UK Job quotes vs DIY Part P Notification Requirements for bathrooms

[ninemaverickbars]

Hello everyone,

I hope nobody minds that my first post is a question. We have a bit of a situation brewing at home with regards to our new shower room. We had an electrician scheduled to come as part of the bathroom installation, but he had to give backword. As the electrics are now holding up the overall project, I contacted a couple of other local pro's, who returned quotes which I found to be rather high, so I am considering doing the work myself.

The work involves replacing 3 switches, installing 3 or 4 LED downlights and drivers replacing halogen, one extractor fan off a fused spur (existing), a single shaver socket replacement and thats about it. Most of the wiring is already in place and is suitable according my what I can understand from the regs. The quotes came in at £880+VAT and £420+VAT, labour and cable only. To me, that suggests they simply didn't want the job, or am I out of touch with rates?

Can I do this myself? I have the knowledge to do it properly (I believe) but the sticking point is that it is in a "special area" according to Part P. That is to say, one of the downlights will be within 600mm of the showerhead. The fittings are IP44 rated but I plan to replace the closest fitting with an IP65/7 once I can locate a suitable matching fitting. I believe IP44 is compliant, as a minimum.

If I go ahead and do this myself, can I notify building control to get an inspection certificate or am I putting myself in a difficult position, legally speaking for when we eventually come to sell the house?

I'm not penny pinching, but the quotes seemed so extreme, that I at least have to consider the option of a DIY install. Electrical installs, along with gas, are an area of DIY where I'm extremely cautious, because if I had gaps in my knowledge, I wouldn't be aware of them.

I have another chap coming next week who's NICEIC and depending on his price he might end up doing it, but I just want to backstop the whole thing, if that makes sense.

I'd appreciate any feedback on the above if anyone has time.

Thank you.

 

[catdog1121]

Hello everyone,

I hope nobody minds that my first post is a question. We have a bit of a situation brewing at home with regards to our new shower room. We had an electrician scheduled to come as part of the bathroom installation, but he had to give backword. As the electrics are now holding up the overall project, I contacted a couple of other local pro's, who returned quotes which I found to be rather high, so I am considering doing the work myself.

The work involves replacing 3 switches, installing 3 or 4 LED downlights and drivers replacing halogen, one extractor fan off a fused spur (existing), a single shaver socket replacement and thats about it. Most of the wiring is already in place and is suitable according my what I can understand from the regs. The quotes came in at £880+VAT and £420+VAT, labour and cable only. To me, that suggests they simply didn't want the job, or am I out of touch with rates?

Can I do this myself? I have the knowledge to do it properly (I believe) but the sticking point is that it is in a "special area" according to Part P. That is to say, one of the downlights will be within 600mm of the showerhead. The fittings are IP44 rated but I plan to replace the closest fitting with an IP65/7 once I can locate a suitable matching fitting. I believe IP44 is compliant, as a minimum.

If I go ahead and do this myself, can I notify building control to get an inspection certificate or am I putting myself in a difficult position, legally speaking for when we eventually come to sell the house?

I'm not penny pinching, but the quotes seemed so extreme, that I at least have to consider the option of a DIY install. Electrical installs, along with gas, are an area of DIY where I'm extremely cautious, because if I had gaps in my knowledge, I wouldn't be aware of them.

I have another chap coming next week who's NICEIC and depending on his price he might end up doing it, but I just want to backstop the whole thing, if that makes sense.

I'd appreciate any feedback on the above if anyone has time.

Thank you.

Its impossible to know if the quotes given are reasonable as it would depend on the scope of the work and the area you are in.. £420+VAT does not seem unreasonable, it will likely take multiple visits...

If the work required building regs certifications, this can be done through the council, my council charges £450 for the privilege, which will put your quotes into perspective.. However electrics just like gas can kill, especially in a bathroom so it is wise to get a professional..

You could try looking for more one man band type electricians that are not VAT registered, running an electrical business with potentially multiple electricians is very expensive, one man band types tend to have lower overheads so along with not having to pay VAT it will likely be cheaper. £70 +VAT per hour for VAT registered companies is probably about the average £40-£45 per hour for one man band is about average..

Cost of tools, insurance, van, fuel and materials have all sky rocketed in the last year or so.. I don't think its a case of they don't want the work I think it just reflects these costs..

 

[ninemaverickbars]

Its impossible to know if the quotes given are reasonable as it would depend on the scope of the work and the area you are in.. £420+VAT does not seem unreasonable, it will likely take multiple visits...

If the work required building regs certifications, this can be done through the council, my council charges £450 for the privilege, which will put your quotes into perspective.. However electrics just like gas can kill, especially in a bathroom so it is wise to get a professional..

You could try looking for more one man band type electricians that are not VAT registered, running an electrical business with potentially multiple electricians is very expensive, one man band types tend to have lower overheads so along with not having to pay VAT it will likely be cheaper. £70 +VAT per hour for VAT registered companies is probably about the average £40-£45 per hour for one man band is about average..

Cost of tools, insurance, van, fuel and materials have all sky rocketed in the last year or so.. I don't think its a case of they don't want the work I think it just reflects these costs..

Thanks for your reply. I forgot to say, we did specify that the work would be taken to 1st fix only in terms of scope so I'm not sure why it would require multiple days of work? All the people approached were one man bands rather than larger companies. Area is semi rural north of England, not a rich area, just normal working class folks like me.

I thought I had defined the scope of works in my original post. If I may ask, is there anything I'm missing in terms of detailing the job from an electricians point of view? It would be useful to know in terms of assessing the quotes we have received.

Certainly feeling the cost increases in the past year too, so that I can very much appreciate.

 

[philectrical]

Hello everyone,

I hope nobody minds that my first post is a question. We have a bit of a situation brewing at home with regards to our new shower room. We had an electrician scheduled to come as part of the bathroom installation, but he had to give backword. As the electrics are now holding up the overall project, I contacted a couple of other local pro's, who returned quotes which I found to be rather high, so I am considering doing the work myself.

The work involves replacing 3 switches, installing 3 or 4 LED downlights and drivers replacing halogen, one extractor fan off a fused spur (existing), a single shaver socket replacement and thats about it. Most of the wiring is already in place and is suitable according my what I can understand from the regs. The quotes came in at £880+VAT and £420+VAT, labour and cable only. To me, that suggests they simply didn't want the job, or am I out of touch with rates?

Can I do this myself? I have the knowledge to do it properly (I believe) but the sticking point is that it is in a "special area" according to Part P. That is to say, one of the downlights will be within 600mm of the showerhead. The fittings are IP44 rated but I plan to replace the closest fitting with an IP65/7 once I can locate a suitable matching fitting. I believe IP44 is compliant, as a minimum.

If I go ahead and do this myself, can I notify building control to get an inspection certificate or am I putting myself in a difficult position, legally speaking for when we eventually come to sell the house?

I'm not penny pinching, but the quotes seemed so extreme, that I at least have to consider the option of a DIY install. Electrical installs, along with gas, are an area of DIY where I'm extremely cautious, because if I had gaps in my knowledge, I wouldn't be aware of them.

I have another chap coming next week who's NICEIC and depending on his price he might end up doing it, but I just want to backstop the whole thing, if that makes sense.

I'd appreciate any feedback on the above if anyone has time.

Thank you.

There's nothing stopping you from notifying building control and then doing the work yourself.

Sounds like a days work if new cable has to be pulled and it's hard to give true figures without seeing how difficult the layout is/how accessible the wiring might be, but bare in mind you're likely looking at £250-400 a day for a qualified electrician and £80-200 per day for a mate, it's about right price-wise.

I asked for two local 'Mr Clear-It' man and tipper companies to quote me last week to remove 5 kitchen units, 6 meters of worktop and 8 kitchen unit doors from my front garden and I had two quotes of £295+VAT and £195+VAT. It took me 3 hours to clear it into my estate and take it to the local tip on my own, lobbing it into a flatbed would have taken me literally 10 minutes.

The last time my wife got her hair cut, it cost me £180 and she was only in there an hour.

Just bare in mind electricians are highly qualified and it costs a lot of money and takes a lot of training to get the knowledge, experience and equipment necessary to carry out the job. A good electrician is worth what he charges.

 

[ninemaverickbars]

Just bare in mind electricians are highly qualified and it costs a lot of money and takes a lot of training to get the knowledge, experience and equipment necessary to carry out the job. A good electrician is worth what he charges.

I understand. I truly do. Operating costs nowadays are extremely high and it has to be reflected in the rates charged. Insurance alone, as a chartered professional myself (non electrical obviously), I think I paid out somewhere in the region of £6k this year. It's not chicken feed anymore, if it ever was.

Your wifes hair at £180, well, that just makes me want to buy you a pint!

All the wiring is completely exposed. We're at 1st fix, so open studwork, no plasterboard, theres no chasing to be done, nothing complicated at all and all manufacturer supplied kit. 2nd fix we would take care of ourselves.

I'll look into building control notification options, appreciate the tip.

I'm not entirely sure I understand the purpose of Part P at all, either the work is compliant or it isn't, surely? It's not something I've really dealt with before, but I noticed a lot of plumbers seem to have it.

 

[DPG]

£180 for a haircut?!?! Is that a typo?

 

[philectrical]

£180 for a haircut?!?! Is that a typo?

Cut dye and blow dry...it's a dear do being a woman.

 

[philectrical]

I understand. I truly do. Operating costs nowadays are extremely high and it has to be reflected in the rates charged. Insurance alone, as a chartered professional myself (non electrical obviously), I think I paid out somewhere in the region of £6k this year. It's not chicken feed anymore, if it ever was.

Your wifes hair at £180, well, that just makes me want to buy you a pint!

All the wiring is completely exposed. We're at 1st fix, so open studwork, no plasterboard, theres no chasing to be done, nothing complicated at all and all manufacturer supplied kit. 2nd fix we would take care of ourselves.

I'll look into building control notification options, appreciate the tip.

I'm not entirely sure I understand the purpose of Part P at all, either the work is compliant or it isn't, surely? It's not something I've really dealt with before, but I noticed a lot of plumbers seem to have it.

Ok if it's all open and you just want cables putting in then it's half a days work.

Bare in mind though that any spark worth his salt will do some testing too so that adds to the cost, and it looks like you want around 9 points doing, and a lot of people charge per point. Can be anywhere from £30-£75 per point on average from what i've seen so those prices you were quoted seem about right.

It's looks dear for what it is i agree but when you break it down it's not actually that bad.

The problem with electrics is it looks like not much has changed and so people can't understand why it costs so much.

You can put a hole in the wall for an extension, or get some kitchen units put in, or your central heating to start working again, it's a tangible difference and people don't mind paying for it. With electric though, everything 'looks like it works' and then you change a consumer unit or swap some lights out and you just have what you had before on the surface of it and so people complain about the cost!

I will probably go against the grain on here and say there's nothing difficult about what you want to do and you could easily do it yourself if you do your research prior and do some thorough swatting up on the science and principles behind circuits and the big do's and don'ts. However i would still get someone in to test before you work, because things might not be what they seem electrically with the existing circuitry.

Remember though that if you want to go 'by the book' you'll have to notify building control and that'll be another huge fee on top which makes doing it yourself economically unviable. Just better to get a spark in to do it.

 

[Midwest]

I'm not running my business any more, as I couldn't make enough money to exist.

I did mainly kitchens and bathrooms. I think my quotes to do bathrooms, which was typically a few lights, extractor fan etc was about £400-500, including materials. You quote for £420 + vat, labour only is quite reasonable IMO.

I wasn't vat registered, as said try someone who isn't.

Apart from working for nothing, one of the other reasons I packed in, was the nightmare messes I had to clean up, was diy bodges, that you typically find in pervious kitchen & bathroom refurbs, no offence meant.

Just spent the last two weekends decorating my kitchen & utility room. Son said, why not use his painter next time, pay a few hundred quid, and enjoy the weekend sun. He has a point.

 

[timhoward]

I'll get shot... but anyway...
Is there currently a bath or shower in the room?
Would everything that needs to be done come under the heading of modifying an existing circuit?

 

[UNG]

All the wiring is completely exposed. We're at 1st fix, so open studwork, no plasterboard, theres no chasing to be done, nothing complicated at all and all manufacturer supplied kit. 2nd fix we would take care of ourselves.

IMO you have just detailed why your job is attracting high quotes

With regard to second fixing yourself how do you intend to carry out final testing and certification once the second fix is complete

I'll look into building control notification options, appreciate the tip.

I think you will have to as no electrician is going to do the 1st fix and certify the complete job

I'm not entirely sure I understand the purpose of Part P at all, either the work is compliant or it isn't, surely? It's not something I've really dealt with before, but I noticed a lot of plumbers seem to have it.

There are various thoughts behind what Part P is about but that is a different debate.
Compliant work will usually include testing and certification of the completed work as you only want an electrician to carry out the first part of the work then as you are completing the 2nd fix the final testing is down to you
It is not very often you come across jobs like this it is more usual to find a DIY 1st fix and then get an electrician in to complete the 2nd fix, testing, certification and notification

 

[ninemaverickbars]

Hi all.

Thank you for the detailed and informative responses.

I've spent the afternoon tracing wires and trying to identify how the circuits are arranged. Having taken the floor boards up, it's like spaghetti junction up there. Nothing has been clipped up, no labelling, just a real mess.

On top of that, when looking at the current fused spur, whoever installed it didn't even bother to secure the common live and had put it in L1 leaving COM empty. As I removed the backbox, the live popped out. A closer look at the screw suggests it was never secured. Potentially dangerous I'd think? That alone has put me off, as I've no idea what else might be lurking up there.

We also have a wire coming up from below along the party wall, which we can't identify at all. Can't be a good thing.

I'm not going to do this. Half the battle is knowing when you're out of your depth.

This afternoon wasn't a total waste of time as the floor boards are now up and everything properly exposed, so the electrician will have a much clearer picture of what needs doing.

 

[DPG]

Hi all.

Thank you for the detailed and informative responses.

I've spent the afternoon tracing wires and trying to identify how the circuits are arranged. Having taken the floor boards up, it's like spaghetti junction up there. Nothing has been clipped up, no labelling, just a real mess.

On top of that, when looking at the current fused spur, whoever installed it didn't even bother to secure the common live and had put it in L1 leaving COM empty. As I removed the backbox, the live popped out. A closer look at the screw suggests it was never secured. Potentially dangerous I'd think? That alone has put me off, as I've no idea what else might be lurking up there.

We also have a wire coming up from below along the party wall, which we can't identify at all. Can't be a good thing.

I'm not going to do this. Half the battle is knowing when you're out of your depth.

This afternoon wasn't a total waste of time as the floor boards are now up and everything properly exposed, so the electrician will have a much clearer picture of what needs doing.

I think you have made the right decision. Keep us posted with how you get on.

 

[philectrical]

I think you have made the right decision. Keep us posted with how you get on.

Yeah i think it's a nice refreshing change to see OP admit his limitations. I'm a 'have a go' hero too, but sometimes you just have to get a pro in. I remember trying to fix my powersteering pump and i just couldn't get one of the fittings off and after fannying about for about 2 days reading forums, asking questions etc i just gave in and called a mobile mechanic. 45 quid and 20 minutes later the pump was fitted lol.

 

[ninemaverickbars]

I hope you dont mind me asking another question, but it just occurred to me, as it stands now one of the upstairs lighting circuits isn't working because a switch has been removed on the lighting ring during demolition. The split is just terminated at each side with Wago spring lever connectors at the moment.

Before the electrician visits, I'd like to reconnect that so we can see what we are doing without using torches.

Could I ask what is the correct way to permanently connect twin core and earth together? I was going to use a 10amp choc box (6A MCB). Assuming this is screwed down and out of the way, is this suitable?

Pulling a completely new cable would be a major upheaval so if we can join, it would be a relief.

Thanks again and yes, knowing ones own limitations is important and electricals aren't suitable for mucking about with, in my view.

 

[philectrical]

I hope you dont mind me asking another question, but it just occurred to me, as it stands now one of the upstairs lighting circuits isn't working because a switch has been removed on the lighting ring during demolition. The split is just terminated at each side with Wago spring lever connectors at the moment.

Before the electrician visits, I'd like to reconnect that so we can see what we are doing without using torches.

Could I ask what is the correct way to permanently connect twin core and earth together? I was going to use a 10amp choc box (6A MCB). Assuming this is screwed down and out of the way, is this suitable?

Pulling a completely new cable would be a major upheaval so if we can join, it would be a relief.

Thanks again and yes, knowing ones own limitations is important and electricals aren't suitable for mucking about with, in my view.

I'm not sure how the cable has been left from your description, but to connect wire you can use 'wago' connectors with a sealed wago junction box.

All the separate colours go together in their own separate wagos, so one wago with the earths, one with the neutrals, one with the lives, put them inside the box, fix the box to something and seal closed.

You can get away with just the wagos but you shouldn't technically do this. If the connection is going to be permanent just buy the wago box it's like 2 quid.

Just an fyi, lights aren't in rings they are radials.

 

[telectrix]

mate of mine, also a forum member is in Leeds. NICEIC approved and he would give you an honest, sensible quote. pm me and i'll pass his number on.

 

[ninemaverickbars]

mate of mine, also a forum member is in Leeds. NICEIC approved and he would give you an honest, sensible quote. pm me and i'll pass his number on.

Thank you @telectrix , I will do pending outcome of tomorrows visit.

@philectrical Cheers for the advice. It's all sorted and yes, radials, makes sense. More like a tree structure and less like a circle (sockets)?

I've spent the afternoon on more research and removed a circuit I put in 15 years ago as a young lad. Evidently I didn't have any earth sleeving at the time, so glad thats come out too. I'd used electricians tape to wrap the earth.

As a side note, we also solved the mystery of why electric toothbrushes would never charge properly in the bathroom. Turns out the bloody extractor fan and shaver socket were fused together on a 3a spur. As theres a velux, we rarely used the fan...lol

 

[ninemaverickbars]

Ok if it's all open and you just want cables putting in then it's half a days work.

Bare in mind though that any spark worth his salt will do some testing too so that adds to the cost, and it looks like you want around 9 points doing, and a lot of people charge per point. Can be anywhere from £30-£75 per point on average from what i've seen so those prices you were quoted seem about right.

It's looks dear for what it is i agree but when you break it down it's not actually that bad.

The problem with electrics is it looks like not much has changed and so people can't understand why it costs so much.

You can put a hole in the wall for an extension, or get some kitchen units put in, or your central heating to start working again, it's a tangible difference and people don't mind paying for it. With electric though, everything 'looks like it works' and then you change a consumer unit or swap some lights out and you just have what you had before on the surface of it and so people complain about the cost!

I will probably go against the grain on here and say there's nothing difficult about what you want to do and you could easily do it yourself if you do your research prior and do some thorough swatting up on the science and principles behind circuits and the big do's and don'ts. However i would still get someone in to test before you work, because things might not be what they seem electrically with the existing circuitry.

Remember though that if you want to go 'by the book' you'll have to notify building control and that'll be another huge fee on top which makes doing it yourself economically unviable. Just better to get a spark in to do it.

Can I ask what you mean by an individual "point". Does this mean for example, a 1 way 1 gang switch, single socket, or would a single "point" encompass say, a 3 gang switch?

I have no problem at all with paying for skilled electricians but yes, its in some cases invisible work so I can see why some people might grumble. I was a computer network administrator for a lot of years, which was similarly invisible to the end user.

I saw the building control fee's, which are quite high. To be honest, I might just get some training and end up doing part P myself just for personal use, especially since work can probably be persuaded to pay for it. Wouldn't make me competant on its own, I realise. Two or three LABC fees and it's not far off paid for itself. Plus, it's very interesting stuff, although I think I'm a bit long in the tooth to be going for full registration.

 

[nicebutdim]

I saw the building control fee's, which are quite high. To be honest, I might just get some training and end up doing part P myself just for personal use, especially since work can probably be persuaded to pay for it. Wouldn't make me competant on its own, I realise. Two or three LABC fees and it's not far off paid for itself. Plus, it's very interesting stuff, although I think I'm a bit long in the tooth to be going for full registration.

No amount of training or certification will get around the issue of notification. Electricians face the same fees and either pay LABC directly or join a scheme such as NICEIC or Napit, through whom they can issue required notification.

 

[philectrical]

Can I ask what you mean by an individual "point". Does this mean for example, a 1 way 1 gang switch, single socket, or would a single "point" encompass say, a 3 gang switch?

For me, each individual operating point is a point. So a 3 gang switch would be 3 points since they have to have 3 wires. 2 way switches would be 2 points even if they only operate the one light for example.

I saw the building control fee's, which are quite high. To be honest, I might just get some training and end up doing part P myself just for personal use, especially since work can probably be persuaded to pay for it. Wouldn't make me competant on its own, I realise. Two or three LABC fees and it's not far off paid for itself. Plus, it's very interesting stuff, although I think I'm a bit long in the tooth to be going for full registration.

You can't really 'do part p'. Part P is just building regs and there's no course designed to become electrically competent and 'Part P qualified'. Some courses claim 'get Part P qualified' but they're scams. You won't be able to self certify after taking any 'Part P' course - you can only self certify if under a CPS scheme and they only let you on with 2 years experience (post qualifications) now if i recall correctly.

 

[ninemaverickbars]

No amount of training or certification will get around the issue of notification. Electricians face the same fees and either pay LABC directly or join a scheme such as NICEIC or Napit, through whom they can issue required notification.

So the electrician who quoted us £420 was facing fee's of around £250 from LABC? Have I understood correctly?

 

[ninemaverickbars]

For me, each individual operating point is a point. So a 3 gang switch would be 3 points since they have to have 3 wires. 2 way switches would be 2 points even if they only operate the one light for example.

You can't really 'do part p'. Part P is just building regs and there's no course designed to become electrically competent and 'Part P qualified'. Some courses claim 'get Part P qualified' but they're scams. You won't be able to self certify after taking any 'Part P' course - you can only self certify if under a CPS scheme and they only let you on with 2 years experience (post qualifications) now if i recall correctly.

The chap who was originally going to do the work was a plumber (who has part P we were told) working for a main contractor. I'm confused as to how that would be possible given what you've said, but the main contractor is reputable.

I feel like I'm missing a piece of the puzzle, which isn't unusual, at least according to my wife.

 

[SJD]

Notification fee via a scheme (NICEIC, NAPIT) is just a few £, but there are annual membership fees of circa £600 to be able to do this.

Direct notification via LABC is often quite costly (many £ hundreds), as generally they want to discourage this. In some cases, set as high as they dare in the hope nobody goes down that route.

 

[nicebutdim]

So the electrician who quoted us £420 was facing fee's of around £250 from LABC? Have I understood correctly?

See below

Notification fee via a scheme (NICEIC, NAPIT) is just a few £, but there are annual membership fees of circa £600 to be able to do this.

Direct notification via LABC is often quite costly (many £ hundreds), as generally they want to discourage this. In some cases, set as high as they dare in the hope nobody goes down that route.

 

[ninemaverickbars]

Notification fee via a scheme (NICEIC, NAPIT) is just a few £, but there are annual membership fees of circa £600 to be able to do this.

Direct notification via LABC is often quite costly (many £ hundreds), as generally they want to discourage this. In some cases, set as high as they dare in the hope nobody goes down that route.

As far as I know, the plumber wouldn't have been qualified to notify via NICEIC or NAPIT. Don't they require apprenticeship training or similar? I'm dragging this thread quite a bit off topic now to be fair, so I'll go off and do some research.

Now I might have a bit of a moan directed towards the ether

If the direct notification fee's are so inflated, no wonder we see so much property at work (construction/development) that isn't certified. To be quite honest, even my own house, a build from 2005 by Ben Bailey, absolutely doesn't comply with building regs in multiple areas and would certainly fail LABC inspection. It was probably done under type approval and is shoddy, to say the least. Actually, I'm being kind, the standard of build is so outrageously poor.

As one example, as part of this project, after taking down a plasterboard ceiling we found a roof joist without a hanger on one end. They had tacked the hanger up, but forgotten to install it, so there was literally a free range roof joist above our bathroom. Also, we have found huge circular holes cut through i-joist web, non reinforced notches in the i-joist flanges, ridiculous plumbing, electrical cables running diagonally behind plasterboard. The list is endless. To cap it all, the flooring turned out to be chipboard glued and nailed directly to ijoists, which, as you probably know, dear reader, have flanges made of laminated wood (ply), so use of glue is an absolute disaster.

As a result, I trust nothing in our house anymore and honestly believe that anything I personally do, is an upgrade on what was originally installed. I do at least know how to terminate a cable and the basic principles of continuity testing etc. I am also cautious, which is an attribute I'd expect electricians to be familiar with. lol

You guys are like gold, honestly. I really appreciate your help in understanding things. I'm sure I'll get there, one day.

 

[nicebutdim]

As one example, as part of this project, after taking down a plasterboard ceiling we found a roof joist without a hanger on one end. They had tacked the hanger up, but forgotten to install it, so there was literally a free range roof joist above our bathroom. Also, we have found huge circular holes cut through i-joist web, non reinforced notches in the i-joist flanges, ridiculous plumbing, electrical cables running diagonally behind plasterboard. The list is endless. To cap it all, the flooring turned out to be chipboard glued and nailed directly to ijoists, which, as you probably know, dear reader, have flanges made of laminated wood (ply), so use of glue is an absolute disaster.

As a result, I trust nothing in our house anymore and honestly believe that anything I personally do, is an upgrade on what was originally installed. I do at least know how to terminate a cable and the basic principles of continuity testing etc. I am also cautious, which is an attribute I'd expect electricians to be familiar with. lol

Unfortunately, nothing seems particularly unusual about the above

 

[philectrical]

The chap who was originally going to do the work was a plumber (who has part P we were told) working for a main contractor. I'm confused as to how that would be possible given what you've said, but the main contractor is reputable.

I feel like I'm missing a piece of the puzzle, which isn't unusual, at least according to my wife.

There is no 'part p' that you can have that will allow you to notify. There's the C&G 2393-10 which is a building regs qualification but it doesn't mean the guy is competent, doesn't mean he's trained, and doesn't allow him to notify without paying building control. The likelihood is he wasn't going to notify at all.

Proper qualified electricians who have every single qualification and have done an apprenticeship (easily encapsulating the building regs and 'part p') aren't even allowed to notify. You can only notify without paying the big building control fee if you're part of a scheme.

 

[philectrical]

As far as I know, the plumber wouldn't have been qualified to notify via NICEIC or NAPIT. Don't they require apprenticeship training or similar? I'm dragging this thread quite a bit off topic now to be fair, so I'll go off and do some research.

Before September last year anyone who'd done a 6 week course and gotten their Level 3 was being accepted onto the schemes. Basically you could have gone to a training provider, coughed up around £5k, done a 6 week course with no prior knowledge and then straight out to join the scheme. The rules, i believe, have just changed to make it a lot harder to join. No more 'domestic installer' course graduates are eligible to join the schemes, as far as i'm aware. However it may be the case that those who did a domestic installer course and are already registered might be able to carry on their membership.

If the direct notification fee's are so inflated, no wonder we see so much property at work (construction/development) that isn't certified. To be quite honest, even my own house, a build from 2005 by Ben Bailey, absolutely doesn't comply with building regs in multiple areas and would certainly fail LABC inspection. It was probably done under type approval and is shoddy, to say the least. Actually, I'm being kind, the standard of build is so outrageously poor.

That's just new builds for you i'm afraid. The electrics are always done by qualified people but they are lashed in because the money is either crap or they're on a price and wanting to get as much in as possible as quickly as possible.

It's also the case that the firms building these places want them to pass inspection so will often hide defects so building control will give them the paperwork on time. They're under huge pressure to deliver and get clients into the houses on time. The overall standard of workmanship from every trade on new builds is appalling and that's putting it mildly. I know because i grew up labouring on them and then advanced onto doing the snagging for them. We're talking pots put under taps behind bath panels to catch leaks instead of fixing them. We're talking gluing sinks down with just clear silicone without the clips because it's quicker. We're talking roof strapping not fixed down. We're talking guttering where only half the clips are actually screwed home. Appalling.

As one example, as part of this project, after taking down a plasterboard ceiling we found a roof joist without a hanger on one end. They had tacked the hanger up, but forgotten to install it, so there was literally a free range roof joist above our bathroom. Also, we have found huge circular holes cut through i-joist web, non reinforced notches in the i-joist flanges, ridiculous plumbing, electrical cables running diagonally behind plasterboard. The list is endless. To cap it all, the flooring turned out to be chipboard glued and nailed directly to ijoists, which, as you probably know, dear reader, have flanges made of laminated wood (ply), so use of glue is an absolute disaster.

Sounds normal.

As a result, I trust nothing in our house anymore and honestly believe that anything I personally do, is an upgrade on what was originally installed. I do at least know how to terminate a cable and the basic principles of continuity testing etc. I am also cautious, which is an attribute I'd expect electricians to be familiar with. lol

You guys are like gold, honestly. I really appreciate your help in understanding things. I'm sure I'll get there, one day.

I'm all for guys wanting to learn and i'm not so heavily leaning on the side of 'you must get a spark in for everything' like some. At the end of the day it's not difficult work, it's very easy to ensure you're doing a safe job but some stuff does come only with experience.

Wiring up a circuit isn't hard, and it's not inherently dangerous if you follow a few basic principles. A lot of stuff against the regs isn't inherently dangerous, it's just against regs. There's a difference.

If you do want to learn i'd say the first thing is, get a voltage and continuity tester, one with prongs, and use it on every single circuit you are going to touch even if the consumer unit is off at the mains. I have a friend who put his hand behind a board and grabbed a cable and got a belt because it was an old feed from elsewhere.

The main problem you'll have is if you're modifying circuits you really need to know what the circuit is already doing before you can modify it. Sometimes it'll look like part of a ring but it might be a spur.

Take my kitchen for example. It was on a 32a breaker, two legs into the breaker, all neutrals present. Only had 3 sockets in the kitchen, two doubles and one single. Pull the fronts off, and every socket had one cable to it. Luckily i could pull floors up because i was remodelling and it turns out they'd put both legs to a junction box and just spur'd off for each socket and essentially just run 2x 2.5mm cable to an arbitrary place and then run radials from that, completely pointless. I wouldn't have been able to add several sockets more to any of the sockets.

Little things like that.

 

[Markyd]

The chap who was originally going to do the work was a plumber (who has part P we were told) working for a main contractor. I'm confused as to how that would be possible given what you've said, but the main contractor is reputable.

I feel like I'm missing a piece of the puzzle, which isn't unusual, at least according to my wife.

A plumber?....would you ask a sparky to fit a new boiler? ....£420 for that job you should bite his hand off

 

[timhoward]

Before September last year anyone who'd done a 6 week course and gotten their Level 3 was being accepted onto the schemes. Basically you could have gone to a training provider, coughed up around £5k, done a 6 week course with no prior knowledge and then straight out to join the scheme

It was even worse than that, bs7671 18th edition exam and two years experience and you were in as a DI.

The rules, i believe, have just changed to make it a lot harder to join. No more 'domestic installer' course graduates are eligible to join the schemes, as far as i'm aware. However it may be the case that those who did a domestic installer course and are already registered might be able to carry on their membership.

Yes, now even some decent sparks can’t get in very easily if they have long standing experience as opposed to bits of paper. Once in you can stay in.

The whole thing is nuts, particularly given most customers don’t even know they need the vague and almost useless bit of paper that we spend hundreds each year to have the ability to issue.

 

[OnlQQker]

£180 for a haircut?!?! Is that a typo?

Cut dye and blow dry...it's a dear do being a woman.

I'll do it for £1.80

My petrol leaf blower will have it dry in a couple of seconds!

 

[ninemaverickbars]

Just to update this thread since you were all so helpful.

We were left up the creek without a paddle as unfortunately the electrician we had coming fell ill and couldn't come for at least another week. I considered contacting the chap from the forum as suggested, but we were going to end up putting the bathroom fitters off for a 3rd time if we did so.

In the end, we decided to remove the shaver socket from the installation and stick to items that I believe all fall outside of Part P notification requirements. Also, we were replacing items rather than creating new circuits, unless I've misunderstood the meaning of a "new circuit".

I did as suggested and purchased a voltage and continuity tester as well as a voltage detection pen type device, both made by Fluke.

It all works, on the suface at least, although I realise that's no guarantee it's entirely correct/safe. Having said that, I'm confident in whats been done.

During the work I found a cable which had been damaged during demolitions presumably and the bare earth was visible, so that was a good find.

I was thinking about putting up a separate thread about the work performed and asking for feedback, but not sure if this is allowed but surely you all enjoy a good chuckle?

Thanks again everyone.

 

[James]

We like pictures, be warned, you are likely to get honest an honest review!!

 

[ninemaverickbars]

We like pictures, be warned, you are likely to get honest an honest review!!

Wouldn't be much use if it wasn't! When it comes to electrics and plumbing, if I have messed up I'd rather know about it. Not a fan of fire or flooding lol. I just appreciate the feedback, I really do.

Here's the current state of my wiring. I hope I wired it correctly. The floating brown wire was awaiting connection to common live in the double switch (now done). The FCU is serving only the extractor fan (class 2) and is fused at 3amps. Flex is due to fan having flex retainers.

The double switch serves a junction box, to which is connected 3 LED drivers, 1 driver per light fitting, which are 8.7W 500mA, IP44. The second switch is for mood lighting at a later date, so is presently terminated into a debox in the loft space.

I've run brand new cable everywhere, it's all 1mm, except the flex, which annoyingly is a rather portly 1.5mm as Screwfix were out of 1mm 2 core flex. Tried to label everything up so we didnt get confused.

Like the MK stuff, but the terminal screws were super tight and they aren't particularly aesthetic. Hoping to upgrade to Hamilton at some point, budget permitting.

I'll take some more pictures when we start fixing everything down. Quite a few floating junction boxes at the moment whilst we fix the cables.

One question I did have was whether or not it would be acceptable to permanently join the supply for this lighting radial using a debox, or whether there is a better, more long term solution. The supply was simply too short for any work to be carried out so we've had to join it.

Many thanks.

 

[123]

Have to say until that photo I have never seen or come across a dry lining box installed before the plasterboard.

PS I like that you have labelled every cable. One thing on that I'd do would be to have the label inside the dry lining box so it's still there for future reference.

PPS Why flex cable for the fan?

 

[nicebutdim]

Here's the current state of my wiring. I hope I wired it correctly. The floating brown wire was awaiting connection to common live in the double switch (now done). The FCU is serving only the extractor fan (class 2) and is fused at 3amps. Flex is due to fan having flex retainers.

 

[ninemaverickbars]

Have to say until that photo I have never seen or come across a dry lining box installed before the plasterboard.

PS I like that you have labelled every cable. One thing on that I'd do would be to have the label inside the dry lining box so it's still there for future reference.

PPS Why flex cable for the fan?

In all honesty, whilst I wish I could claim I'd invented an entirely new installation technique on my first attempt. In reality it was because I hadn't a clue how long (short) to trim the cables to fit, so I thought I'd better put everything in situ to avoid problems later. It will all be taken off for boarding over the stud work but at least the cables will have found their shape, so to speak and fortunately it did fit, just, and without too much pressure on the connections.

The run to that backbox was difficult. Being on the 3rd floor (eaves), I had to take it on the underside of the paper backed insulation, which has battens. This is above the studwork top plate. It was fiddly for a first timer like me. Ended up using 25mm conduit as a precaution against studwork screws and/or later work and to avoid the cables moving outside of the permitted zones, especially the flex. All that added to this afternoons drama but I did find out that a PEX pipe cutter does a decent job on conduit.

I will move the labels yes, had them labelled for the pull through but as you say, would be useful to have them in the backbox itself, or just slightly above.

How much slack is it normal to leave? Or is that literally a case of "how long is a piece of cable"?

Flex cable for the fan because it has a round punch out on a rubber grommet as a cable entry point, then a rounded clamp further inside the termination housing (terminology?). It's not perfect. I found flex annoying to work with. All the strands, a real faff for someone as cack handed as me, especially into tiny terminals, but it being 1.5mm didnt help with the terminals clearly being designed for 1mm.

We talked at home tonight and I think we are going to rewire all the flex to the fan and LED drivers as 1mm (assuming proper cable spec), and use some little crimpy things on the ends, to effectively turn the multi strand into solid wire at the termination. If you know the name of those little bits of copper and what I need to crimp them down, I'm all ears!

 

[nicebutdim]

If you know the name of those little bits of copper and what I need to crimp them down, I'm all ears!

Decent enough set for very little money - just make sure crimps are secure.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Preciva-CP621200-Crimper-Self-adjustable-Crimping/dp/B073TZ5BBG/ref=sr_1_5?crid=LUARCBAH9DEN&keywords=preciva&qid=1649545532&sprefix=perciva%2Caps%2C422&sr=8-5