Caravan site wiring

[nickjohn]

Ordered a copy of the BGB something to read on those lonely winter nights...

 

[happysteve]

section 7XX modifies and also supplements the other regs in the book in both BS7671 and GN7 (which of course is referenced to the regs), so you have to back track to the original reg and then intereprate what the modification/supplementary information is.

Agreed. Sort of. I don't think there necessarily needs to be an original reg. "The particular requirements for each section (special installation or location) in Part 7 supplement or modify the general requirements contained in other parts of the Regulations." (700, BGB). So you can supplement or modify "the general requirements."

In section 721 note one, it states "the general requirements apply" (my emphasis), if it did not refer to this section it would have said general requirements apply, or given the basic reg numbers.

I disagree. I don't believe the distinction between "the rest of the BGB" (which is what I take to be meant by "the general requirements" and "this section specifically" (which seems to be what you're implying) rests on the presence or absence of the word "the". If it does, then surely 700 from the BGB (quoted above) would instead state: "The particular requirements for each section (special installation or location) in Part 7 supplement or modify general requirements contained in other parts of the Regulations."

As you have pointed out further in your post, where it says "the requirements (meaning this section,721) do not apply to the internal electrical installation of leisure vehicles"

Of course it doesn't, the CU and wiring inside of the caravan is just covered by the standard regs as any other installation would be, why would it be any different ?

The whole point of these "special installations or locations" is to "supplement or modify" "the general regulations". So yes, the vast majority of the CU and wiring inside the caravan is covered by the standard regs. Then the relevant sections of 721 supplement and modify these.

721 refers to "Electrical installations in caravans and motor caravans." So, the stuff inside the vans, not on the site (which is covered in 708).

Does 721 cover trains? No. It's pretty obvious it doesn't cover trains, so it doesn't mention trains. The BGB is pretty dull as it is, imagine if every time it mentioned something new, it said, "Oh, by the way, we're not talking about trains."

How about moon buggies? Again, no.

How about static caravans? They're caravans, right? Surely they must be covered under 721? And residential park homes? After all, they're rolled off the low loader on wheels, they even come with a tow bar (removable), so that makes them a caravan, in terms of the scope of 721 (which is "special installations or locations" to "supplement or modify the general regulations".)? Well, no:

"721.1 Scope: The particular requirements of this section apply to the electrical installations of caravans and motor caravans at nominal voltages [blah blah]. They do not apply to the electrical installations of mobile homes, residential park homes and transportable units."

So section 721 does not apply to mobile homes or residential park homes or transportable units.

I wonder if there are any special requirements for these sorts of things (since it mentions them)? "Note 2: For transportable unit, see 717" Ah, so transportable units has a special section. What about mobile homes and residential park homes? "Note 1: for mobile homes and residential park homes the general requirements apply."

So for mobile homes, the general regulations apply. Nothing mentioned in 721 applies, in the same way that nothing in 721 applies to a house.

Section 721 only refers to the additional and supplementary regs over and above the normal that is associated with the the peculiarity of that type of install, it tells you this at the very top of page 52 of GN7.

I agree entirely. I think where we differ is whether 721 the "particular type of install" covers static caravans or not. I say not.

 

[D Skelton]

I wonder if there are any special requirements for these sorts of things (since it mentions them)? "Note 2: For transportable unit, see 717" Ah, so transportable units has a special section. What about mobile homes and residential park homes? "Note 1: for mobile homes and residential park homes the general requirements apply."

So for mobile homes, the general regulations apply. Nothing mentioned in 721 applies, in the same way that nothing in 721 applies to a house.

I agree entirely. I think where we differ is whether 721 the "particular type of install" covers static caravans or not. I say not.

Section 717 deals with mobile or transportable units, exaples of such units include technical and facilities vehicles for the entertainment industry, medical or health screening services, welfare units, promotion and demonstration, firefighting, workshops, offices, transportable catering units etc.

Nowhere does it mention here mobile or transportable units suitable for habitation, thus we end up back at section 721. If this isn't enough to sway your opinion maybe this is; Section 29 (1) of the Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act 1960 ("The 1960 Act") a caravan is defined as any structure designed or adapted for human habitation which is capable of being moved from one place to another (whether by being towed, or by being transported on a motor vehicle or trailer) and any motor vehicle so designed or adapted.

A static caravan falls quite clearly into this description, therefore the only conclusion that can be drawn from this is that static caravans are caravans, therefore they are covered by section 721.

 

[spark 68]

It is the wording of the regs that is the problem, there is a lot of grey areas and overlap, and some incompatibities, also a few downright mistakes, they have to produce a series of guides for a guide for christ sake.

I still maintain you are incorrect about the wording in section 721, (I do have some training on this aspect :wink_smile, and it does refer to that section.

If I can find some other material that helps I will post it up, I may still have some course notes.

Caravans are mostly off the beaten track where the subject is just skimmed past on most courses, it is mostly common sense when you actually get into the nuts and bolts of it.

the parts of the wiring of the caravan itself in that section refer to permitted wiring types, ELV, DC supplies and other things which you would only really be bothered about if you were actually designing, building or repairing the things, and are not really relevent to this thread, the parts we are discussing here are covered on pages 57 and 58 of GN7, 7.6.1, 7.6.2 and 7.6.5 and 7.6.6, and mainly concern the supply to the caravan in conjunction with section 708

Part of section 721 see above paragraph (GN7 pg 57 and 58, 7.6.1, 7.6.2, 7.6.5 and 7.6.6) is also dependent to a large extent on the site/pitch at which it is based, which may (probably will be) be bound by it's own regs (section 708), the regs should not be taken in isolation they depend on other factors and sections in the BGB, sometimes you have to satisfy two very different seemingly contradictory criteria.

 

[happysteve]

Section 717 deals with mobile or transportable units, exaples of such units include technical and facilities vehicles for the entertainment industry, medical or health screening services, welfare units, promotion and demonstration, firefighting, workshops, offices, transportable catering units etc.

Nowhere does it mention here mobile or transportable units suitable for habitation, thus we end up back at section 721.

Agreed.

If this isn't enough to sway your opinion maybe this is; Section 29 (1) of the Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act 1960 ("The 1960 Act") a caravan is defined as any structure designed or adapted for human habitation which is capable of being moved from one place to another (whether by being towed, or by being transported on a motor vehicle or trailer) and any motor vehicle so designed or adapted.

A static caravan falls quite clearly into this description,

Interesting reference. I agree with you, according to this reference, (and generally) I would also call a static caravan a caravan too.

The BGB makes distinctions, though, that the 1960 Act does not. Why would this be the case? Well, tourers, camper vans suffer lots of vibrations as they get moved around for one thing... hence the supplementary requirements of (eg) 721.521.2 (flexible class 5 conductor or stranded cables) and 721.522.7 (vibration). Statics don't get moved around as much. Are statics wired in T&E? (Open question, I don't know the answer... they were 20 years ago, no idea about now!)

... therefore the only conclusion that can be drawn from this is that static caravans are caravans, therefore they are covered by section 721.

Against someone as respected and experienced as yourself, and others who disagree with my perspective on this, I know my words pretty much count for nothing.

So please help me understand how, within the scope of the BGB, "caravan" is clearly defined in part 2, as is "motor caravan"; both definitions exclude mobile homes and residential park homes ("statics"), as they are not "designed to meet the requirements for the construction and use of road vehicles." 721.1 explicitly states, "The particular requirements of this section... do not apply to the electrical installations of mobile homes, residential park homes."

Is there genuine ambiguity here?

 

[happysteve]

It is the wording of the regs that is the problem, there is a lot of grey areas and overlap, and some incompatibities, also a few downright mistakes, they have to produce a series of guides for a guide for christ sake.

[chopped purely for brevity]

the regs should not be taken in isolation they depend on other factors and sections in the BGB, sometimes you have to satisfy two very different seemingly contradictory criteria.

Thanks for taking the time to reply. I will have a look at the sections, and you make a very good point about taking things as a whole.

Thanks for trying to help me understand this.

Sh***ing Nora, is that the time?!? Time for bed, said Zebedee...

 

[spark 68]

Agreed.


Interesting reference. I agree with you, according to this reference, (and generally) I would also call a static caravan a caravan too.

The BGB makes distinctions, though, that the 1960 Act does not. Why would this be the case? Well, tourers, camper vans suffer lots of vibrations as they get moved around for one thing... hence the supplementary requirements of (eg) 721.521.2 (flexible class 5 conductor or stranded cables) and 721.522.7 (vibration). Statics don't get moved around as much. Are statics wired in T&E? (Open question, I don't know the answer... they were 20 years ago, no idea about now!)



Against someone as respected and experienced as yourself, and others who disagree with my perspective on this, I know my words pretty much count for nothing.

So please help me understand how, within the scope of the BGB, "caravan" is clearly defined in part 2, as is "motor caravan"; both definitions exclude mobile homes and residential park homes ("statics"), as they are not "designed to meet the requirements for the construction and use of road vehicles." 721.1 explicitly states, "The particular requirements of this section... do not apply to the electrical installations of mobile homes, residential park homes."

Is there genuine ambiguity here?

Where the regs are concerned there is always ambiguity see my previous post, you could put a dozen sparks in a room ask a question and get a dozen different answers!

your words always count for something, if nothing else it makes us look again from a different perspective, and sometimes makes us disregard preconcieved ideas.

 

[Des 56]

For once at least,on this forum,we have dispute and a discussion to boot that is probing and driven by understanding
The thread has been interesting from a watchers point of view, the contributions by all have been appreciated

Keep it up please

 

[Badged01]

The BGB makes distinctions, though, that the 1960 Act does not.

Just for some further thought around the definition of Caravan, the Act is Law the BGB is guidance?

- - - Updated - - -

For once at least, on this forum,we have dispute and a discussion to boot that is probing and driven by understanding

Agreed, a very useful thread if only for further "education" on the subject ..... could that be classed as continuing professional development!!

 

[happysteve]

For once at least,on this forum,we have dispute and a discussion to boot that is probing and driven by understanding
The thread has been interesting from a watchers point of view, the contributions by all have been appreciated

Keep it up please

Yeah, I agree. This sort of thing, plus a bit of banter (nowt wrong with banter) is the stuff I'm interested in.

Those who've given me their perspective: cheers. I will think on this, and read a bit more of the BGB and the GNs. Nothing I've heard so far has convinced me (yet).

This was me, last night:

(xkcd.com/386/)

Long may this sort of stuff continue!

 

[nickjohn]

Hi just to continue with the current site installation. I had a look at the work done on site and wondered if you guys had any thoughts on what has been installed.

The external weatherproof housing has been screwed to the side of the van, it is a screwed shut external housing with the main sw and rcd inside, my initial thought is that if the rcd trips at any time the tenant has to remove the cover exposing the switches / connections which surely must be wrong, especially if it is raining etc etc.

Also the ground spike earth goes to the earth connection within the housing but there is no separate earth bond to the chassis is this right?? and the gas bond (10mm) is connected to the internal c/u which only has the earth from the 4mm flex going back to the external sw..

I would have expected to see within the external housing a small 1 way c/u with the main sw and rcd fully enclosed, also I had expected to see a 10mm earth bond continuing to the main chassis and gas or am I wrong??

 

[happysteve]

Oh. Oh my. I... no. No words.

I'm gonna bow out of this one, perhaps I'll resume the discussion on the nuances of the BGB in another thread in the "theories and wiring regs" forum. For this, I'm out.

 

[nickjohn]

Is it that bad or is it my assumptions that are so far out??

 

[D Skelton]

Four words:

Rip out, start again!

 

[nickjohn]

I think you can see why the owner of the site is getting a little brassed off, the sparks who did this work supposedly only does work on caravan sites!!!
He has also suggested putting the external boxes under the vans out of the way but I see from the regs guide that they must be no lower than 500 and, again, how would you access them if the trip went...
I will speak with her tomorrow and advice getting a new sparks....

 

[loz]

the best bet for your friend is to get in touch with oneof these 3 companies, all of them specialize in caravan/mobile home parks, and all work for haven, park dean, park resorts, caravan club etc etc hawkins electrical (the best but the most expensive) rolec services (cheap, but not the best) caravan park electrical services (middle of the road in terms of quality and price) all have websites

 

[D Skelton]

Or call a local spark who knows what he's doing?? This isn't exactly specialist stuff you know. You don't have to specialise in caravan park wiring to be any good at it??

 

[DPG]

So the RCBO is behind a fixed cover. And it's not even transparent, so at least you could SEE if it had tripped. And it's got a removable plug and socket but the box is screwed to the van. Mmmmmmm. Daz