Bedroom lights without earths

[Car123]

Here is another question. In my bedrooms 1 light is earthed and two are not. The lights are pendants..All plastic fittings. I have been told there needs to be further investigation. The investigation apparently needing to get up in to the loft to look for the earth. This is a problem for me as the loft is looked and choker block with my stuff. Loads of it. The loft is locked and I am not sure where the key is. (Lockdown intervened(.Anyhow I have asked the electricians why they need to investigate further. I said I thought it was okay that bedroom lights are not earthed with plastic fittings. They just dont answer. I am feeling a bit desparate about it as I have 28 days to complete the work

 

[buzzlightyear]

Here is another question. In my bedrooms 1 light is earthed and two are not

The loft is locked and I am not sure where the key is

.Anyhow I have asked the electricians why they need to investigate further. I said I thought it was okay that bedroom lights are not earthed with plastic fittings.

is this place rented ?

 

[Car123]

is this place rented ?

Yes that's why I have done the recent EICR. One was done in 2014 before it was mandatory and no problem was raised then

 

[buzzlightyear]

yes that's why I have done the recent EICR. One was done in 2014 before it was mandatory and no problem was raised then

considering the new law for new tenants this year ,and next year all rented will need a test cert
either you let them do investigation has F1 ,has it failed .

 

[Car123]

considering the new law for new tenants this year ,and next year all rented will need a test cert
either you let them do investigation has F1 ,has it failed .

Well I know that. My question is about understanding why and what they need to investigate. My understanding was that bedroom lights do not need to be earthed if they are doubly insulated. I have asked the electricians twice to explain why and have had no reply

 

[Baddegg]

I reckon your stuck on this one mate, if there’s no cpc then it’s not rcd’d so depending on inspector you are probably getting a C2 regardless...so it’ll need sorting and that will involve accessing the loft

 

[Car123]

I reckon your stuck on this one mate, if there’s no cpc then it’s not rcd’d so depending on inspector you are probably getting a C2 regardless...so it’ll need sorting and that will involve accessing the loft

I don't really understand. I thought perhaps incorrectly that bedroom .lights did not need an earth if doubly insulated.

 

[Burtones]

It seems strange that one of the bedrooms has an earth though? Are the other bedrooms not wired in twin and earth? Maybe the electrician thinks the cpc must be tucked away in the loft- probably could have dropped the ceiling rose to have a look though and they should be able to see if it's t&e without even doing that.

You're right though that if the lighting circuit has no cpc then it must only have class 2 fittings and plastic switches and would then warrant a C3 and a notice not to connect any class 1 fittings as circuit has no cpc.

I know the loft may have no access right now but considering one light has no earth it would be a quick and easy upgrade to have the remaining lights earthed in the future to improve safety (and wouldn't cost much).

 

[Baddegg]

I don't really understand. I thought perhaps incorrectly that bedroom .lights did not need an earth if doubly insulated.

No lights need an Earth if double insulated.....right up until the 18th When all circuits need rcd protection in a domestic setting...which can’t happen with no cpc, I would say that if the others have cpcs you may have them there and they’ve just been cut out (not uncommon) which is why they’ll want to access the loft to rectify.....in fairness to the sparks if they can find it that’s a cheap fix for you

 

[buzzlightyear]

Well I know that. My question is about understanding why and what they need to investigate. My understanding was that bedroom lights do not need to be earthed if they are doubly insulated. I have asked the electricians twice to explain why and have had no reply

i love people saying it worked before so why should it change ,answer tenant council heath and safety and a man with big hammer ,stop and go to jail. no free card then .

 

[Car123]

No lights need an Earth if double insulated.....right up until the 18th When all circuits need rcd protection in a domestic setting...which can’t happen with no cpc, I would say that if the others have cpcs you may have them there and they’ve just been cut out (no uncommon) which is why they’ll want to access the loft to rectify.....in fairness to the sparks if they can find it that’s a cheap fix for you

Well 1) the bathroom is not earthed but that's okay I am told as it has a doubly insulated light fitting. I understood originally from the electrician who did the test that it was okay that the lights are not earthed as they are in bedrooms and have plastic pendant fittings. At the 2014 EICR it passed. So I am confused.

 

[James]

I think it would be useful to post a copy of this report if you have a couple of things on it you would like clearing up.

just remove the personal details first.

 

[Car123]

i love people saying it worked before so why should it change ,answer tenant council heath and safety and a man with big hammer ,stop and go to jail. no free card then .

Well not sure that I follow your drift. I am trying to understand the situation.

 

[buzzlightyear]

Well 1) the bathroom is not earthed but that's okay I am told as it has a doubly insulated light fitting. I understood originally from the electrician who did the test that it was okay that the lights are not earthed as they are in bedrooms and have plastic pendant fittings. At the 2014 EICR it passed. So I am confused.

how thing have changed since 2014 ,hey Marty . so where did i leave the the DeLorean car .

 

[buzzlightyear]

Well not sure that I follow your drift. I am trying to understand the situation

get the sparks to sort the problem out ,and you will be sorted .

 

[buzzlightyear]

https://professional-electrician.com/technical/lighting-circuits-without-cpc/

 

[richy3333]

411.3.1.1

A circuit protective conductor shall be run to and terminated at each point in wiring and at each accessory except a lampholder having no exposed-conductive-parts and suspended from such a point

 

[buzzlightyear]

Lighting circuits installed before 1966 did not require a circuit protective conductor (cpc) to be run to and terminated at every point and accessory of a lighting circuit, as is currently required by Regulation 411.3.1.1 of BS 7671. my version .

 

[Car123]

I think it would be useful to post a copy of this report if you have a couple of things on it you would like clearing up.

just remove the personal details first.

Well I don't have the report as they will not be issuing it until the work is done. I have a number of points sent to me by email.. 1).The wrong fuse was put in the consumer unit by an electrician who fitted new lights. This has been changed. C2).The light in the bathroom highlighted in last EICR was changed then..But they put the wrong one in. This too has been rectified.C2 3 ).There is loose trunking. This was raised on EICR in 2014. I did not see the report at the time as agent had it. I have now got hold of it and it was registered as C3. It is now graded as C2. I think that I now understand that since Edition 18 this grading may have changed. Though the electrician who did it in 2014 says its still C3. But whatever. 4) There is no label on the gas to show the water And gas are earthed C2. I think this needs a clamp?. Don't understand this at all but .. 5).The investigation regarding The lights

 

[Car123]

411.3.1.1

A circuit protective conductor shall be run to and terminated at each point in wiring and at each accessory except a lampholder having no exposed-conductive-parts and suspended from such a point

Well you sound like you know what you are talking about. Problem is being ignorant I don't understand what all this means. What does this involve? Has this changed since 2014

 

[Car123]

Lighting circuits installed before 1966 did not require a circuit protective conductor (cpc) to be run to and terminated at every point and accessory of a lighting circuit, as is currently required by Regulation 411.3.1.1 of BS 7671. my version .

Did this come after 2014? Can I achieve this without going in to the loft

 

[dodger421]

Well I don't have the report as they will not be issuing it until the work is done. I have a number of points sent to me by email.. 1).The wrong fuse was put in the consumer unit by an electrician who fitted new lights. This has been changed. C2).The light in the bathroom highlighted in last EICR was changed then..But they put the wrong one in. This too has been rectified.C2 3 ).There is loose trunking. This was raised on EICR in 2014. I did not see the report at the time as agent had it. I have now got hold of it and it was registered as C3. It is now graded as C2. I think that I now understand that since Edition 18 this grading may have changed. Though the electrician who did it in 2014 says its still C3. But whatever. 4) There is no label on the gas to show the water And gas are earthed C2. I think this needs a clamp?. Don't understand this at all but .. 5).The investigation regarding The lights

4) main protective bonding connections should have a tag or label with the wording “safety electrical connection do not remove”. Missing labelling on its own is a C3, but if the clamp is missing or not properly connected to the MET it is a C2 as main protective bonding is not in place.

 

[James]

If you have paid for a report, they should not be withholding it.

After all, you asked them to do a report, not give you a list of things you must do before they will give you a report.

Write them an email, along the lines of.

I have ordered and paid for an EICR to be done at 123 any avenue.
I have now waited x days for it and find this unacceptable.
please provide the report as ordered as soon as possible and in any case within 5 days or i will seek advice on how to recover the money paid to you for a service i have not received.

 

[Car123]

4) main protective bonding connections should have a tag or label with the wording “safety electrical connection do not remove”. Missing labelling on its own is a C3, but if the clamp is missing or not properly connected to the MET it is a C2 as main protective bonding is not in place.l

What does the clamp.do? Again this was not picked up at the 2014 testing. Could it have fallen off. The bonding was done in the 80s

 

[dodger421]

Well you sound like you know what you are talking about. Problem is being ignorant I don't understand what all this means. What does this involve? Has this changed since 2014

In layman’s terms an earth (CPC) needs to be run to every switch, ceiling rose, socket, outside light, shower pump, extractor fan etc etc that’s connected to fixed wiring. That applies even if the items are double insulated and don’t actually need an earth connection. The earth (CPC) should be terminated in a suitable manner, not folded back or left dangling.

The only exception is the (normally) flexible cable attaching a double insulated lamp holder to the ceiling rose. That would be the pendant with either the bayonet or Edison screw lamp holder. The earth (CPC) must still be present at the ceiling rose.

 

[Baddegg]

Well 1) the bathroom is not earthed but that's okay I am told as it has a doubly insulated light fitting. I understood originally from the electrician who did the test that it was okay that the lights are not earthed as they are in bedrooms and have plastic pendant fittings. At the 2014 EICR it passed. So I am confused.

The 18th edition happened..

 

[dodger421]

What does the clamp.do? Again this was not picked up at the 2014 testing. Could it have fallen off. The bonding was done in the 80s

BS951 clamps provide a mechanically secure and electrically sound connection for the main protective bonding conductor. They’re unlikely to fall off, but often get removed by other tradesmen during their works. I’ve come across a good number where the clamp is physically connected to a bit of copper pipe that’s been cut off after springing a leak.

 

[Baddegg]

How can you know all this stuff if you havnt got a report youve paid for??.....if they’ve completed the report which it sounds like they have and you’ve paid them for that service the report is now yours....what you choose to do bout it is on you as well.....there is nothing stopping you from ripping it up MF geyting nother one from different spark.....I would stress that is no Guarantee of a more favourable report though,

 

[Baddegg]

BS951 clamps provide a mechanically secure and electrically sound connection for the main protective bonding conductor. They’re unlikely to fall off, but often get removed by WETPANTS during their works. I’ve come across a good number where the clamp is physically connected to a bit of copper pipe that’s been cut off after springing a leak.

corrected that for you mate ?

 

[dodger421]

corrected that for you mate ?

I was trying not to discriminate, plenty of Kev’s do the same ;-D

 

[Baddegg]

I was trying not to discriminate, plenty of Kev’s do the same ;-D

Very PC I like that....I’m old so it’s wetpants for me ?

 

[Car123]

If you have paid for a report, they should not be withholding it.

After all, you asked them to do a report, not give you a list of things you must do before they will give you a report.

Write them an email, along the lines of.

I have ordered and paid for an EICR to be done at 123 any avenue.
I have now waited x days for it and find this unacceptable.
please provide the report as ordered as soon as possible and in any case within 5 days or i will seek advice on how to recover the money paid to you for a service i have not received.

Well I get your point. But to be honest I don't want to up the ante at this point. I am 350.miles away locked down and much as I am dismayed I need to be pragmatic..They have sent me a list

 

[Car123]

Very PC I like that....I’m old so it’s wetpants for me ?

Well.some joke

 

[James]

Just to add to the post about getting the report, at the moment you are worried about items in a report that will become a legal document once issued.

at the moment everything you are concerned about is not actually a problem because nobody has provided you with any document to say it is.

these issues MAY be a problem that the contractor is willing to write down on a legal document that could later be scrutinised, however they may Not appear on the report (if they are just trying to drum up a little extra work)

In any case once you have the report, you can give a copy to any local spark to quote for doing the remedial works, there is no obligation to stay with the same contractor.

 

[Baddegg]

Well.some joke

Some do some don’t.....life is short man so you’ll find me in stiches at every opportunity, no offence implied I promise ?

 

[Car123]

corrected that for you mate ?

Are wetpsnts plumbers

 

[Car123]

Some do some don’t.....life is short man so you’ll find me in stiches at every opportunity, no offence implied I promise ?

Just confused..

 

[James]

Are wetpsnts plumbers

wetpants are plumbers
wetpsnts, is that text talk for wet peasants? if so I think it is a bit non PC!!!!

 

[Car123]

Just to add to the post about getting the report, at the moment you are worried about items in a report that will become a legal document once issued.

at the moment everything you are concerned about is not actually a problem because nobody has provided you with any document to say it is.

these issues MAY be a problem that the contractor is willing to write down on a legal document that could later be scrutinised, however they may Not appear on the report (if they are just trying to drum up a little extra work)

In any case once you have the report, you can give a copy to any local spark to quote for doing the remedial works, there is no obligation to stay with the same contractor.

Will they accept the report. Or would they need to retest? I think it might prove more expensive and time confusing

 

[Baddegg]

Are wetpsnts plumbers

Yes mate bad ones ? kevs are kitchen fitters and builders are.......you know! ??

 

[Baddegg]

Just confused..

You said to me.......well some joke......I said some do some don’t......

 

[Car123]

wetpants are plumbers
wetpsnts, is that text talk for wet peasants? if so I think it is a bit non PC!!!!

Now I understand. That makes sense. I had some dreadful wetpants. Ha I shall remember that. They were wet peasants ahh ha ha

 

[Baddegg]

Now I understand. That makes sense. I had some dreadful wetpants. Ha I shall remember that. They were wet peasants ahh ha ha

Noooooo not Wetpeasants!....wetpants......they certainly ain’t peasants the money they charge ? although I’d love to be there when you jokingly call one a peasant whilst he’s attempting to save ya house ?

 

[James]

Will they accept the report. Or would they need to retest? I think it might prove more expensive and time confusing

There is no requirement to get a second report done.

You have ordered and paid for the report. once you have it, it is done for the next 5 years.
However any dangerous faults MUST BE FIXED.
the person doing the repairs etc. should provide you with an invoice, a minor works certificate or an installation report to keep hold of so you can prove if you are ever asked to that the repairs have been done.

 

[SJD]

I've come across several landlords that have paid for an EICR to be done, only to be told that there is a lot of remedial work before it is issued. In a couple of cases, the report was not even drafted, and half the tests not actually done. I would be suspicious of being asked to pay for remedial work before you can have a copy of the report.

Once you have the report, you can decide whether to use the original electrician or someone else to rectify the issues. You should not have to pay to have a second complete report done.

 

[Car123]

Noooooo not Wetpeasants!....wetpants......they certainly ain’t peasants the money they charge ? although I’d love to be there when you jokingly call one a peasant whilst he’s attempting to save ya house ?

The majority of plumbers I have had have been fine though as you say they charge high prices. But I had some lousy ones and it makes sense that in the absolute mayhem they created that they managed to screw up the clamp

 

[Baddegg]

The majority of plumbers I have had have been fine though as you say they charge high prices. But I had some lousy ones and it makes sense that in the absolute mayhem they created that they managed to screw up the clamp

Hence our endearing term (honestly) of wetpants......I’ve no idea what they call us although my tame wetpants genuinely believes that electricity is all “ white magic” ?

 

[James]

Hence our endearing term (honestly) of wetpants......I’ve no idea what they call us although my tame wetpants genuinely believes that electricity is all “ white magic” ?

"black magic" matter too!!

 

[Car123]

Yes mate bad ones ? kevs are kitchen fitters and builders are.......you know! ??

What are roofers. Is this Northern terminology. I am in Cornwall

 

[Car123]

I've come across several landlords that have paid for an EICR to be done, only to be told that there is a lot of remedial work before it is issued. In a couple of cases, the report was not even drafted, and half the tests not actually done. I would be suspicious of being asked to pay for remedial work before you can have a copy of the report.

Once you have the report, you can decide whether to use the original electrician or someone else to rectify the issues. You should not have to pay to have a second complete report done.

But I will need the report with details of everything being okay. I have to give this to the tenants