Commercial site query.

[Dave Appleby]

Sorry for a bit of a long question.

For what it's worth this is Scotland.

I have been asked to quote a very large job in an old commercial office space. Site is being taken over and converted to a community church.

Work is of a large scale, removing a lot of wiring as multiple walls being removed and at present I have asked to see drawings as they were hoping to just wing it and just go ahead.

The building is about 40 years old and has been vacant for at least 7 years. In this time at least 2 water pipes have burst in the ceiling void leading to water damage in the bathrooms.

Supply is via 2 3 phase distribution boards with 96 cct on total. In Last inspection was 2007 and was recommended for a retest in 2010.

They called last night with an urgent request to get the bathroom lighting and one office lit so they can run the food bank.

The building is being taken on a 15 year lease.

At the moment I'm uncomfortable doing anything without at least the system being tested. Especially given liability issues if something goes smokey.

I've also asked to see the asbestos report as the roof looks like the old crunchy wool stuff. Following this I was assured by the client that the landlords solicitor had assured him it was ok.

So my questions are.

1) I feel that a test should be done prior to the building being handed over as I do not want to be the responsible party. Am I being a primadonna?

2) Any suggestions as to how to proceed?

3) Shouldn't the building have an EICR at the landlords cost before handover to a new tenant?

Client is not being evasive, however is a little naive.

Any suggestions or advice welcome.

Happy Monday.

Regards
Dave

 

[littlespark]

Difficult, if you know it’s going to be a good job once it gets going, and I think some others might just say walk away....

you have to sit down with the customer, or email them questions regarding what they need. Tell them that if they don’t want it tested straight away, you’re only signing for work you do to get what they need done first. Anything else could be isolated and made safe until they decide when it needs done.
it sounds like a lot will be stripped out anyway.

What did the 2007 test pick up on?

Asbestos roof will only be a problem if it’s disturbed. The premises should be on an asbestos register somewhere

 

[Dave Appleby]

Difficult, if you know it’s going to be a good job once it gets going, and I think some others might just say walk away....

you have to sit down with the customer, or email them questions regarding what they need. Tell them that if they don’t want it tested straight away, you’re only signing for work you do to get what they need done first. Anything else could be isolated and made safe until they decide when it needs done.
it sounds like a lot will be stripped out anyway.

What did the 2007 test pick up on?

Asbestos roof will only be a problem if it’s disturbed. The premises should be on an asbestos register somewhere

2007 test I only know from the board labels.
Sparkie in question is comfortably in retirement in Spain. Git!

 

[snowhead]

1) I feel that a test should be done prior to the building being handed over as I do not want to be the responsible party. Am I being a primadonna?

2) Any suggestions as to how to proceed?

3) Shouldn't the building have an EICR at the landlords cost before handover to a new tenant?

It's a Commercial Building so the recent legislation doesnt apply.
Presumably it's a full repair and maintain lease?

The simplest way to get the food bank up and running it to isolate the whole installation and run new circuit(s) just for the office and WC.

 

[Dave Appleby]

It's a Commercial Building so the recent legislation doesnt apply.
Presumably it's a full repair and maintain lease?

Thanks Snowhead.

That's the bit I couldn't find anywhere.

 

[Vortigern]

What strikes me first about your post is that you "do not want to be the responsible party" You are the responsible party as soon as you undertake work on the building/installation. This is what we do as electricians. Now you have taken up the reins it is up to you to guide/tell the client what is needed to ensure safety electrically. You must do what guidance, regs, EAWR, best practice say. In your shoes I would test anything before working on it or installing anything. Primadonna, diva? Hmmm, don't think so it is a serious business. I think a firm hand with the clients as it sounds like they need to be guided and informed.

 

[snowhead]

It's quite often a condition of Commercial tennacy that the Tennant has an electrical inspection done at their cost and provide copies to the Landlord.

And you need a copy of an Asbestos report in your hand, not the say so of someone who said someone said it was O.K.
Your client should be paying for an Asbestos survey for their own benefit as well.

I don't think the the community church realises what they have taken on.

 

[Dave Appleby]

What strikes me first about your post is that you "do not want to be the responsible party" You are the responsible party as soon as you undertake work on the building/installation. This is what we do as electricians. Now you have taken up the reins it is up to you to guide/tell the client what is needed to ensure safety electrically. You must do what guidance, regs, EAWR, best practice say. In your shoes I would test anything before working on it or installing anything. Primadonna, diva? Hmmm, don't think so it is a serious business. I think a firm hand with the clients as it sounds like they need to be guided and informed.

Thanks.
Wise words indeed.

I haven't actually done anything yet other than walk round and poke my nose in.

I'm having a chat on site later so will take all the above with me. Unfortunately, the pastor is very enthusiastic about their new venture and being stern feels a bit like kicking Bambi.

 

[Dave Appleby]

It's quite often a condition of Commercial tennacy that the Tennant has an electrical inspection done at their cost and provide copies to the Landlord.

And you need a copy of an Asbestos report in your hand, not the say so of someone who said someone said it was O.K.
Your client should be paying for an Asbestos survey for their own benefit as well.

I don't think the the community church realises what they have taken on.

I concur. That's exactly my feeling.

 

[Wilko]

Unfortunately, the pastor is very enthusiastic about their new venture and being stern feels a bit like kicking Bambi.

Yes, no kicking Bambi .
But with the building’s electrical installation in poor condition it’s return to service will not be straightforward. My thought is to isolate the installation and start dead testing to see what might actually be safe to energise.

 

[Dave Appleby]

Yes, no kicking Bambi .
But with the building’s electrical installation in poor condition it’s return to service will not be straightforward. My thought is to isolate the installation and start dead testing to see what might actually be safe to energise.

Thanks Wilko.

My thinking currently is to start from scratch.

I think I need to sit down with a coffee and gently break the bad news.

Wish me luck.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Isolate everything, new installation for the food bank, but don't forget access lighting and possibly emergency lighting, oh and smoke alarms.

 

[Dave Appleby]

Good call

 

[Timbo]

Tell the Pastor that he has a duty of care to his flock.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Can't resist.

Pastor with a Carbonara sauce.

 

[Vortigern]

Don't forget to have a handover folder/book and get them to identify at an early stage the person responsible for following routines you will detail to them through the hand over. I am thinking about log books for fire and emergency lights testing routines. And of course there is the manufacturers information for every bit of equipment you install with all the leaflets. It ends up being a lot of information. I have just rewired a mosque and trying to get a "responsible person" to take on the hand over is like trying to herd cats.

 

[Dave Appleby]

Don't forget to have a handover folder/book and get them to identify at an early stage the person responsible for following routines you will detail to them through the hand over. I am thinking about log books for fire and emergency lights testing routines. And of course there is the manufacturers information for every bit of equipment you install with all the leaflets. It ends up being a lot of information. I have just rewired a mosque and trying to get a "responsible person" to take on the hand over is like trying to herd cats.

Thanks

 

[Dave Appleby]

Just like to say thank you everyone for the advice.

We sat down yesterday and went through everything I could think of with the input from here.

Poor guy has a lot to think about especially with all the structural work he wants doing.

I am currently typing up my observations and recommendations for him.

I have also given name of a general contractor I sub for occasionally. I'm thinking that may help.

Again. Thanks all.

Regards
Dave

 

[Vortigern]

TBH clients such as you describe I usually recommend them to get an architect. At first glance this seems like an expensive thing to do. However in terms of co-ordination of trades and a plan that fits together well with a gantt chart saves a lot of heartache and mistakes. As well they know decent trades and can organise them. Normally if you try to manage a project of this complexity mistakes (usually expensive) are made and trades collide like the plasterer has sealed of the ceiling so you can't now do the wiring. The really great thing is that the architect is professionally indemnified unlike a lot of builders who just fold when sued.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Architects are rubbish as project managers, in fact they are responsible for most of the major claims that contractors make, hence the existence of the Institute of Project Mangers, they are also responsible for the existence of the CDM Regulations, because they did not know how to prevent foreseeable Health and Safety Risk in the Construction Industry.