7kw electric shower - 4mm2 too risky?

[Yonny24]

leave existing rod in, clean connection/s if requred. add another rod 2m away, parallel. up and get a reading.

Also the current grounding rod is very far from the main consumer box in the front garden 6 metres also from the house. Probably better to place a new one in the backyard which is just 2 meters from the main box in the kitchen.

 

[LastManOnline]

Is this an RCBO? It says in Spanish translated - 'circuit breaker - RCD'.
Thanks

View attachment 99255

That's almost certainly an rcbo.It says C16.If it was an rcd it would say "16 amps".

My electric shower is wired in 4mm (its a rented house).Its a T90 si, approx 1 kw larger than yours.The 4mm made me a little nervous at first and I checked the cable regularly for the first year or 2.The supply cable is in mint condition.I dont check it any more.
Before installing another electrode I would check first what kind of supply system you have (TNCS or TT)

 

[123]

I would be very surprised if the cables get warm to the touch after a normal length shower (3-4 minutes)

Cables only tend to get very hot to touch after a good while of constant overload

I take it you have no girlfriend/wife or any daughters then?

To be fair in my own home or on holiday I'm in shower a damn sight longer than 3 minutes too.

 

[Yonny24]

I take it you have no girlfriend/wife or any daughters then?

To be fair in my own home or on holiday I'm in shower a damn sight longer than 3 minutes too.

My misses will spend 15-20 mins and 12 Yr old so the same or more if he has his music playing
Currently we have those Spanish style water heaters (calefon). 1500w element in a 60 ltr tank that hangs on the wall. So inefficient as when you are using the hot water cold water enters the tank at the same time.
As an expat I miss the power showers, no limits and instant hot water.
Wife is always asking is there hot water? When we moved I brought the Triton shower with us in the container but never installed it.

 

[marconi]

Top guy Telectrix who knows his onions - ask him about zones etcetera in bathrooms.

It is a good idea to have some small holes in the cover over the earth rod so that rain water can pass through and keep the ground underneath moist. This is what I have seen in rural southern Italy where my aunt lives which is hot and dry for long period with occasional rain.

To re-iterate - you require an additional electrode close to the consumer unit as Telectrix advised. Use 6 or 10mm2 insulated green yellow cable between it and CU. Don't disconnect the present one further away. You will connect the new electrode to the earth bar in the CU. Two metres away or thereabouts is fine.

 

[Yonny24]

Forgive the 'questions, questions, questions' but I want to be sure about things.

What size are the conductors in the incoming supply cable with the red, white and brown conductors going to the input to the C63A below?

What size are the three white conductors leaving the C63A and heading to the C40A upstairs?

Is there any space inside the upper consumer unit for either an rcd and mcb or an rcbo? If not is there space 'somewhere' very adjacent for a separate enclosure containing these?

Which of the pairings L1-N, L2-N, L1-L2 has the most spare capacity ie has the lowest kW of connected loads.

What does the C16 to the left of the C63A supply? Is it connected across L1 and L2 ie red and brown/blue

If I remember correctly L1 and L2 are red and blue and N is white (except for the three whites between the C63A and C40A.

Have you found your home's earth electrode?

And should to get the picture straight in my mind, apart from C16 below, the C63 only feeds the C40 above? I ask because it looks like may be some reds go into the bottom left of the C63 - see blue arrow in my attachment.

What size are the conductors in the incoming supply cable with the red, white and brown conductors going to the input to the C63A below?
hard to tell tbh but looks like 6mm2 but appears a little thicker than the ones leaving to upstairs. May just have thicker insulation?
I understand that because it has 2 x 6mm2 cables for L it can handle that substantial current for the underfloor heating etc.

What size are the three white conductors leaving the C63A and heading to the C40A upstairs?
6mm2

Is there any space inside the upper consumer unit for either an rcd and mcb or an rcbo? If not is there space 'somewhere' very adjacent for a separate enclosure containing these?
I can install a separate enclosure adjacent.

Which of the pairings L1-N, L2-N, L1-L2 has the most spare capacity ie has the lowest kW of connected loads.
Note sure tbh - but I assume the pair that supplies the rest of the lower floor C16 rail has the highest kW usage.

What does the C16 to the left of the C63A supply? Is it connected across L1 and L2 ie red and brown/blue

Just a small C16 and RCD for a few exterior appliances at the end of the garden for some led lights/small pool pump and router.
I wanted the exterior appliances on their own circuit and RCD so if they tripped it would not trip the whole house.


If I remember correctly L1 and L2 are red and blue and N is white (except for the three whites between the C63A and C40A.

Have you found your home's earth electrode?
Yes, but as discussed I will install a new one closer to the CU on the other side of the house with a new 6mm earth cable.

And should to get the picture straight in my mind, apart from C16 below, the C63 only feeds the C40 above? I ask because it looks like may be some reds go into the bottom left of the C63 - see blue arrow in my attachment.
This C63 in the main CU also supplies a rail of C16 breakers below that feed the lower floor lighting, and sockets for the living room, dining room, and kitchen.

 

[marconi]

Thank you . I will study tomorrow morning.

 

[marconi]

I have been re-reading the discussion we had on your uf. I found this post by you:

Here we have the ground floor contactors. 4 thermostats (cheap copies of Honeywell and do not work well at all). Installing a central digital thermostat that will send a signal to the sonoff switch in the fuse box.

Living room
Dining room
Breakfast room and kitchen (2 zones).

Living room about 11-12m2 consumes about 2000 kwh.
Dining room a little less and kitchen/breakfast about 1800 combined.

No more than 6000 kwh. (230v)

Could you confirm that you are reporting the power in kW of the ufh in these rooms and not their power consumption in kWh.

If you are reporting power in kW can you tell me how the power in spread over the three lines? I cannot open up any earlier diagrams you produced. Is each room’s ufh fed by it’s own breaker, a 20A I seem to remember? I vaguely remember we installed two power meters and after these the ufh was equally split over the lines.
Are these rooms ufh all supplied from the same board (via the C40breaker)?

Do you have an electric oven and an electric hob? If yes what lines do they connect to And via what size breakers. To which board does the oven and hob connect to? Can you see the power of these appliances on their spec plates?

Let me tell you that what I want to confirm is the shower can safely be supplied after the C40 breaker between L1 and N or L2 and N, the pair selected having the capacity to provide 28A for the shower and with 12A remaining for everything else which may by drawing significant current While the shower is on. So shower, oven, hob and a third of the ufh on one L-N pair would be a problem Since 28 + 10 + 20 + 10 = 68A Which would trip the C40. whereas shower plus 1/3 of ufh would be 28 + 10 = 38A which would not trip C40.

 

[Yonny24]

I have been re-reading the discussion we had on your uf. I found this post by you:

Here we have the ground floor contactors. 4 thermostats (cheap copies of Honeywell and do not work well at all). Installing a central digital thermostat that will send a signal to the sonoff switch in the fuse box.

Living room
Dining room
Breakfast room and kitchen (2 zones).

Living room about 11-12m2 consumes about 2000 kwh.
Dining room a little less and kitchen/breakfast about 1800 combined.

No more than 6000 kwh. (230v)

Could you confirm that you are reporting the power in kW of the ufh in these rooms and not their power consumption in kWh.

If you are reporting power in kW can you tell me how the power in spread over the three lines? I cannot open up any earlier diagrams you produced. Is each room’s ufh fed by it’s own breaker, a 20A I seem to remember? I vaguely remember we installed two power meters and after these the ufh was equally split over the lines.
Are these rooms ufh all supplied from the same board (via the C40breaker)?

Do you have an electric oven and an electric hob? If yes what lines do they connect to And via what size breakers. To which board does the oven and hob connect to? Can you see the power of these appliances on their spec plates?

Let me tell you that what I want to confirm is the shower can safely be supplied after the C40 breaker between L1 and N or L2 and N, the pair selected having the capacity to provide 28A for the shower and with 12A remaining for everything else which may by drawing significant current While the shower is on. So shower, oven, hob and a third of the ufh on one L-N pair would be a problem Since 28 + 10 + 20 + 10 = 68A Which would trip the C40. whereas shower plus 1/3 of ufh would be 28 + 10 = 38A which would not trip C40.

Many thanks Marconi.

Before I go into details later it does look like it will not provide enough power if we were to have the shower on plus the electric hob/oven we have (which goes to the C16 breakers - induction hob is a low current type with a 13amp fuse plug attached.) and UFH.
The UFH on the lower floor is 6000W approx. (Living room 2000w) which I believe is split between L1/N,L2/N. Yes all go through the C40 but the UFH does have its own CU adjacent with another breaker and RCD.
We only use 2 zones of the UFH now during the winter for about 2 hours a day - about 3800W per hour.

The utility company provides a fixed kwh service that can be upgraded but at an extra monthly cost (fixed fee).

If we were to install the shower on the current contract with C40, it appears that we would need to ensure the UFH is off while in use which isn't ideal. Fine in summer but now we'd need to switch the UFH off if anyone is switching on the shower I'm sure.
An automation could be created in my smart home as the contactors for the UFH are turned on by wifi switches - could be one or the other, never both on at the same time.

Ours is the 15* contract shown below. I assume if it was upgraded to 20 or 25* then they would also upgrade the C40 to a higher rating. I will anyway ask how much more to upgrade if even possible. The cabling to the house may be a limitation.

​

Suministro Trifásico (potencia en kW)
6, 8, 10, 12 *
15 *
20 *
25 *
30 *
35 *
40 *
41 a 50 *

 

[marconi]

There is a way of detecting when the shower is switched on and then switching off large loads until the shower is turned off - a shower priority unit. This would work well if the shower and some of the ufh were supplied by the same LN pair. It would not matter that the ufh was off for a little while. Something like this:

Garo Priority Shower Board 6 Amp IP40 1 Row - https://www.meteorelectrical.com/distribution-control/consumer-units-accessories-1/garo-priority-shower-board-choose-priority.html

 

[Yonny24]

There is a way of detecting when the shower is switched on and then switching off large loads until the shower is turned off - a shower priority unit. This would work well if the shower and some of the ufh were supplied by the same LN pair. It would not matter that the ifh was off for a little while. Something like this:

Garo Priority Shower Board 6 Amp IP40 1 Row - https://www.meteorelectrical.com/distribution-control/consumer-units-accessories-1/garo-priority-shower-board-choose-priority.html

thanks was just editing my previous post to implement a smart switch of some kind so both can never be on at the same time! Good idea!
I'll look into this as I really don't want to have to pay for a new installation and monthly costs for extra power to the CU.

Would certainly want the UFH to switch off and not the shower if my wife is washing her hair!! lol

So this kind of unit would be installed in the main CU downstairs, one output feeding the UFH and the other the shower which would need to be cabled through to the upstairs CU?

 

[marconi]

I will wait to hear about the cost of upgrading the supply capacity to your home. It seems you are at that point now and would be useful should you wish to add ev car charger. Aircon etc in future.

The shower priority units contain a 40A rcbo ( rcd and Mcb combined) suitable for a shower so in terms of cost to you not much more and indeed might be less than buying the components separately..

Could use with 6mm2 cable. For 4 mm2 would need extra 32A mcb. Getting ahead of myself - sorry !

 

[Yonny24]

I will wait to hear about the cost of upgrading the supply capacity to your home.

The shower priority units contain a 40A rcbo ( rcd and Mcb combined) suitable for a shower so in terms of cost to you not much more and indeed might be less than buying the components separately .

I won't go ahead with increasing the costs of the monthly kwh - my other half does not want to spend any more money, especially during these hard times.

So some kind of smart switching device.

There is some talk here about using a combination of contactors that only allow one on at a time. How is this achieved?

Shower Priority Unit

I've often wondered why these units don't seem to be popular in England/Scotland/Wales. They are a big big seller in the North and South of Ireland. Can you see any specific reason why they wouldn't be popular, would it be the cost or is it purely down to lack of knowledge that they're on the...

www.electriciansforums.net

This smart shower unit is not available here and will be too expensive to send over with all the taxes and shipping etc

I will be able to program this through automation easily with the wifi switches I use anyway - shower contactor on -> UFH contactor off.

 

[marconi]

thanks was just editing my previous post to implement a smart switch of some kind so both can never be on at the same time! Good idea!
I'll look into this as I really don't want to have to pay for a new installation and monthly costs for extra power to the CU.

Would certainly want the UFH to switch off and not the shower if my wife is washing her hair!! lol

So this kind of unit would be installed in the main CU downstairs, one output feeding the UFH and the other the shower which would need to be cabled through to the upstairs CU?

Yes but that is my quick answer. Which is easiest panel to wire shower to ?

you have the idea now. Just need to study whether shower and ufh power supply sharing can be implemented only at c63 or if it also could be done at c40

 

[Yonny24]

Yes but that is my quick answer. Which is easiest panel to wire shower to ?

you have the idea now. Just need to study whether shower and ufh power supply sharing can be implemented only at c63 or if it also could be done at c40

ah my mistake - was thinking I had a C40 downstairs not a C63.
Much easier to wire it to the upper floor C40.

It will be fairly easier for me to program an automation to switch OFF the downstairs UFH if ON when the shower is turned ON through the contactor. Just a smart scene within the smart switches. Very easy.

Unless there is a physical way of doing this with contactors wired in a specific configuration.

 

[marconi]

I will work you up a scheme but that will be tomorrow.

Time for a glass of Spanish wine for me before doing a salad for when my wife returns home from outpatient appointment in very hot London 30C. I am sat in our aircon home at a nice 18C.

 

[Yonny24]

I will work you up a scheme but that will be tomorrow.

Time for a glass of Spanish wine for me before doing a salad for when my wife returns home from outpatient appointment in very hot London 30C. I am sat in our aircon home at a nice 18C.

Salud! I enjoy a nice merlot from local vineyards here in Uruguay.
Yes my daily meeting with my team in Lichfield today said it was quite warm and most wanted to go to the office where there is AC!
Here 30c would be pleasantly warm for a summer day.

 

[Yonny24]

The only RCBO ratings I have found here are 25a or 40a.
Only other option is an RCD and CB of 32A - 2 units.

 

[marconi]

Which make of home automation technology (hat) do you use in your home? I want to look up if there are any hat relays or contactors or sockets.

 

[Yonny24]

Which make of home automation technology (hat) do you use in your home? I want to look up if there are any hat relays or contactors or sockets.

I have a mix of Tuya and Sonoff switches. I do know TUYA make some RCD and CB with smart tech but they are way overpriced for me.