very quick install. Tech survey was to be done on the day which I felt was odd as I felt if something wasn't on the van install would take place with whatever they had available.

A local Sanyo Premium installer quoted around the same time and told me about the K2 fixings for 35mm rafters, 3 man team with roofer, electrician etc. And the £500 premium seemed worth it. I felt I needed a new CU and wanted the Wylex PV CU with built in meter. The CU is in a cloakroom and felt that I did not want loads of boxes and stuff. I also decided on the Solar Edge Inverter and 12 year warranty. Provided all details etc and was told they would look into it.

Get told they are still trying (yet others are getting them from CAS) and that they had a 4000 TL reserved just in case. Then it was can't get and Sunnyboy it is. Invoice is for same price as Solar Edge system which I query as that had a premium. Then told extra is for CU yet I told them at start I wanted this so would have thought it wa sin Solar Edge quote. So query why CU cost works out to be same as Solar Edge system difference and this then gets reduced.

Today install takes place and not K2 fixings (was told they were ordered and secure) and some are adjustable some aren't and they will get them in the 35mm rafters at some kind of screw angle. When I asked about CU they will not use Wylex and instead will be Crabtree with seperate meter.

I was sold on their knowledge. To me it makes sense that german houses are different to UK ones so fixings like the K2 for 35mm rafters was a selling point. Solar Edge and its benefits/warranty were also a benefit as I feel was the Wylex CU.

It seems I have to be happy I am getting a Sanyo panel install and 4000TL. They even just quoted Sunnyboy on Invoice where as I felt if teh panels are quoted by make and model so should teh inverter as just as important.

And also it seems tiles have to be slight raised where cable and bracket are at the bottom. I have flat interlocking tiles and it seems these are not the usual (2007 build house). I thought they were supposed to be ground own slightly so did not sit proud????

 

[dansk]

I don't think your being "too fussy" from what your saying it seems they have squeezed you in but are struggling like the rest of us, the mounting sounds a bit not quite right, and CAS are hard to get hold of, so maybe there is some truth in that.

The problem you seem to have is you have your heart set on a solar edge, but ended up with something different, ok it's a good inverter, but I'm the same, when I want a madras and get served a korma I'm ok, but it's not what I wanted.

 

[WRDEnergy]

Your not being fussy as you should get what you want as the customer. I am fairly new to the PV side of things myself but I have been doing the domestic install side for a while now.

Sanyo panels are as far as im aware the best at the moment, although you do pay quite a bit more for just a few % more efficency.

in regards to the inverter I dont think you would need to pay the full wack for a 4000TL on a 4kw system, seems stupid I know but keep in mind that the inverter will never produce the full 4kw (maybe on really nice clear day in summer) but we are not getting that often. on the city and guilds course I recently finished they said that around 80% is all you would need so for 4kw 3200 inverter would be more ideal the reason for this is that inverters are far more efficent the closer they are to their max load.... now as you will not get the most out of your pannels most of the year you are going to be running very low on the potenal of your inverter so around 80% allows it to run at a higher efficiency thought out the year making it overall more benifical than going for a 4000 inverer as your basically saying its going to be perfect conditions all day everyday to cover it and in the UK its not.

I checked the sunny boy software for you on the 250w sanyo panels and they reccomend using a SB3800/V 0153 at a 98% nominal power ratio SB3300 @ 96% SB 3300-11 @ 96% but these are expected to have a lower than expected yield they also reccomened a SB 3000TL-20 for a higher yield but only at 80% nominal power ratio all sounds confusing I know and it is to me aswell, LOL but the way I understand it is that you would be better using a SB 3800 rather than the 4000 or maybe even think of using another company and maybe get a 3600 or something.

maybe someone with more experience and expand on what I have said and I know you didnt ask this question but just thought it might be of some help.

Thanks

William

 

[MattyKHZ]

Don't think I really have any options as scaffolding is up, Inverter and rails situated but was "sold" the system/service by the company and told certain things and they do not seem to be the same now it is being installed.

I wanted the best performing system for the money and if the Solar Edge was more efficient, better with its optimisers etc that is why I suggested it. I guess I cannot force an installer to use something they have not before but was told they would try and get it and did not. Just like I should have been told when the scaffolders were coming rather than them just turn up when I was at work and my wife was coming home from a night shift.

I am sure the 4000TL and Sanyo 4KW system will perform OK especially as I am south facing. But they are just 2 pieces of kit and it is the install, methodology used, neatness etc which are things that are individual to the installer and I was hoping for a neat install and all in one CU.

Fear I may not get either but where do you stand when there is this rush on and deadline to meet.

 

[powervan]

all i can say is U WILL RECOUP UR MONEY !! £12000 ok price!! sanyo sma all good! wylex not all that great! hard to read! get it fitted and watch the money roll in!!

 

[moggy1968]

£12000 is cheap for a 16 panel sanyo installation. Something has to give. labour is the next most expensive thing. what appears to me is the install has been rushed to come it at the price they needed to get the order. If you have plain tiles there is no reason for them to sit up. If you have pantiles the nibs should be ground down so they sit better, but that takes time and time is money.
It is a good example of why cheapest isn't always best. You should have been kept informed of what was going on, given options and told the reasons why things needed to be changed.

have you signed a variation of contract? it is a requirement of a contract that changes to that contract must be any agreed, in writing. You will still do well with asouth facing Sanyo install, but it's not what was agreed,

 

[MattyKHZ]

I am actually paying £12,800. I chose a more expensive company based on the promises and impression they gave and they all seem to be false. Could/should have gone with the £12000 quote. At least it would have saved money. And they had the Solar Edge they could have sold me for £500 extra.

I am not an electrician so do not know what can and can't be done. I was originally told meter cabinet could have meter in if required but told no today, has to be by CU. So I will have a cloakroom full of electrical boxes. I could live with the CU that is already there, cost too much to move. Now seperate meter etc.

Having a new kitchen next year which will involve electrics so feel I should just drop the build down to the standard one and forget the new CU and get someone else to do that who can do it as I want. Guess the only trouble then is if I changed the meter ie got the Wylex with it included would cause problems.

If I had known I would have sourced Wylex CU with meter enclosed myself.

 

[Earthstore]

The system they have supplied you is good quality, if the install is of a high standard, it will all be fine.
I understand your concern, and yes you are right, in normal circumstances a supplier should not change the spec, however, these are not normal circumstances.
Over the last month, companies have been fitting anything they can get there hands on, cheap Chinese inverters, mounting systems that have never been heard of, panels, well don't even ask.
So you have to make a choice, either have the good quality kit that your installation company has offered, or nothing at all.
Sorry to sound direct, but I know which I would choose.
Hope this helps
Earthstore Energy

 

[moggy1968]

We are competitive on our pricing, but wouldn't be anywhere near £12000 on that job. But thats no excuse. You agree a price for a job and thats the job you do. If things need to change (as unfortunately has been the case for a lot of people over the last month) then you should be informed of those changes to ensure you agree with them.

£12800 is a significant investment on your part and your installer should respect that and behave accordingly.

Do ask!! the current situation does not give installers carte blanche to install what they like without asking customers first if they agree!!

The current situation is being used by some as an excuse to behave in an appaling way. All my customers have had quality branded panels and inverters, depite the fact that as a small company we have to but as we go along.

 

[powervan]

cancel ! its ur right if its not what u want!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! put ur xmas lights up before scaffold comes down bonus!! ive had hassle getting kit!!! ive drove miles to get it!! jobs takeing 4/5 days due to lack of gear!! i suggest u GRAB it and be GRATEFULL or dont let them in and REGRET it???????????????

 

[SRE]

Unfortunately even the best of installers are having problems and when you get a Sanyo system at that price then there's even more of an issue, there's very little slack in the margin to allow for the cost of having someone in the office chasing orders all day, ringing you to let you know what's happening, changing your paperwork etc etc.

If it's cheaper (we'd be charging at least £1500 more than you're paying) it's usually because the costs have been cut somewhere and at times like this, that's when the cracks start to show, not your fault but an unfortunate result of a sloppy government decision.

You have 2 choices as I see it, accept the changes understanding the pressures that are on the industry at the minute or cancel the order and regret not taking this golden opportunity. You'll never again get the chance to buy a Sanyo system at that price with the 43p tariff - the last 2 months have been the golden era of solar. Cheapest prices and highest tariff.

 

[dansk]

it doesnt have to look untidy, this is was a downstairs inverter job of mine and i dont think its too bad.

 

[Noddy67]

I'd be happy with the subs. they're not short changing you on the panels or inverter. it's a great FiT rate at the moment so I wouldn't let it slip away because they could have tried subbing any old tat. In my opinion.

 

[sharpener]

I am not an electrician so do not know what can and can't be done. I was originally told meter cabinet could have meter in if required but told no today, has to be by CU. So I will have a cloakroom full of electrical boxes. I could live with the CU that is already there, cost too much to move. Now seperate meter etc.

Having a new kitchen next year which will involve electrics so feel I should just drop the build down to the standard one and forget the new CU and get someone else to do that who can do it as I want. Guess the only trouble then is if I changed the meter ie got the Wylex with it included would cause problems.

If I had known I would have sourced Wylex CU with meter enclosed myself.

From what you say you can do without the Wylex integrated CU for now (and should get a price reduction), get someone else to tidy up the job when you get the kitchen electrics done. There must be a procedure for changing a "broken" generation meter and notifying this to your electricity purchaser (I expect it will have to be done by an MCS certified electrician but come 2012 I dare say they will have all gone back to replacing CUs anyway...)

Funnily enough I wanted an SB 4000TL so I could upgrade with the Sunny Home Manager kit next year but was told there weren't any! At least you will be able to do that, or use the multifunction relay to control your immersion heater (see other threads) Am due to get a StecaGrid next week, have just spent a happy evening configuring a wireless ethernet extender box so it will be able to communicate with my ADSL router from the loft.

 

[MattyKHZ]

We have a Gledhill Boilermate (some sort of thermal store) instead of an immersion heater so not sure if the control you mention is the same.

I am happy with the products, did not go for the cheapest and went with then one that gave me the best impression at time of survey. Just feel everything I was told is incorrect, and as it is our home which we have had numerous problems with before this, am upset that people promise you one thing and deliver another.

I will just go with a vanilla install now and get the meter changed for a Wylex all in one CU at my own expense later. I am not paying any extra for CU work when it is not the one I outlined. Had I of known, I would have supplied that and the Solar Edge inverter myself. To be told they were looking at it I feel some things have not been bothered with. All information was given a month ago.

My cheapest quote was like for like but with insurance backed 10 year warranty and an alleged 20 year inverter warranty. That was something that appealed but the sales process was not as good as the company I chose. So went with the best salesperson rather than best company but you do not know this at the time.

I am awaiting daylight now so will get some 300mm lens snaps of the roof, tiles and fixings as it currently is and post them up later.

 

[MattyKHZ]

Also forgot to add:

At time of survey when I questioned warranties and the inverter as I believe this to be the part most likely to fail I was told not to bother with an extended warranty as SMA would replade a faulty one out of warranty for £300 anyway.

The installer even thinks this is not correct which again angers me that I am told one thing to put pen to paper and another after signing up.

 

[MattyKHZ]

And one last thing.

At time of survey was told I can stipulate generation metere location. They even looked in the meter cabinet and said it could go in there. I would keep the CU work if generation meter was in the meter cabinet as then would only have one box on wall of cloakroom like I now have.

Is it not possible to fit meter in the meter cabinet or is installer doing what is best for them rather than what is best for the customer?

 

[SolarCity]

It depends what you mean by 'meter cabinet'. If it is the DNO's own then you can't fit it there, unfortunately.

Regarding your install: Your price, as others have pointed out, is very cheap. We are also very competitive but couldn't get near that.

You are getting a great install but it isn't the one you wanted. To be honest, a lot of people are in the same boat. When you say "I would have sourced the Solar Edge myself", I don't think you realise just how crazy the market has been in the last month. It is very, VERY hard to deal with suppliers that you already have a long relationship with. It is harder still to deal with a new supplier. I reckon that trying to source equipment as a non-MCS member of the public would have been on the other side of impossible.

Your installer should have been more upfront with you. We have had problem for the last 3 months or so trying to secure stock. We have had to return to customers and offer them alternative solutions. Luckily this meant that most of these customers ended up with an even better system - by substituting Suntech panels for Linuo panels.

 

[MattyKHZ]

Meter cabinet is on the side of the house (new build from 2007) so not sure who exactly owns the cabinet. I would have thought the householder rather than DNO as they did not put it there.

When I was getting quotes circa £12500 was the going price for my Sanyo install based on 16 (or even 17) Sanyo 240W or 16 of the 250W. All with 4000TL's. Had some around £15000 and one at £23000 who would then refund 10% and then the VAT.

I guess some do it on price and a small margin and others kept prices the same as panel prices dropped. Early Nov there was a £500 decrease in the price from the previous month from one installer.

Any way I am off to work now seeing as been awake since 3:30. Too dark to take any photos so I will wait to hear what day 2 of the install brings from my wife who is supervising today.

 

[MattyKHZ]

House before solar panels showing tile type.

 

[Earthstore]

The meter box on the outside of the house is the property of the electric company. You are not allowed to fit you own products in there.
You are responsible from the consumer unit (including) on-wards.
Hope this helps
Earthstore Energy

 

[MorganPVI]

Sounds like a lack of communication from the installer, lets also be frank that the margin on this job will be tiny. Sorry to be blunt, but you usually get excatly what you pay for.

I'm sure it will turn out alright in the end.

 

[JD6400]

:yesnod: !

 

[powervan]

Earthstore we supply the meter boxes on meter repositions these days ELECTRIC BOARD dont so who owns it then?

 

[Earthstore]

As far as I am aware, the electric company owns the "Board" or "Box" irrespective of who supplied it or who fitted it. I may be wrong and I am sure that an expert will put us straight?
What you do from the tails on wards is your/the house holders responsibility.
I have friends who work for SSE, I will inquire so we can confirm.
It's the same if you have a substation on your land, that is the property of the DNO.

Hope this helps
Earthstore

 

[powervan]

what about on the roof))

 

[solarsavings]

I bought the meter box on my new build so as far as I'm concerned I own it. I was never asked or agreed to pass ownership of it to anyone else.

 

[Earthstore]

Just obtained some clarification on this.
All that should be installed within the box is equipment belonging to the Electricity companies. IE mains fuse, meter, and isolation switch.
It is not "good practice" to fit your own equipment in the box, even if you bought it.
Hope this helps
Earthstore

 

[powervan]

lol here here solar savings i have put main switches in then for say garage supplies where board is impractical to get to (me being lazy realy) never had probs!!! i no if u want to do something like that u should put your own box next to it ! SHOULD do and what u DO DO is diff thingand yes if ive PAYED for it its mine! the electric company just borrowing it to keep THERE equiptment DRY )))) lol

 

[MorganPVI]

Sometimes you have to install in the box.

 

[JulianC]

Sometimes you have to install in the box.

True dat. On a recent job the main CU was in the meter box I shoved the gen meter in there and everything else hung on the wall outside.

 

[Earthstore]

Don't shoot the messenger, it was only advice that came from the SSE.
However, here is a question, when the DNO or energy provider come to a house to change a meter or upgrade the system and they find it not possible because it is full of consumer units, generation meters etc etc, and they have just been installed by an electrician, who will have to pay to have them relocated?
As mentioned before, what is "good practice", the easiest way or the right way?

 

[powervan]

lol well just to make u rest easy earthstore when I put my equiptment in there i ALWAYS make sure plenty of room left!! UNLESS they EVER start putting in EXPORT meters?? then it may be fun! never seen one yet? has anyone?

 

[MattyKHZ]

My house was so poorly built that it actually had 3 meter boxes and I asked why. 1 was gas, 1 elec and 1 empty. So they removed the third which I could have possibly used now for generation meter.

Install was finished by 4pm yesterday and that was without commissioning a new CU as went with the usual 2 way CU, isolator and largish generation meter.

They went to get a Crabtree from their supplier in the morning and could not get the one they wanted so it would only have left 1 spare for my new kitchen so glad I did not pay the £300 extra for a CU that was not what I wanted.

12.5 KW generated today. Now just got to wait on my MCS certificate before I can send FIT forms off.

I believe I need a new MCS certificate if I change meter (that is what I have been told) so come new kitchen time I will have to get a MCS registered electrician to fit and commision the Wylex CU with inbuilt meter I guess. Hopefully there will still be a few about.

 

[SRE]

Are you sure you've generated 12.5kw today - that's huge for a December day.

 

[MorganPVI]

I doubt any system hit more than 4kwh today. 3.76kwp in N Wilts did 3.3kw.

Sounds like the meter had 9kw on it already!! Maybe they wired it backwards!! (twice)!!

 

[MattyKHZ]

Meter was 0.2 this morning and now 12.6 so is that 12.4 KW generated?

Dead on South facing in Tamworth.

 

[powervan]

if i was u i would STIC with that meter even if it takes up more space ! u be able to forget the kitchen and put an exstention on at that rate!!

 

[Sunshine777]

Managed 8 kWh today and thought that was doing well - 12 is nothing to sneeze at!

 

[JD6400]

I have got to admit i am with Earthstore on this one , in my opinion it is unacceptable to install in the cut out box .:frown2:
I think we all agree it is not best practise to do so , and as far as i can remember i always thought the dno could kick up a fuss and demand it be moved ?:53:

 

[powervan]

u lot be staying at home this summer just to watch ur meters spin!!!!!!!!!!!WARNING!!!!!!!DIVORCE!!!!she will be having the 43.3p for next 25yrs !!!! get it booked !!!!

 

[Sunshine777]

Nah, she'll be demanding the index-linked FIT for 25 years and tough luck if it ever gets cut; it'll be back to court to renegotiate!

 

[jupestar]

'The 4000tl is the dog ******** of inverters, so if you got that you got a great deal. Roofing, well i need to see photo's, should be sitting flat, otherwise it is a sloppy job.. Customer service? - our is non-existent.

 

[SRE]

Meter was 0.2 this morning and now 12.6 so is that 12.4 KW generated?

Dead on South facing in Tamworth.

Consider yourself very lucky then, excellent panels and inverter at a give away price producing 12kwh on a December day - most peeps would give their eye teeth for that. At that rate you'll be able to buy a dozen CU of your choice and gold plate them!

Just to give you a comparison we're 300ish miles North of you and haven't seen anything past 3kwh/day for the last 2 weeks and most days were between 1.5 - 2.

 

[SolarCity]

12.4kWh is huge and very unlikely at this time of the year.

Like SRE said, as far as the panels and inverter, you have a superb system at a, frankly, stupidly low price.