Different Testing Courses

[jones750]

Hi all,

I have my NVQ level 3, City and guilds 2330 and have been installing fire alarms through out my apprenticeship. Unfortunately the company i was working for went bump and i was out of the electrical game for about a year. I am starting at a new firm as a trainee engineer and they want me to get some sort of testing qualification, they understand i have not done a lot of testing but as it is a trainee position they are not to miverd about my experience.

the question is, all the works that need testing will be new install. The items needed to be tested will be light fittings, 3 phase motors, gas burners and pressure switches.

I have looked at the 2394 as this is suitable for the new installtions but i was wondering if there are any more specific courses aimed at what i will be testing.

sorry its long and thanks for answers.

Cheers guys

 

[D Skelton]

Start with your 2394, this is for initial verification, then go for your 2395 which is for periodic inspection and testing. You could do them seperately or together, doing them together will often work out cheaper and if you use a local college this will only set you back about £800 - £900 for them both.

 

[Engineer54]

If the company is paying for this training, then it's a complete no-brainer to sign-up for the complete 2394/95 which will then supposedly be equivalent to the older 2391.

If they are not paying, and took you on knowing your limitations as far as experience etc is concerned, they shouldn't be expecting you to fund this training out of your own pocket for the companies benefit...

 

[D Skelton]

If the company is paying for this training, then it's a complete no-brainer to sign-up for the complete 2394/95 which will then supposedly be equivalent to the older 2391.

There's no supposedly about it. It is equivalent to the 2391.

 

[jones750]

The company is paying so I will put it too them, thanks for the advice. The company is a small company so I dont think they will put me through the 2395 as all the works that will be tested will be new installations.

 

[D Skelton]

If they won't then offer to stump up the extra £150 to do the 2395. It's pointless having one without the other. If you don't then you'll have to shell out £600 to do the 2395 at some point in the future.

 

[PEG]

Fully agree with the above. Think not only of the here and now,think of YOUR future in the industry,and how many doors you want to open... personally speaking,the quals i have had the best advantage from,are the ones that i deliberated,whinged and spent on when other things looked more fun...ask them to fund the job,and,if they delay,sort it yourself. It will ALWAYS benefit you.

 

[Engineer54]

There's no supposedly about it. It is equivalent to the 2391.

Is it i don't know ?? What i do know is that i've never come across, or know of a single Successful C&G course that had been changed, to equal that of which it was replacing, let alone bettering!!

So if you're right, it'll be a first!! lol!!

 

[D Skelton]

I've offered on plenty of occasions to send you past papers from both to compare but you ignore me every time. I'm not having a go but the whole 'the new ones aint as good as the old ones' thing is getting tiresome now. IMHO the 2357 as a core qualification outshines the 2330 for example as more has been added into the syllabus! And although a rip off, I personally think the new T&I quals are slightly harder than the old. That said, it is the opinion of many that the 2330 was a dumbed down version of the old 2360. In reality, the problem has never been the actual qualifications or the things that they teach you, their structure will always change slightly, it is the way they are taught that has changed. The curriculam has devolved to cater for all rather than being selective, and in a lot of cases now, you'll find people dragged through qualifications who 20 years ago wouldn't have even made it through the first sift of college applications.

The industry is being devalued, that is something which we both wholeheartedly agree on, but it's not the qualifications that are the problem (forgetting the DI courses for a moment), it is the manner in which they are taught.

You still need the same level of knowledge to pass the 2394 and 2395 together as you did the 2391, the national average pass percentage hasn't changed either. All that has changed in reality is that it has become more expensive and there are now slightly shorter, but more assessments of equal difficulty to complete.

 

[Engineer54]

I've offered on plenty of occasions to send you past papers from both to compare but you ignore me every time. I'm not having a go but the whole 'the new ones aint as good as the old ones' thing is getting tiresome now. IMHO the 2357 as a core qualification outshines the 2330 for example as more has been added into the syllabus! And although a rip off, I personally think the new T&I quals are slightly harder than the old. That said, it is the opinion of many that the 2330 was a dumbed down version of the old 2360. In reality, the problem has never been the actual qualifications or the things that they teach you, their structure will always change slightly, it is the way they are taught that has changed. The curriculam has devolved to cater for all rather than being selective, and in a lot of cases now, you'll find people dragged through qualifications who 20 years ago wouldn't have even made it through the first sift of college applications.

The industry is being devalued, that is something which we both wholeheartedly agree on, but it's not the qualifications that are the problem (forgetting the DI courses for a moment), it is the manner in which they are taught.

You still need the same level of knowledge to pass the 2394 and 2395 together as you did the 2391, the national average pass percentage hasn't changed either. All that has changed in reality is that it has become more expensive and there are now slightly shorter, but more assessments of equal difficulty to complete.

First off, i was under the impression that 2365 Lv 3 is the replacement for 2330 Lv 3, so how come we now have two replacement qualification courses (eg 2357). These C&G numbers just get's more and more confusing, as far as i'm concerned.

Tiresome to you it maybe, but please don't try and compare courses and exam papers of latter years, (especially when for arguments sake, i was taking mine) with present day courses and exams, there is just no comparison at all. No multiple choice questions in my day. No individual credits numbers making up your final pass credit number. Every question, required a full and detailed answer, and where calculation was needed you needed to show those calculations, they actually formed part of exam point score. You had to ''know the answers'' to a questions in those days or you failed... Final exams covered the whole course, that was in those days, 3 to 4 years in most cases, Not just what you had learnt in the last six weeks or whatever with this new ''Credit'' based system.... Oh, and early on, NO Calculators allowed into the exam room, and it goes without question, that there was no such thing as an ''Open Book'' exam!!

Yes i agree that many of todays students shouldn't even be on a Lv 3 course, and probably why the courses themselves are being numbed down as well as the exams... Dragging those people through exams serves little purpose, if they don't fully understand what they are doing and why!! If anything, adds to the general dumbing down of the industry as a whole.

I'll still maintain, that ''if'' (and i hope that it is) the 2394/95 is equal to that of the 2391, it'll be a ''First'' for a very long time for the C&G institute. It's a crying shame that the old and established C&G institute has elected to follow the money train instead of keeping to the technical training and certification excellence that it once stood for...

Sorry if i have ignored your offer or offers, perhaps i misunderstood that you were serious!! ...lol!!
You can by all means send me exam papers to compare, (might even use them with the students i'm mentoring at the moment from the local college here) PM me, and i'll send you my email address.

 

[D Skelton]

First off, i was under the impression that 2365 Lv 3 is the replacement for 2330 Lv 3, so how come we now have two replacement qualification courses (eg 2357). These C&G numbers just get's more and more confusing, as far as i'm concerned.

Sorry, you're right. The 2365 makes up the knowledge units of the 2357 which is the equivalent of the old 2330 and 2356 combined.

Tiresome to you it maybe, but please don't try and compare courses and exam papers of latter years, (especially when for arguments sake, i was taking mine) with present day courses and exams, there is just no comparison at all.

Of course there is a comparison, we are all taught the same thing. Like I said, it is not the qualifications that have changed, it is the way they are taught. I suppose also it is the way they are assessed to a small degree.

No multiple choice questions in my day.

Multiple choice are additional to written exams now, not replacements.

No individual credits numbers making up your final pass credit number.

Not quite sure what you mean here, you do your exams at the end of year two and at the end of year three? Same as always right?

Every question, required a full and detailed answer, and where calculation was needed you needed to show those calculations, they actually formed part of exam point score.

Exactly the same now.

You had to ''know the answers'' to a questions in those days or you failed

It's the same now, the only difference is that you get an infinite amount of chances to re-sit if you fail instead of one.

Final exams covered the whole course, that was in those days

They do now too.

Oh, and early on, NO Calculators allowed into the exam room

Makes no difference to me, we're not sitting maths exams, we're sitting electrical exams. Who cares if you're using a calculator to add a few numbers up or a piece of paper?

and it goes without question, that there was no such thing as an ''Open Book'' exam!!

No such thing now either, the only open book C&G exam I can think of is the 2382.

Yes i agree that many of todays students shouldn't even be on a Lv 3 course, and probably why the courses themselves are being numbed down as well as the exams... Dragging those people through exams serves little purpose, if they don't fully understand what they are doing and why!! If anything, adds to the general dumbing down of the industry as a whole.

I'll still maintain, that ''if'' (and i hope that it is) the 2394/95 is equal to that of the 2391, it'll be a ''First'' for a very long time for the C&G institute.

Well it is, I assure you, so give it a rest. Anyway, is it really a first? I'm looking through the project content for the new 2396 and it sure as hell looks more in depth than the old 2391-20!

It's a crying shame that the old and established C&G institute has elected to follow the money train instead of keeping to the technical training and certification excellence that it once stood for...

Welcome to capitalist Britain!

Sorry if i have ignored your offer or offers, perhaps i misunderstood that you were serious!! ...lol!!
You can by all means send me exam papers to compare, (might even use them with the students i'm mentoring at the moment from the local college here) PM me, and i'll send you my email address.

Will do

 

[Engineer54]

Sorry, you're right. The 2365 makes up the knowledge units of the 2357 which is the equivalent of the old 2330 and 2356 combined.

So whats the difference between the 2365/NVQ L3 and the 2357/NVQ L3?? I genuinely can't make out the difference between them!!

Of course there is a comparison, we are all taught the same thing. Like I said, it is not the qualifications that have changed, it is the way they are taught. I suppose also it is the way they are assessed to a small degree.

Sorry, but there just isn't, apart from anything else the content and depth has changed beyond all recognition...


Multiple choice are additional to written exams now, not replacements.

Additional?? Or do you mean replacing the number of written exam questions??


Not quite sure what you mean here, you do your exams at the end of year two and at the end of year three? Same as always right?

Think you'll find most C&G core exams are based around credit tests for each section with the total amount of credits making up a pass requirement Final exam content as we know them, are nothing like today. not from what has been explained to me anyway...


Exactly the same now.

Maybe, i hope so!!


It's the same now, the only difference is that you get an infinite amount of chances to re-sit if you fail instead of one.

Something like the Nappit 2391 exam then, ....can't fail?? And that's an improvement?? lol!!


They do now too.

I don't think they do, again not from what i've been told by relatively recent students...


Makes no difference to me, we're not sitting maths exams, we're sitting electrical exams. Who cares if you're using a calculator to add a few numbers up or a piece of paper?

Rubbish, ...If you're crap at Maths, you are not going to get very far with electrical calculations, it's not just a bit of adding up and subtraction...


No such thing now either, the only open book C&G exam I can think of is the 2382

There are a few C&G exams out there that have ''Open Book'' elements as well as closed book elements.


Well it is, I assure you, so give it a rest. Anyway, is it really a first? I'm looking through the project content for the new 2396 and it sure as hell looks more in depth than the old 2391-20!

I'll give it a rest as you put it, when i'm convinced!! As for the 2396, a Lv 4 it aint!! lol!! How anyone can compare a 2 year HNC course with a 60 day supplementary electricians course is beyond me...

Welcome to capitalist Britain!

Can't get any more Capitalist than China, ...believe me!! ...lol!!



Will do

It would be great to put this to the test, having new students that have completed their college electrical courses, and instead of sitting current finals, they sit those of 30/40 years ago, under the same conditions. I am confident the pass rate would be devastating for most of those present day students!!

 

[D Skelton]

It would be great to put this to the test, having new students that have completed their college electrical courses, and instead of sitting current finals, they sit those of 30/40 years ago, under the same conditions. I am confident the pass rate would be devastating for most of those present day students!!

This has got more to do with the fact that any old chump can sign up to an electrical qual now and get dragged through it! Years ago you had to be at a certain level of maths and english before you could even start and even then, if your attendance was crap or you were simply struggling to grasp electrical concepts you started failing exams and were told to go on your merry way!

Like I said, the course content hasn't changed much, it is the curriculum that has changed. I count myself lucky as in my final year I had a bloody excellent tutor who really knew his stuff! The stuff I learned at college won't be far different from the stuff you learned. Give me the same final exams you had and I'm 100% confident I'd pass it with flying colours!

With regards to the calculator thing, it makes no odds whether you work a sum out on paper or elecronically, as long as you know the structure of the calculation and how to manipulate figures in order to achieve results (transposition, rounding up/down, trigonometry etc...) then what does it matter. If you're crap at maths it isn't going to make one jot of difference if you can use a calculator, coz you're not going to understand the processes in the first place!

It isn't the method you use to add the numbers up that is important, it is knowing why you are doing so.

With regards to the multiple choice exams, I think when I did my qualification I did about four or five? I still did a zillion written assessments though!! About three or four for each unit and then another three or four final exams which covered everything.

The difference between the 2365 and the 2357 is only that the 2357 is made up of the 2365, the NVQ3 and the AM2. In short, the 2365 is PART OF the 2357, which is an all encompassing qualification. Before you had the 2330, the 2356 NVQ3 and the AM2, all seperate quals. Now you have the 2357, one qual which includes everything all in one number.

 

[happysteve]

It would be great to put this to the test, having new students that have completed their college electrical courses, and instead of sitting current finals, they sit those of 30/40 years ago, under the same conditions. I am confident the pass rate would be devastating for most of those present day students!!

You're on.

I'll be finishing my 2365 level 3 come September/October. Send me a 2330 (or summat even older) exam then and I'll give it a crack. (I'm not your typical student, mind - but I'll give an honest perspective on it, as I've nowt to prove either way).

 

[Engineer54]

Why would you think i still have exam papers from 40 years ago?? I can't even remember the last time i laid eyes on any of my C&G qualifications, which also included maintenance biased equivalents of 2360, though i can't recall the relevant numbers. I think i have around 7 or 8 C&G qualifications all told, of one type or another. lol!!

Funnily enough i've been talking to our Mechanical Engineer yesterday, about this very thing.... He is of the same or similar opinion as myself, in that the quality and standards of all standard and higher education has fallen over the years. He pointed out, the number of school GCSE passes get higher every year, and it has nothing to do with improved education, but rather the lowering of pass standards...

So you think you would pass an older based exam with flying colours, ...interesting!! I think you may struggle with the flying colours bit and maybe even attaining the pass mark criteria, still i admire your confidence!! lol!! I beg to differ, calculators can make a BIG difference to the outcome of any math based trade exam.

Think it was 1999 that all the higher educational qualifications were subject to major changes, not to better them but to make them easier to attain. Not sure if that included trade qualifications such as C&G, but it did include the ONC/D -HNC/D courses and the various B Tech courses. Since that time, many of the engineering subject qualifications, carry less weight than those attained prior to 1999. Professional Institutes like ITE and CIBSE want more from a Eng/Bsc Degree in the way of distinctions etc and no longer allow past equivalents, to post 1999 qualifications for consideration as part of C Eng enrollment.


I'll stick with and by what i wholeheartedly believe, and that is the standards of college electrical education and C&G courses in this day and age, are woefully lacking those of 30/40 years ago, end of. Hell, as my colleague pointed out yesterday, every man and his dog is aware of the yearly exam pass scam in the UK...

 

[D Skelton]

I think you may struggle with the flying colours bit and maybe even attaining the pass mark criteria

Why, coz I'm that crap?!

If they were that hard mate no one would be an electrician! You make it out like you had to have the credentials of a rocket scientist?! lol

 

[spark 68]

Ha ha get your Log tables (logarithms) and your sliderule out, lol

And no, I don't know how to use a sliderule, but I can just remember logarithms.

 

[D Skelton]

I beg to differ, calculators can make a BIG difference to the outcome of any math based trade exam.

I bet they can, but does it really matter in the real world whether an electrician works out a sum on paper or by calculator???

Does it f**k!

 

[Engineer54]

Oh dear, have i upset you?? lol!!

Nope, all i'm saying is that standards are not the same now, as they were in the past, and i stand by that 100% as being fact!! You could say exactly the same about school exams of that time. Using your analogy, no-one would have left school with say 6 to 9 A levels, but they did, and again in those days it was GCE's, not the watered down GCSE's or whatever they are called!!

 

[D Skelton]

Oh dear, have i upset you?? lol!!

Nope, all i'm saying is that standards are not the same now, as they were in the past, and i stand by that 100% as being fact!! You could say exactly the same about school exams of that time. Using your analogy, no-one would have left school with say 6 to 9 A levels, but they did, and again in those days it was GCE's, not the watered down GCSE's or whatever they are called!!

Not at all, and I completely agree with your statement.

Like I keep saying though, it isn't the content of those courses that change, it is the curriculum as a whole. Anyone who wants to apply themselves can be just as educated now as they could have been 20 years ago. You can sit there all you want on your high horse looking down at all the younger sparks, but there are some, not as many as in your day for sure, but some, that are just as educated as you were at their age.

One day you'll have retired and a younger spark will have taken your place, and guess what... the chances are they'll be doing your job just as well as you did. The world moves on my friend... From paper to calculators.

You wanna make the newer quals 'as good' as the old ones? There's no need to change the content, all you have to do is change the entry criteria and the pass marks. Is the standard of spark in general worse nowadays than 20 years ago? Yes, unequivocally! Is the standard of good spark nowadays worse than the standard of good spark 20 years ago? No, not in the slightest!

 

[Engineer54]

I bet they can, but does it really matter in the real world whether an electrician works out a sum on paper or by calculator???

Does it f**k!

Well no matter what you think, it took years to allow calculators into an exam room. So it must of mattered, and to have been seen to make a difference to those that make the rules!! It certainly cuts down time spent in calculating long hand on paper!!

 

[D Skelton]

Well no matter what you think, it took years to allow calculators into an exam room. So it must of mattered, and to have been seen to make a difference to those that make the rules!!

It's called 'old habits die hard' mate. Nothing more. You wanna learn to be a mathematician? Learn the sums on paper. You wanna be an electrician? Learn why we need the sums we need, and then work them out however you bloody well like! Makes sod all difference.

It certainly cuts down time spent in calculating long hand on paper!!

And here we get to the crux of the matter; time. That is all. I can add, subtract, multiply and divide on calculator and on paper, does that make me any better at maths than someone who can only use a calculator to do those sums? No. If I choose however to stick with paper, because I can, and they use a calculator, who is now more effective at maths? Them.

Pencil and paper got replaced by the computer a few years back. Get over it mate lol

 

[Badged01]

... standards are not the same now, as they were in the past, and i stand by that 100% as being fact!!

Totally agree 100% from my experience!

When I did my engineering degree at Manchester University in the early 80's I was sponsored full-time, studied full-time and worked my pants off to ensure I got it. I wasnt partying hard as my future employment depended upon it. Although not the sharpest knife in the draw I got my degree which was "exam" based and hard work to achieve. You knew your stuff or you didn't -- but it wasn't a 1st, those were reserved for the really gifted students!

Wind on 20 yrs and I'm again back at university. This time I'm studying part-time (in my own time) whilst balancing work, outside life, paying a mortgage, raising a family etc ... I'm struggling so I deliberately do the bare minimum work to get thro' : if it says a minimum of 1,000 words they get 1,000 words, if they recommend 10 hrs study I spend 8 hrs!! I do the exam and expect to really scrape thro' with the lowest pass mark -- what, I get a distinction!! And I know for a fact my brain power hadn't increased from my earlier university days.

Wind on a couple of more years and I'm now recruiting/selecting then next generation of high flying engineers to lead the business forward. Got a 1st class degree from an 'established' university then your foots in the door to be considered for an interview, anything less wasn't acceptable! (Screening the candidates it seemed everyone had a 1st or 2:1 class degree from whatever "university" they attended.) What became crucial now was not the educational standard, everyone had the same so you couldn't differentiate on that alone, but what they did outside 'education'!.

So yes, from my personal experience I do believe standards in education have gone down ..... but in this politically correct society where everyone has to suceed and no-one can fail what should we expect?

 

[Badged01]

Well no matter what you think, it took years to allow calculators into an exam room. So it must of mattered, and to have been seen to make a difference to those that make the rules!! It certainly cuts down time spent in calculating long hand on paper!!

I loved it when they allowed calculators to be used -- big "brick" things back in the 70's but I didn't like using the slide ruler!

 

[Badged01]

Well no matter what you think, it took years to allow calculators into an exam room. So it must of mattered, and to have been seen to make a difference to those that make the rules!! It certainly cuts down time spent in calculating long hand on paper!!

I loved it when they allowed calculators to be used -- big "brick" things back in the 70's but I didn't like using the slide ruler!

 

[Badged01]

.... You wanna learn to be a mathematician? Learn the sums on paper. You wanna be an electrician? Learn why we need the sums we need, and then work them out however you bloody well like! Makes sod all difference.

Fair enough point!

 

[Engineer54]

Totally agree 100% from my experience!

When I did my engineering degree at Manchester University in the early 80's I was sponsored full-time, studied full-time and worked my pants off to ensure I got it. I wasnt partying hard as my future employment depended upon it. Although not the sharpest knife in the draw I got my degree which was "exam" based and hard work to achieve. You knew your stuff or you didn't -- but it wasn't a 1st, those were reserved for the really gifted students!

Wind on 20 yrs and I'm again back at university. This time I'm studying part-time (in my own time) whilst balancing work, outside life, paying a mortgage, raising a family etc ... I'm struggling so I deliberately do the bare minimum work to get thro' : if it says a minimum of 1,000 words they get 1,000 words, if they recommend 10 hrs study I spend 8 hrs!! I do the exam and expect to really scrape thro' with the lowest pass mark -- what, I get a distinction!! And I know for a fact my brain power hadn't increased from my earlier university days.

Wind on a couple of more years and I'm now recruiting/selecting then next generation of high flying engineers to lead the business forward. Got a 1st class degree from an 'established' university then your foots in the door to be considered for an interview, anything less wasn't acceptable! (Screening the candidates it seemed everyone had a 1st or 2:1 class degree from whatever "university" they attended.) What became crucial now was not the educational standard, everyone had the same so you couldn't differentiate on that alone, but what they did outside 'education'!.

So yes, from my personal experience I do believe standards in education have gone down ..... but in this politically correct society where everyone has to suceed and no-one can fail what should we expect?

I too had all of my trade & engineering education sponsored by my original indentured employer, a little over 7 years of it in total. But in those days, it was mostly the employers that paid for higher education courses of it's work force, rather than the now more common students themselves.

Well, i know exactly what you're talking about here, as would anyone else of those era's. Now if you know things changed that much in 20 years, what do you think the changes are like after 30,40 years??? Now try and convince Mr Skelton, things have changed significantlyin ALL things educational!! lol!!!

 

[wozz]

You still need the same level of knowledge to pass the 2394 and 2395 together as you did the 2391, the national average pass percentage hasn't changed either. All that has changed in reality is that it has become more expensive and there are now slightly shorter, but more assessments of equal difficulty to complete.

How do you find this sort of thing out? I always thought the 2391 had low pass rate and knew quite a few who took a few attempts or who gave up. On the other hand I don't know anyone who has failed the latter. I know that means nothing was just after some stats to compare if that info is avaliable.

 

[Engineer54]

It's called 'old habits die hard' mate. Nothing more. You wanna learn to be a mathematician? Learn the sums on paper. You wanna be an electrician? Learn why we need the sums we need, and then work them out however you bloody well like! Makes sod all difference.

That's just pure Crud!!


And here we get to the crux of the matter; time. That is all. I can add, subtract, multiply and divide on calculator and on paper, does that make me any better at maths than someone who can only use a calculator to do those sums? No. If I choose however to stick with paper, because I can, and they use a calculator, who is now more effective at maths? Them.

Pencil and paper got replaced by the computer a few years back. Get over it mate lol

That's not far of being crud too, lol!!

And exactly how many of today's youth coming out of UK schools today, could get by without a calculator?? In my day when they were first allowed into exam rooms, they were seen as giving distinct advantage for those that used them, ...but you seem to know better.

You're going off at a tantrum that's neither here nor there, in the past there were relatively few calculators, so it was a case of being used to long hand calculating, today every man and his dog owns one.
Now i'm pretty sure i know what would happen if you took that calculator away from the vast majority of UK youth today, sitting an exam that was math biased. If the truth be known, you do too!! lol!!

Oh BTW, a Fact for you, ....They manufacture and sell more pencils pens and paper NOW, than at anytime in the past, and the numbers are still Growing!! Another Myth about the computer taking over the world!! What's a computer anyway, well at it's root core, it's a calculator!! ...lol!! So right, i've got over that one!! lol!!

 

[D Skelton]

Haha, you just can't let go can you!?

I stand 100% by what I say! Makes no difference whether or not you need a calculator or not to work out sums, just as long as you know why you are doing so then as an electrician, that's all that matters! Of course they give you an advantage, I'm not denying that, but that advantage is time!

Oh BTW, a Fact for you, ....They manufacture and sell more computers NOW, than at anytime in the past, and the numbers are still Growing!! So that kinda makes your fact irrelevant lol.

 

[Badged01]

Ding, ding round XX ........

 

[Andy78]

Blimey guys, just book a hotel room and get it over with

Just to divert slightly, what the heck is the 2392 ?

 

[D Skelton]

How do you find this sort of thing out? I always thought the 2391 had low pass rate and knew quite a few who took a few attempts or who gave up. On the other hand I don't know anyone who has failed the latter. I know that means nothing was just after some stats to compare if that info is avaliable.

By comparing national average pass marks in chief examiners reports. Also by taking both exams and seeing for yourself if they are the same or not. I have, and in my experience, I can say that the new 2394 and 2395 easily meet the standard of the old 2391.

 

[D Skelton]

Just to divert slightly, what the heck is the 2392 ?

The old level 2 initial verification certificate.

 

[Engineer54]

Haha, you just can't let go can you!?

I stand 100% by what I say! Makes no difference whether or not you need a calculator or not to work out sums, just as long as you know why you are doing so then as an electrician, that's all that matters! Of course they give you an advantage, I'm not denying that, but that advantage is time!

Oh BTW, a Fact for you, ....They manufacture and sell more computers NOW, than at anytime in the past, and the numbers are still Growing!! So that kinda makes your fact irrelevant lol.

Maybe for you and I etc, ....but i'm still not convinced when it comes to today's youth. Who i think will struggle big time without a calculator!!


NO not really, in fact not at all. It's just you altering the goal posts as you go. Or do they allow laptops or tablets into examination rooms now?? NO...?? well i guess it's your statement that's irrelavent then... lol!!

 

[Engineer54]

By comparing national average pass marks in chief examiners reports. Also by taking both exams and seeing for yourself if they are the same or not. I have, and in my experience, I can say that the new 2394 and 2395 easily meet the standard of the old 2391.

Why would anyone take an equivalent course of a qualification you already hold, ....What's the point in that?? Sorry i just can't get my head round that one at all!! Why would you not invest that not inconsiderable amount of money in a far more useful qualification such as the 2396 design & verification course??

 

[D Skelton]

Maybe for you and I etc, ....but i'm still not convinced when it comes to today's youth. Who i think will struggle big time without a calculator!!

Of course they'd struggle without a calculator, but by the same token, the youth of today would struggle without power steering in their cars! Does that make them worse drivers than those who grew up driving cars without power steering? No!

NO not really, in fact not at all. It's just you altering the goal posts as you go. Or do they allow laptops or tablets into examination rooms now?? NO...?? well i guess it's your statement that's irrelavent then... lol!!

Hang on a minute here! You weren't talking about the manufacture of paper and pencils for exam situations, you were talking about in general, and so was I, so I'm not moving the goalposts one bit! For the record, no, they don't allow laptops or tablets into exams, but they do allow word processors! So if you want to type instead of write, you have the choice!


I'll ask again; what is it about writing out a sum on paper rather than using a calculator that makes you so damn better??? The process is exactly the same!

Man writes down two numbers on piece of paper
Man squiggles down a few lines and manipulates those two numbers
Man arrives at answer


Man types down two numbers on calculator
Calculator throws a few electrons around and manipulates those two numbers
Calculator arrives at answer

 

[D Skelton]

Why would anyone take an equivalent course of a qualification you already hold, ....What's the point in that?? Sorry i just can't get my head round that one at all!! Why would you not invest that not inconsiderable amount of money in a far more useful qualification such as the 2396 design & verification course??

Because it was as near as makes no difference free for me to do so, and at some point I see myself maybe doing some sessional lecturing so having the up to date qualification might help? I only did the exams for the 2394 and 2395, not the whole course.

I have already invested my money in the 2396, I start it in April.

 

[Engineer54]

Of course they'd struggle without a calculator, but by the same token, the youth of today would struggle without power steering in their cars! Does that make them worse drivers than those who grew up driving cars without power steering? No!



Hang on a minute here! You weren't talking about the manufacture of paper and pencils for exam situations, you were talking about in general, and so was I, so I'm not moving the goalposts one bit! For the record, no, they don't allow laptops or tablets into exams, but they do allow word processors! So if you want to type instead of write, you have the choice!

I was simply replying to another of you're irrelavent statements...lol!! eg.... ''Pencil and paper got replaced by the computer a few years back. Get over it mate lol''


I'll ask again; what is it about writing out a sum on paper rather than using a calculator that makes you so damn better??? The process is exactly the same!

Jesus, how many more times, .....that's ''Fine'' if you have been taught throughout your school years to write things out on paper, ...NOT so fine when you Haven't!!!

Man writes down two numbers on piece of paper
Man squiggles down a few lines and manipulates those two numbers
Man arrives at answer


Man types down two numbers on calculator
Calculator throws a few electrons around and manipulates those two numbers
Calculator arrives at answer

The first example MAN has to think for himself, the second example MAN leaves it all to the electrons to do the thinking for him. Thanks, that explains very well what i've been saying all along!!

 

[D Skelton]

The first example MAN has to think for himself, the second example MAN leaves it all to the electrons to do the thinking for him. Thanks, that explains very well what i've been saying all along!!

No he doesn't, it's an automated process whether by brain or by calculator!

The whole point of using pencil and paper is to make the calculation easier than using your head! The same applies to a bleeding calculator! lol