Competent person and EICR

[ruston]

But for providing EICRs you do need PI, also a lot of DIs are not insured for three phase which I will bet they are not aware of

Or working with flame, I'ts a minefield.

 

[Anthony S]

People hide behind the NIC logo they own/run a company are not qualified and get some mug to become their QS and more a less front the company.

At least holding a JIB ticket with all your papers your never be out of work and can always earn a living.

 

[Guest125]

But for providing EICRs you do need PI, also a lot of DIs are not insured for three phase which I will bet they are not aware of

Correct me if I am wrong but we are told by the NIC not to provide advice as part of the EICR. It should only be a report on what the installation is. So, you should not write "recommend a re-wire" or anything like that. Points such as "socket within the hall is broken and has exposed conductive parts".

No advice should be on that report.

The advice would form part of the quotation/design that follows after the report.

 

[Guest125]

People hide behind the NIC logo they own/run a company are not qualified and get some mug to become their QS and more a less front the company.

At least holding a JIB ticket with all your papers your never be out of work and can always earn a living.

The QS must be a full time employee.

 

[spark 68]

Correct me if I am wrong but we are told by the NIC not to provide advice as part of the EICR. It should only be a report on what the installation is. So, you should not write "recommend a re-wire" or anything like that. Points such as "socket within the hall is broken and has exposed conductive parts".

No advice should be on that report.

The advice would form part of the quotation/design that follows after the report.

Sigh :wink_smile: Do you think I like paying more for my insurance than I would need to ? uke:

 

[Anthony S]

The QS must be a full time employee.

That don't mean on the cards, means they spent the majority of there working time with that particular company.

I know this because I have been a QS for a NICEIC company for a mate (got paid well) and also had my own full scope NAPIT running at the same time.

I don't think anything as changed since 10 year ago, they only want money.

 

[Guest125]

Sigh :wink_smile: Do you think I like paying more for my insurance than I would need to ? uke:

We sub our design work out. Imagine what my PI insurance would be on the railways?

 

[Guest125]

That don't mean on the cards, means they spent the majority of there working time with that particular company.

I know this because I have been a QS for a NICEIC company for a mate (got paid well) and also had my own full scope NAPIT running at the same time.

That should not have happened. A full time employee is exactly that. PAYE. A sub-contractor/consultant should not be allowed to QS for anyone.

 

[Guest125]

That should not have happened. A full time employee is exactly that. PAYE. A sub-contractor/consultant should not be allowed to QS for anyone.

But saying this I now realise that although this is written in there terms no checks were made by the NICEIC to ascertain that I was actually who I said I was and that I was a PAYE employee contracted to the company.

 

[spark 68]

On an EICR what do you think a C3 is ? A a recommendation that improvement is required.

That aside you are giving a professional opinion that either the installation is safe for continued use, or not, whichever the case may be, hence the PI.

 

[Anthony S]

But saying this I now realise that although this is written in there terms no checks were made by the NICEIC to ascertain that I was actually who I said I was and that I was a PAYE employee contracted to the company.

Their not bothered, my mate kept on putting them off for an inspection for about 2 years and they were happy to keep taking the fee.
He said he had no work to show them and they said if that's the case then we won't strike you off lol

 

[Leesparkykent]

That don't mean on the cards, means they spent the majority of there working time with that particular company.

I know this because I have been a QS for a NICEIC company for a mate (got paid well) and also had my own full scope NAPIT running at the same time.

I don't think anything as changed since 10 year ago, they only want money.

This makes me chuckle lol

 

[Guest125]

On an EICR what do you think a C3 is ? A a recommendation that improvement is required.

That aside you are giving a professional opinion that either the installation is safe for continued use, or not, whichever the case may be, hence the PI.

A recommendation that improvement is required but you should not state on the EICR how that improvement can be achieved. Hence, no PI required ;-)

 

[Guest125]

As I said earlier - splitting hairs.

 

[spark 68]

UKESRail, I looked into this long before I ever offered PIRs (as they were then) and you need PI, whether you like this or not, if you are going to offer that service then you need it.

I also added 3 phase and a few other bits and pieces to mine because I found out I was not covered for what I thought I was.

 

[Guest125]

I would have though my PL covered my for testing. I will speak with the insurance company.

 

[Anthony S]

I would have though my PL covered my for testing. I will speak with the insurance company.

Ask the NIC and they will tell you, you need it if

Professional Indemnity cover protects your legal liability to compensate third parties should they sustain any injury, loss or damage due to professional negligence on your part.
For example, if you undertake periodic testing and/or inspection of another person’s work and certify it to be adequate, but then there is a fault resulting in a financial loss to the customer, this would be covered under your professional Indemnity cover. If however you only test and inspect your own work there is no need for professional indemnity, as your public liability insurance will cover you.

 

[Guest125]

Ask the NIC and they will tell you, you need it if

Professional Indemnity cover protects your legal liability to compensate third parties should they sustain any injury, loss or damage due to professional negligence on your part.
For example, if you undertake periodic testing and/or inspection of another person’s work and certify it to be adequate, but then there is a fault resulting in a financial loss to the customer, this would be covered under your professional Indemnity cover. If however you only test and inspect your own work there is no need for professional indemnity, as your public liability insurance will cover you.

Looks like I need to speak to the insurance company and ensure this is place sharpish.

Thanks for the advice gents..

 

[spark 68]

I would have though my PL covered my for testing. I will speak with the insurance company.

It (PL) does cover you testing for what you install (the EIC bit), that is not the issue here, we are talking about offering EICRs, for that you need PI, IIRC there is also a separate addition for if you intend to supply design documentation/circuit diagrams etc., although I would have to double check that latter point.

 

[Anthony S]

Looks like I need to speak to the insurance company and ensure this is place sharpish.

Thanks for the advice gents..

No problem given I'm a older and wiser then you lol

 

[ruston]

UKESRail, I looked into this long before I ever offered PIRs (as they were then) and you need PI, whether you like this or not, if you are going to offer that service then you need it.

I also added 3 phase and a few other bits and pieces to mine because I found out I was not covered for what I thought I was.

And make no mistake, if they can find a way not to pay out -they will.

 

[Guest125]

And make no mistake, if they can find a way not to pay out -they will.

Hopefully never need to be put in that position.

 

[ruston]

Hopefully never need to be put in that position.

You never know what tomorrow brings.

You have to go through the fine print of your terms and conditions. They are ruthless.

 

[Leesparkykent]

A lot of sparkies complain about how difficult it is to get a JIB card.
Surely that's the point though.
If you have to meet certain criteria and no exceptions you will help sort competence within the trade out.
Its not foolproof but its going in the right direction imho and that includes the 2391 cus it all helps to stop Electrical Trainee getting on the band wagon.
I have even noticed that the facilities managers in a small number of large companies are insisting on seeing operatives JIB gold cards before being let loose on there installations.
And that's regardless of the big shiny van all labelled up with its nice company logo and NICEIC sticker on the side.
Good for them I say.

this is very true. We changed nearly all the metal halide fittings in the warehouse at united biscuits in harlesden London for light harvesting t5 fittings with PIR,s and the head honcho wouldn't let any of my lads on site without showing jib cards and he also wanted to see every ones certificates as well.

 

[7029 dave]

Anyone with out the 2391 shouldn't be dabbling in electrics anyway lol

I don't.

 

[CockneyReject]

***Update***

Just talked to the tech helpdesk and the IET.

This is happening towards the end of this year, possibly early next year. It is being driven by IET and insurance companies.

This is due apparently to the falling standards of EICRs that insurance companies are being sent.

No assessment will be required however you will need to have Professional Indemnity insurance to complete EICRs and in order to get this PI insurance you will need to produce a copy of 2391 to the Insurance companies, or the new version of it. 2392 will NOT be accepted apparently.
New EICR forms will "very probably contain a section where you will need to insert your PI insurance details"

It is what was described to me as "an extension of the change in the new regs from competent person to electrically competent person" and will therefore not need a change to the 2015 ammendment of 17th Edition.

How they police it is another matter

About time something happened, some of the PIR/EICR's I've been handed over the last few years have been appalling, there's too many lads out there doing them who haven't got a scooby about how to go about carrying one out, a recent one I was given for a factory had a full test for the office and canteen DB and then just a big list of observations for the rest of the install with crap like "cable needs replacing" and "isolator broken" they hadn't bothered to test or even look inside and record details of the 8 3 phase DB's dotted around the machine shops

I read this with a mixture of feelings.

Great news that finally qualifications are being recognised. Good knows what the DI will do?

PI insurance is expensive and will be difficult for smaller companies surely.

Personally I cannot see this happening.

Hopefully all the chancers and blaggers will stop charging a few quid for EICR's and PI insurance isn't that expensive I've never struggled with paying out for mine or moaned about it either and mine covers 3 phase and hazardous areas also as does my PL insurance, it's a small price to pay for piece of mind

Agreed. Not required for testing as I said.

BUT with an EICR your not just testing your filling in/writing a report

Correct me if I am wrong but we are told by the NIC not to provide advice as part of the EICR. It should only be a report on what the installation is. So, you should not write "recommend a re-wire" or anything like that. Points such as "socket within the hall is broken and has exposed conductive parts".

No advice should be on that report.

The advice would form part of the quotation/design that follows after the report.

Your wrong, when you do your 2394/95 or your 2391 your taught that you keep observations relevant to the install and only note defects that are found and not recommendations on how to fix them, also who gives a s**t what the NIC think/say they are a bunch of money grabbing chancers, they get all their "guidance" from the regs and the IET they aren't the electric police that they are made out to be

so if there's no advice on the report what are YOUR observations (if you have any) there's also the summary of the condition of the installation section which is in YOUR own words oh and the recommendations sections where YOU give a period of time between this inspection and the next one be it the provided guidelines or one of your own depending on the test results and the condition of the install, it's all opinion and advice isn't it? If you gave 10 lads on here who were experienced in carrying out inspections an install to carry out an EICR on I bet the reports would vary as everyone's got their own opinions and interpret the regs in different ways

A lot of sparkies complain about how difficult it is to get a JIB card.
Surely that's the point though.
If you have to meet certain criteria and no exceptions you will help sort competence within the trade out.
Its not foolproof but its going in the right direction imho and that includes the 2391 cus it all helps to stop Electrical Trainee getting on the band wagon.
I have even noticed that the facilities managers in a small number of large companies are insisting on seeing operatives JIB gold cards before being let loose on there installations.
And that's regardless of the big shiny van all labelled up with its nice company logo and NICEIC sticker on the side.
Good for them I say.

I couldn't agree more mate, the more people who ask to see quals and cards and won't allow the chancers on site the better, if this move with EICR's does go ahead it's a small step in the right direction

 

[Guest125]

Your wrong, when you do your 2394/95 or your 2391 your taught that you keep observations relevant to the install and only note defects that are found and not recommendations on how to fix them, also who gives a s**t what the NIC think/say they are a bunch of money grabbing chancers, they get all their "guidance" from the regs and the IET they aren't the electric police that they are made out to be

so if there's no advice on the report what are YOUR observations (if you have any) there's also the summary of the condition of the installation section which is in YOUR own words oh and the recommendations sections where YOU give a period of time between this inspection and the next one be it the provided guidelines or one of your own depending on the test results and the condition of the install, it's all opinion and advice isn't it? If you gave 10 lads on here who were experienced in carrying out inspections an install to carry out an EICR on I bet the reports would vary as everyone's got their own opinions and interpret the regs in different ways

Exactly what I said.

My clients give a **** and they pay me a lot of money. Good enough reason in my book.

 

[CockneyReject]

Correct me if I am wrong but we are told by the NIC not to provide advice as part of the EICR. It should only be a report on what the installation is. So, you should not write "recommend a re-wire" or anything like that. Points such as "socket within the hall is broken and has exposed conductive parts".

No advice should be on that report.

The advice would form part of the quotation/design that follows after the report.

Your wrong, when you do your 2394/95 or your 2391 your taught that you keep observations relevant to the install and only note defects that are found and not recommendations on how to fix them, also who gives a s**t what the NIC think/say they are a bunch of money grabbing chancers, they get all their "guidance" from the regs and the IET they aren't the electric police that they are made out to be

Not exactly mate, best get those reading glasses looked at

 

[Deleted member 26818]

A PIR/EICR is report which details the inspection and testing carried out by the author, and contains his/her opinion as to whether the installation being reported on is safe/unsafe for continued use.
The author uses his/her judgment, experience and knowledge when applying codes for defects, omissions and non-compliances.
When conducting initial verification, no codes are applied, as all defects, omissions and non-compliances are required to be rectified before any certification is produced.

The problem that I have with the 2391, is that there are many electricians who hold the qualification, yet have no experience or even basic understanding of how to conduct I&T.
The problem I have with NICEIC so called 'inspectors' is that the NICEIC allow the use of a 'Visual Condition Report' in place of an EICR.
The problem I have with the ECA, is that they use a so called 'meiwc' which can be used for up to 3 circuits.
Neither the NICEIC 'Visual Condition Report' nor the ECA 3 circuit 'meiwc' comply with BS7671, yet as far as I am aware they both indicate that they do comply.

 

[Guest125]

A PIR/EICR is report wich details the inspection and testing carried out by the author, and contains his/her opinion as to whether the installation being reported on is safe/unsafe for continued use.
The author uses his/her judgment, experience and knowledge when applying codes for defects, omissions and non-compliances.
When conducting initial verification, no codes are applied, as all defects, omissions and non-compliances are required to be rectified before any certification is produced.

The problem that I have with the 2391, is that there are many electricians who hold the qualification, yet have no experience or even basic understanding of how to conduct I&T.
The problem I have with NICEIC so called 'inspectors' is that the NICEIC allow the use of a 'Visual Condition Report' in place of an EICR.
The problem I have with the ECA, is that they use a so called 'meiwc' which can be used for up to 3 circuits.
Neither the NICEIC 'Visual Condition Report' nor the ECA 3 circuit 'meiwc' comply with BS7671, yet as far as I am aware they both indicate that they do comply.

We carry out a lot of VICRs. We are asked to do them yearly in between the 5 yearly EICR. They have their place but should not replace the 5 yearly ET&I.

 

[Octopus]

We carry out a lot of VICRs. We are asked to do them yearly in between the 5 yearly EICR. They have their place but should not replace the 5 yearly ET&I.

On what?

 

[telectrix]

On what?

trains. wheels, 2.4.6.8..pass.
T

 

[Guest125]

On what?

Depots, signal boxes, etc. We go in and do a full ppm. Part of that ppm is providing a list of visual defects. With the abuse these depots get it is a good idea. We also get a decent amount of remedial works for it. Lights not working, broken sockets, RCD test buttons faulty etc etc...

 

[Industspark]

I have a question on all this and appreciate any advise. I done my 2394/95 (still low pass rate as 2391 which should be) in the last 6 months and we covered the EICR's in detail.

Here's what i dont understand. I'm employed for a non-electrical company and my role is facilities electrical engineer. I manage contractors, install, maintain and Inspection & Test a large factory with 1000+ employee's.

Due to fact i'm employed by the company, do i now need PI ?.
As i'm not part of schemes such as NIC,Napit etc due to being static work place for industrial and commercial only.

 

[ruston]

If it is in your job description and done under their authority and instruction ,and you have the relevant experience and training I very much doubt it.

 

[Engineer54]

I have a question on all this and appreciate any advise. I done my 2394/95 (still low pass rate as 2391 which should be) in the last 6 months and we covered the EICR's in detail.

Here's what i dont understand. I'm employed for a non-electrical company and my role is facilities electrical engineer. I manage contractors, install, maintain and Inspection & Test a large factory with 1000+ employee's.

Due to fact i'm employed by the company, do i now need PI ?.
As i'm not part of schemes such as NIC,Napit etc due to being static work place for industrial and commercial only.

Being a PAYE employee you are (or should be) covered by the companies insurance policies.

 

[ruston]

But it is still your responsibility to do it right under the relevant acts etc, but I expect you already know that.

 

[GB.Kayak]

I have a question on all this and appreciate any advise. I done my 2394/95 (still low pass rate as 2391 which should be) in the last 6 months and we covered the EICR's in detail.

Here's what i dont understand. I'm employed for a non-electrical company and my role is facilities electrical engineer. I manage contractors, install, maintain and Inspection & Test a large factory with 1000+ employee's.

Due to fact i'm employed by the company, do i now need PI ?.
As i'm not part of schemes such as NIC,Napit etc due to being static work place for industrial and commercial only.

Though your activities come under your employer's umbrella, for insurance purposes, it may be that the company's insurers require certain levels of competency which are assured by your membership of a professional body. If your job title is as an 'electrical engineer', I would expect a membership at a suitable level in the IET would be more suitable. If, however, your job is the inspection and testing then it may be that one of the 'schemes' are more suitable. Your choice of registration will depend upon your qualification(s), level of experience and any training or professional development schemes that your employer is party to or that you can persuade your employer they need for 'safe' activity under the Health and Safety at Work Act 1989.

 

[Guest125]

Though your activities come under your employer's umbrella, for insurance purposes, it may be that the company's insurers require certain levels of competency which are assured by your membership of a professional body. If your job title is as an 'electrical engineer', I would expect a membership at a suitable level in the IET would be more suitable. If, however, your job is the inspection and testing then it may be that one of the 'schemes' are more suitable. Your choice of registration will depend upon your qualification(s), level of experience and any training or professional development schemes that your employer is party to or that you can persuade your employer they need for 'safe' activity under the Health and Safety at Work Act 1989.

I would disagree here.

If Industspark is an employee then his company and not him must be registered. He is working underneath their contract of employment and carrying out work on their behalf. If his company are asking him to register with a scam or whomever and for him to carry out works under they umbrella then that would not be appropriate and may well fall foul of employment law.

 

[Industspark]

If it is in your job description and done under their authority and instruction ,and you have the relevant experience and training I very much doubt it.

Thanks. This was my thinking too. I've been sparky for over 10 years, always been contractor until started my current role 10 months ago.
My role is to be the responsible electrical person for the estate, which thankfully is Industrial and commercial.

I certainly glad to have gotten away from the Domestic. Altough i do agree with the regulations so that not any cowboy loose on people's property which they've spent their entire lives struggling to pay for.
That said with all the hoops got to go through, we should be rewarded for compared to other trades.