3phase industrial - clear a couple of things up?

[baldsparkies]

Just take a peek above the suspended ceilings in many shops and offices, twin and earths sprawled everywhere in many cases.Its not nice and not ideal but then,welcome to the real world.

 

[apprent10]

J.Bs = Joint boxes.

Ok thanks for the other replys, i know many many others do it, so you think its all ok to do it like that, so long as the cables are protected from any sharpe edges there may be.


cheers

 

[bugsy]

The last op that used a srew terminal JB on a job of mine got his **** kicked for 5 mins , sat on the naughty step for a week on breaks and had to tear the pages out of his pocket mk catalouge!

 

[screech]

I only use JBs on a very last resort, if the cable cant be pulled back and replaced etc.

As for 'appret10' hi-jacking my thread ( lol)...You do see almost every place with false grid ceilings with justr cables thrown above them, i dont 'think' its against any rules as long as they are protected from sharpes etc.
Somebody correct me if im wrong though!

Though i would try my best to support them the best you can, like clip them up just off the grid, on the suspended wires? Or even clip along the perimeter walls where you can??

Mark.

 

[bugsy]

I only use JBs on a very last resort, if the cable cant be pulled back and replaced etc.

As for 'appret10' hi-jacking my thread ( lol)...You do see almost every place with false grid ceilings with justr cables thrown above them, i dont 'think' its against any rules as long as they are protected from sharpes etc.
Somebody correct me if im wrong though!

Though i would try my best to support them the best you can, like clip them up just off the grid, on the suspended wires? Or even clip along the perimeter walls where you can??

Mark.

There you go then , when you've popped a few ceiling tiles and a ton of cables come down on top you
you'll get the gist of what Im saying

 

[apprent10]

Sorry screech lol. Thanks for the reply tho

Bigsy... no sorry I don't get your gist...


Thanks

 

[SparkyJoe]

Its Just looks rough as a badgers ****.

You would think he would at least have used a spot of round band and took the weight off the ceiling / tidy it up a bit

 

[Darkwood]

You cannot run cables across the ceiling grids they must be adequately supported and not by laying them on the grid, ive only come across one type of cable allowed before which had been designed to withstand the sharp edges of the grid frame.

 

[bugsy]

You cannot run cables across the ceiling grids they must be adequately supported and not by laying them on the grid, ive only come across one type of cable allowed before which had been designed to withstand the sharp edges of the grid frame.

At last1

 

[Darkwood]

Reg 522.6.5, Reg 522.8.1 to name a few would give the impression that laying cables on grid ceilings isn't acceptable as the junction points of the grid are very sharp and can lead to damage of the cable during installation or maintenance whether it be you or another trade gaining access, a nicked cable could make the whole grid live!!! as earthing the grid isn't required and any light fittings have usually got an insulation layer of paint between their earth and the grid.
Its clear your on your learning curve and open to suggestion by your company but it beggars belief they are employing this practice or intend to, unfortunately it puts you in an awkward position.

 

[uksel]

not sure i'd say this instance was against the regs, i'd struggle to say your point was debatable at best

an example i can think of (which is probably higher risk) is when running cables in metallic trunking

any 90 degree bends or jumps are much more likely to suffer snagging or damage. especially when there's plenty of cables in there and you're trying to get the lid on, very easy for them to go pop when it's all juiced up

 

[Darkwood]

not sure i'd say this instance was against the regs, i'd struggle to say your point was debatable at best

an example i can think of (which is probably higher risk) is when running cables in metallic trunking

any 90 degree bends or jumps are much more likely to suffer snagging or damage. especially when there's plenty of cables in there and you're trying to get the lid on, very easy for them to go pop when it's all juiced up

With respect that would normally come down to installation and just been careful when laying them in, also the trunking should be earthed too so limiting the chance of sitting there live!!- waiting for the first unsuspecting person to touch it, and finally anyone else accessing the trunking should be at least knowledgable if not trained unlike the ceiling grid issue where multiple trades and other persons will remove tiles and may in turn snag and damage existing cables.
Overall at the end of the day the grid is open and exposed with sharp edges and accessable to anyone whereas the trunking would be a containment to enclose and protect the cables from damage, and if sharp edges are within the trunking then remove them or file them down.

Ive been fitting trunking for years, a good quality trunking should be used and any mitred bends you make should also be of a good standard, i find a metal brush wheel in my drill a god-send when de-burring and smoothing the edges.

Also remembering the spacing factor for trunking means getting lids on shouldnt be an issue, its sounds like your working with trunking filled beyond its capacity so you need to increase its size or fit additional.

 

[uksel]

yeah fair point.

the trunking being full isn't always the issue, it can be easy for a leg to be up and the clasp on the lid catch it. Plus sometimes, your not always the one who installed the trunking or ran the cables in.

like i say, i can see your point, but i dont think it is against the regs

 

[Darkwood]

yeah fair point.

the trunking being full isn't always the issue, it can be easy for a leg to be up and the clasp on the lid catch it. Plus sometimes, your not always the one who installed the trunking or ran the cables in.

like i say, i can see your point, but i dont think it is against the regs

Regs can be read in many ways but for the ceiling grid issue i still say it deffo a no no and its from experience i talk as local councils, clark of electrical works, building control etc in 3 different districts by me all express its against regs, as mentioned before i only was allowed to run a specially designed cable on the grid which looped in and out of some grid fittings with plug and socket assemblies, think they were thorlux and the flex had a toughened sheath which resisted the sharp edges of the grid.

 

[wattsup]

if its earthed, if its wired correctly no problem...if potato fields in lincolnshire were to become live because of your stupiditity then its your fault :

 

[uksel]

Regs can be read in many ways but for the ceiling grid issue i still say it deffo a no no and its from experience i talk as local councils, clark of electrical works, building control etc in 3 different districts by me all express its against regs, as mentioned before i only was allowed to run a specially designed cable on the grid which looped in and out of some grid fittings with plug and socket assemblies, think they were thorlux and the flex had a toughened sheath which resisted the sharp edges of the grid.

i take your point, and your examples are obviously more than valid. but this can just be down to company policy.

a good company will have the policy of 'full containment' and obviously running loose cables over suspended ceiling tiles would be a no-no for standard practice. but as a working example, the flex running from a klik multi-way box to each fitting above a suspended ceiling would immediately negate this being a requirement of the regs, which is really why i find it hard to accept this as a non-compliance.

and when it comes down to a court of law and compliance with legislation, could you get raped over it??

i wouldn't have thought so - then it could also be about how good your lawyer is

 

[Darkwood]

I think we all realise that these things never enter a court room but regarding flex cables - yes ive seen them laid across a few tiles but the same rules do apply and when your company starts working on local council buildings then all these bad practices could be costly as well as loosing future contracts as the clark of electrical will inspect and demand corrective actions, its also often seen that the flex enters the modular fittings 600/600 etc through a grommet then straight into the termination block - again this is a no no as the cable must be glanded or clamped to ensure any movement dosnt act directly on the connections.
I personally suspend the cables of any circuits neatly in all round band and flex to fittings likewise, this is acceptable and quick and easy compared to tray or trunking this way in future jobs it all can be wired and 'klicked' up ready for ceiling grid to be installed and just leaving the fittings to drop in and connect after.
Running cables across the grids is in itself poor workmanship and bad practice irrespective of any regs that may or may not cover this matter.
As mentioned already building control, clark of electrical works and the likewise wont allow this in any region i know of and just because your site may not be under such scrutiny dosn't make it any the more acceptable.

 

[uksel]

again agreeing with your last comment

but the OP is in a predicament over confronting his boss regarding compliance with the regs. regardless of bad worksmanship (which we all readily agree upon), he's asked advice, and i didnt think the advice of 'it's against the regs don't do it' was solid enough to encourage his actions.

it's a tough world out there and the OP isn't considered a competant person as of yet, he is basically labour

i think let it be said this is bad practice and condone those who disagree, but... don't put yourself out of a job where the case is arguable. if you're on your own do it right, if it's under his instruction it's his problem

don't go giving yourself a 1 way ticket to the dole office for an argument that might not hold water

 

[Darkwood]

again agreeing with your last comment

but the OP is in a predicament over confronting his boss regarding compliance with the regs. regardless of bad worksmanship (which we all readily agree upon), he's asked advice, and i didnt think the advice of 'it's against the regs don't do it' was solid enough to encourage his actions.

it's a tough world out there and the OP isn't considered a competant person as of yet, he is basically labour

i think let it be said this is bad practice and condone those who disagree, but... don't put yourself out of a job where the case is arguable. if you're on your own do it right, if it's under his instruction it's his problem

don't go giving yourself a 1 way ticket to the dole office for an argument that might not hold water

Agree with you on this also did get lost in the chit chat and digressed from the original post (as is easily done) but im sure it will give him food for thought.

 

[uksel]

he's probably cacking it now, won't know which way to turn

i think the best advise anyone can give in the current economin climate is

the guy you are working for doesn't seem to be all that, come here and ask any questions you like

but... keep your head down and get your papers, they'll earn you more between now and retirement than your hurt pride for doing a **** job cos 'he said so'

you did the right thing by coming here though, which suggests you are off to a good start