Competent person and EICR

[TaffyDuck]

I`ve just had my annual coffee drinking exercise otherwise known as Part P assessment.

Obviously we discussed the weather, the price of fish and the new regs. No worries there.

One thing that my assessor did say however was that as of next year an electrician would need to prove his competence PRIOR to carrying out an EICR. According to him at least, as of 2016 only those electricians who hold CG 2391 or its new equivalent will be able to carry them out.

It will no longer be OK to just say you are competent, you will have to prove it.

Could be interesting, assuming he`s right,for those of us with 2391.

 

[TJ Anderson]

How are the schemes going to enforce that? They don't enforce notifiable works being carried out by anybody who wants to, they should address that first.

 

[TaffyDuck]

All I`m doing is saying what I was told by my assessor. I would guess it will be the usual shambles. Maybe, as most things are, it`s in conjunction with the insurance industry, your guess is a s good as mine.

 

[R G]

The Nic assess you at the moment and then give approval for EICRs under you're registration with them only ,then you use their EICR certs , nothing to stop you doing EICRs on your own back , so what the guy is probably saying they will want you to have this for you're own registration with them , and they charge you extra of course for the privilege ,

 

[TaffyDuck]

I`m not with the NIC. I asked that very question and he said that it was going to be a regulation rather than a scheme run thing. More than that I don`t know

 

[Plonker 3]

What a load of tosh you assesor was saying. You dont even need an electrical qualifications to carry out electrical work so saying you need 2391 or equivalent is rubbish. Besides a qualifification doesnt automatically make you competant.

 

[Anthony S]

Anyone with out the 2391 shouldn't be dabbling in electrics anyway lol

 

[Plonker 3]

I`m not with the NIC. I asked that very question and he said that it was going to be a regulation rather than a scheme run thing. More than that I don`t know

So that would mean another amendment, besides you have always needed to be competant to carry out a EICR

 

[Plonker 3]

Anyone with out the 2391 shouldn't be dabbling in electrics anyway lol

Whys that then?

 

[TJ Anderson]

This will be funny then. The National Association of Professional Inspectors and Testers will have members not authorised to carry out periodic inspection and testing (EICR). Very clear for joe public as usual. Love it!!. Maybe they should change it to NAAWS, National Association of Anyone with Screwdriver, it would make more sense really.

 

[stevethesparks]

I`m not with the NIC. I asked that very question and he said that it was going to be a regulation rather than a scheme run thing. More than that I don`t know

That should knock a few subscribers off of their books lol.

 

[TaffyDuck]

Dillb. You may well be right but that`s what he was saying.

I hold 2391 and have tested installations for 20 years or more. If it`s true, and I say "if" then how on earth they are going to police it is beyond me.

As far as competence is concerned I would agree. 2391 just shows you are more likely to be competent than someone without it.

 

[R G]

Some of those guys are contractors anyway , getting paid just for the assessment , so I wouldn't believe all you hear ...

 

[Guest125]

Shouldn't you be competent in everything that you do in your life? That is the problem. One man's competance is another man's incompetance. The whole term is idiotic. You should have been assessed as skilled in testing before you can test by an assesor. Same as we do in all other aspects of our lives.

 

[Anthony S]

Dillb. You may well be right but that`s what he was saying.

I hold 2391 and have tested installations for 20 years or more. If it`s true, and I say "if" then how on earth they are going to police it is beyond me.

As far as competence is concerned I would agree. 2391 just shows you are more likely to be competent than someone without it.

Very low pass rate on this course, found out a lot people.

 

[TaffyDuck]

RG who knows. I did say "if".

I`ll see if the technical dept guys know anything about it later when I get a minute to call them.

 

[Guest125]

Very low pass rate on this course, found out a lot people.

That is what made it worth something.

 

[TaffyDuck]

Very low pass rate on this course, found out a lot people.

That`s true.

 

[Anthony S]

Set up hand in hand with the NIC and City & Guilds

 

[Leesparkykent]

Scams will just run in house training/qualifications with a 100% pass rate if you chuck £500 at them
and the certificate won't be worth the paper it is printed on. Just another way to fill up the board of directors of each scams pension pot. Any way wouldn't affect me as I have my 2391

 

[Octopus]

So how would they Police this?

Sounds like another scheme to prop up their ailing finances..........

 

[Anthony S]

Scams will just run in house training/qualifications with a 100% pass rate if you chuck £500 at them
and the certificate won't be worth the paper it is printed on. Just another way to fill up the board of directors of each scams pension pot. Any way wouldn't affect me as I have my 2391

More and more job adverts are asking for the 2391 along with other papers and the JIB Gold Card etc etc.

I think companies are getting a sick and tired of the wonder Sparks applying for jobs. Another reason why they let Agencies do the donkey work and weed out the Rubbish lol

 

[TaffyDuck]

Scams will just run in house training/qualifications with a 100% pass rate if you chuck £500 at them
and the certificate won't be worth the paper it is printed on. Just another way to fill up the board of directors of each scams pension pot. Any way wouldn't affect me as I have my 2391

Well according to him the schemes wont be running it and no other assessment will be needed. Just concrete proof that you`re competent to complete the EICR.

It just seemed odd that an assessor, and a very knowlegeable one at that, who I`ve known for 5 or 6 years now would just make it up. It doesn`t make sense for him to do that.

 

[Guest125]

More and more job adverts are asking for the 2391 along with other papers and the JIB Gold Card etc etc.

I think companies are getting a sick and tired of the wonder Sparks applying for jobs. Another reason why they let Agencies do the donkey work and weed out the Rubbish lol

Well this is a good thing then. Only those without 2391 would be against this surely. If it is true that is.

 

[TaffyDuck]

***Update***

Just talked to the tech helpdesk and the IET.

This is happening towards the end of this year, possibly early next year. It is being driven by IET and insurance companies.

This is due apparently to the falling standards of EICRs that insurance companies are being sent.

No assessment will be required however you will need to have Professional Indemnity insurance to complete EICRs and in order to get this PI insurance you will need to produce a copy of 2391 to the Insurance companies, or the new version of it. 2392 will NOT be accepted apparently.
New EICR forms will "very probably contain a section where you will need to insert your PI insurance details"

It is what was described to me as "an extension of the change in the new regs from competent person to electrically competent person" and will therefore not need a change to the 2015 ammendment of 17th Edition.

How they police it is another matter

 

[Farmelectrics]

jib card or no electrical work would be agood starting point for me

 

[Anthony S]

jib card or no electrical work would be agood starting point for me

Get in there lol

 

[Guest125]

***Update***

Just talked to the tech helpdesk and the IET.

This is happening towards the end of this year, possibly early next year. It is being driven by IET and insurance companies.

This is due apparently to the falling standards of EICRs that insurance companies are being sent.

No assessment will be required however you will need to have Professional Indemnity insurance to complete EICRs and in order to get this PI insurance you will need to produce a copy of 2391 to the Insurance companies, or the new version of it. 2392 will NOT be accepted apparently.
New EICR forms will "very probably contain a section where you will need to insert your PI insurance details"

It is what was described to me as "an extension of the change in the new regs from competent person to electrically competent person" and will therefore not need a change to the 2015 ammendment of 17th Edition.

How they police it is another matter

I read this with a mixture of feelings.

Great news that finally qualifications are being recognised. Good knows what the DI will do?

PI insurance is expensive and will be difficult for smaller companies surely.

Personally I cannot see this happening.

 

[TaffyDuck]

I read this with a mixture of feelings.

Great news that finally qualifications are being recognised. Good knows what the DI will do?

PI insurance is expensive and will be difficult for smaller companies surely.

Personally I cannot see this happening.

Maybe you`re right. Who knows. My PI insurance that I have for Inspection and Testing and offers cover for £10m costs about £200 a year with Groupon

 

[Guest125]

Maybe you`re right. Who knows. My PI insurance that I have for Inspection and Testing and offers cover for £10m costs about £200 a year with Groupon

Why would you currently need PI insurance for that? Pi insurance is for design or advice that may be incorrect.

 

[spark 68]

Why would you currently need PI insurance for that? Pi insurance is for design or advice that may be incorrect.

Nope, you need it for providing professional advice/reports etc. aka EICRs

 

[Anthony S]

Why would you currently need PI insurance for that? Pi insurance is for design or advice that may be incorrect.

Because your giving an opinion, I've had it for years.

 

[Guest125]

Because your giving an opinion, I've had it for years.

Maybe splitting hairs but I would not call an EICR my opinion. It is a report on the condition. Definitely not my opinion.

 

[ruston]

I have been knocked back by two insurance companies recently who will ONLY accept NICIEC approved contractors. No amount of talking to them made any difference, one of them would not accept new business unless one(from nic) was already current. To be fair this needs changing.

As regards only accepting 2391 , this is a recipe for disaster too, as a lot of the schemes run their equivalent exams , I believe the EAL do too. What is going to happen when the 2391 holders are all gone lol? Surely the must accept the new equivalent .

 

[Guest125]

I can understand if your were designing emergency lighting or fire alarm installation PI insurance would be essential. But for testing surely PL is what is required?

 

[Anthony S]

Maybe splitting hairs but I would not call an EICR my opinion. It is a report on the condition. Definitely not my opinion.

Opinion = Assessment

 

[spark 68]

I can understand if your were designing emergency lighting or fire alarm installation PI insurance would be essential. But for testing surely PL is what is required?

For testing and EICs PL yes, for providing written reports/advice then PI is required

 

[Guest125]

For testing and EICs PL yes, for providing written reports/advice then PI is required

Agreed. Not required for testing as I said.

 

[baldsparkies]

jib card or no electrical work would be agood starting point for me

A lot of sparkies complain about how difficult it is to get a JIB card.
Surely that's the point though.
If you have to meet certain criteria and no exceptions you will help sort competence within the trade out.
Its not foolproof but its going in the right direction imho and that includes the 2391 cus it all helps to stop Electrical Trainee getting on the band wagon.
I have even noticed that the facilities managers in a small number of large companies are insisting on seeing operatives JIB gold cards before being let loose on there installations.
And that's regardless of the big shiny van all labelled up with its nice company logo and NICEIC sticker on the side.
Good for them I say.

 

[spark 68]

Agreed. Not required for testing as I said.

But for providing EICRs you do need PI, also a lot of DIs are not insured for three phase which I will bet they are not aware of

 

[ruston]

But for providing EICRs you do need PI, also a lot of DIs are not insured for three phase which I will bet they are not aware of

Or working with flame, I'ts a minefield.

 

[Anthony S]

People hide behind the NIC logo they own/run a company are not qualified and get some mug to become their QS and more a less front the company.

At least holding a JIB ticket with all your papers your never be out of work and can always earn a living.

 

[Guest125]

But for providing EICRs you do need PI, also a lot of DIs are not insured for three phase which I will bet they are not aware of

Correct me if I am wrong but we are told by the NIC not to provide advice as part of the EICR. It should only be a report on what the installation is. So, you should not write "recommend a re-wire" or anything like that. Points such as "socket within the hall is broken and has exposed conductive parts".

No advice should be on that report.

The advice would form part of the quotation/design that follows after the report.

 

[Guest125]

People hide behind the NIC logo they own/run a company are not qualified and get some mug to become their QS and more a less front the company.

At least holding a JIB ticket with all your papers your never be out of work and can always earn a living.

The QS must be a full time employee.

 

[spark 68]

Correct me if I am wrong but we are told by the NIC not to provide advice as part of the EICR. It should only be a report on what the installation is. So, you should not write "recommend a re-wire" or anything like that. Points such as "socket within the hall is broken and has exposed conductive parts".

No advice should be on that report.

The advice would form part of the quotation/design that follows after the report.

Sigh :wink_smile: Do you think I like paying more for my insurance than I would need to ? uke:

 

[Anthony S]

The QS must be a full time employee.

That don't mean on the cards, means they spent the majority of there working time with that particular company.

I know this because I have been a QS for a NICEIC company for a mate (got paid well) and also had my own full scope NAPIT running at the same time.

I don't think anything as changed since 10 year ago, they only want money.

 

[Guest125]

Sigh :wink_smile: Do you think I like paying more for my insurance than I would need to ? uke:

We sub our design work out. Imagine what my PI insurance would be on the railways?

 

[Guest125]

That don't mean on the cards, means they spent the majority of there working time with that particular company.

I know this because I have been a QS for a NICEIC company for a mate (got paid well) and also had my own full scope NAPIT running at the same time.

That should not have happened. A full time employee is exactly that. PAYE. A sub-contractor/consultant should not be allowed to QS for anyone.

 

[Guest125]

That should not have happened. A full time employee is exactly that. PAYE. A sub-contractor/consultant should not be allowed to QS for anyone.

But saying this I now realise that although this is written in there terms no checks were made by the NICEIC to ascertain that I was actually who I said I was and that I was a PAYE employee contracted to the company.

 

[spark 68]

On an EICR what do you think a C3 is ? A a recommendation that improvement is required.

That aside you are giving a professional opinion that either the installation is safe for continued use, or not, whichever the case may be, hence the PI.