UK Cowboy electrician

[Bob Geldoff1234]

This was installed by an "electrician" 4 months ago.Single RCD feeding 5 breakers for a two bedroom,two story house.
The lady was charged £675 for this crap and was told she'd get a certificate,which no matter how much she rings them up,doesn't seem to be forth coming.I wonder why?
It really makes my blood boil when I see stuff like this and they even get away with charging over the odds for it.

 

[Dustydazzler]

That’s absolutely criminal....

who in their right mind starts with the lowest breaker next to the main switch

 

[Ian1981]

Least it’s an A type 100 amp Rccb.
Rcbos would obviously be more desirable

 

[pc1966]

I wonder about the blue tape on the incoming neutral.

 

[Ian1981]

I wonder about the blue tape on the incoming neutral.

Maybe the tails where both red coloured as the original installer had no black?
If it was black then it might as well have been left.

 

[pc1966]

Maybe the tails where both red coloured as the original installer had no black?

OK, that would explain it, but it still looks dodgy as in "what is this hiding" sort of way!

 

[Ian1981]

OK, that would explain it, but it still looks dodgy as in "what is this hiding" sort of way!

Yeah I know where you’re coming from.

 

[Bob Geldoff1234]

If your changing the board,then at least put in either dual RCD's or the best option,a main switch with 5 RCBO's.This install is not to BS7671 due to the RCD tripping and putting the whole house without electricity.So even though we have Part P,schemes inspecting our work etc this individual has still come in and done a substandard job,overcharged for it and done no paperwork.I sometimes wonder why we bother because no one seems to be held accountable and shoddy work just keeps being done.

 

[ChrisElectrical88]

For a supposed cowboy job, it’s pretty neat. Type A 100A RCD, Metal enclosure. If it was a main switch and RCBOs it would be a cracking little board. Price is a bit steep

 

[Dustydazzler]

If that was an rcbo board would we even question 600 quid ?

 

[Bob Geldoff1234]

But if your a fully qualified 18th edition electrician then you should know that putting a single RCD on a house is a no-no.The lady said that he didn't do any testing around the house,took no readings and obviously no certs.It makes me wonder if this was done by a 3 week wonder?

 

[casperLennon]

I think price in this instance is irrelevant

 

[Dustydazzler]

The lack of any testing Is a bit rogue....
even if you can’t be arsed to issue a full cert atleast do a Ze , Zs and rcd trip times and fill out some level of paper work for the customer

 

[James]

we are trying to avoid discriminating against the short course qualified sparks, some may have a longstanding expertise in electrical work.

I would say, looking at it that the spark in question knew what they were doing.
they probably knew what they should be installing.

It's a strange blend of attention to detail in of forming the cables to look neat, and using a cheap board with unsuitable rcd protection etc.

It is in my opinion, someone who knows what they should do but works with the motto "that will do"

bet they are not traceable through a scheme.

 

[Dustydazzler]

With rcbos being so cheap now there really was no excuse for a front end rcd

it almost smacks of they had the board in the back of the van and just said ‘that will do’

 

[telectrix]

That’s absolutely criminal....

who in their right mind starts with the lowest breaker next to the main switch

years ago, it used to be the norm to put the highest rated MCB next to the main switch and scale down along the busbar. it was as pointless then as it is now. my preference is not to put heavily loaded MCBs adjacent to each other, irrespective of rating.this is so you don't end up with 2 warm breakers warning each other.

 

[Welchyboy1]

Compared to some of the stuff i see most weeks i wouldnt of even raised an eyebrow to that!

 

[ipf]

What's at the other end of the tails?

Maybe it doesn't look too bad but BG is correct....she's been fobbed off.
Who knows the state of the installation as a whole? Whoever the installer, they should know the dangers involved and do the necessary before starting.

 

[Grant1987]

But if your a fully qualified 18th edition electrician then you should know that putting a single RCD on a house is a no-no.The lady said that he didn't do any testing around the house,took no readings and obviously no certs.It makes me wonder if this was done by a 3 week wonder?

Mate on here a lot of sparks argue with me for reasons not to have an RCD let alone 2. I always state a dual rcd split load consumer all the way and trying to comply with recommended board schedule layout yet most are happy with semi enclosed 3036. Good on you for pointing out this poor install.

 

[nicebutdim]

Mate on here a lot of sparks argue with me for reasons not to have an RCD let alone 2. I always state a dual rcd split load consumer all the way and trying to comply with recommended board schedule layout yet most are happy with semi enclosed 3036. Good on you for pointing out this poor install.

Surely comparing BS3036 re-wireable fuses with a single upfront 30mA RCD is akin to comparing apples with tennis balls?

 

[Grant1987]

Surely comparing BS3036 re-wireable fuses with a single upfront 30mA RCD is akin to comparing apples with tennis balls?

Yes that’s been my point for months, years ?
[automerge]1597268848[/automerge]

Yes that’s been my point for months, years ?

My point has always been to upgrade and the fact that this particular post has an rcd is a relief to me. Although still not up to my standards it’s nice to see it’s covered with rcd

 

[nicebutdim]

Yes that’s been my point for months, years ?

The difference being that, aside from lacking RCD protection, that old installation may be perfectly fine and will have met the regulations in place at time of installation.

The issue highlighted by the OP is a new installation that doesn't comply with current regulations.

 

[static zap]

who in their right mind starts with the lowest breaker next to the main switch

I understand this , his aim was to break "Every rule" ..Defies common sense as well !

 

[nicebutdim]

My point has always been to upgrade and the fact that this particular post has an rcd is a relief to me. Although still not up to my standards it’s nice to see it’s covered with rcd

You state a preference for dual RCD boards which obviously meet current regulations (other than TT systems I believe), but why not recommend RCBO boards given that they are now available for little additional cost? Less chance of nuisance tripping for the customer and simpler fault finding, should problems occur in the future.

 

[ipf]

Surely comparing BS3036 re-wireable fuses with a single upfront 30mA RCD is akin to comparing apples with tennis balls?

Depends on the situation and reason for comparison, but it's not particularly unusual to find such a CU fed via a 30mA ELCB or RCD.

 

[Grant1987]

The difference being that, aside from lacking RCD protection, that old installation may be perfectly fine and will have met the regulations in place at time of installation.

The issue highlighted by the OP is a new installation that doesn't comply with current regulations.

Ahh no don’t fall into that trap as all the older more experienced electricians always mention about deviations from BS7671 yes at time of the install 40 years ago!!! It was fine. You test to the current regulations and times have changed unfortunately and our standards have improved. Dont lick arse on here to impress ppl
[automerge]1597269539[/automerge]

You state a preference for dual RCD boards which obviously meet current regulations (other than TT systems I believe), but why not recommend RCBO boards given that they are now available for little additional cost? Less chance of nuisance tripping for the customer and simpler fault finding, should problems occur in the future.

RCBO’s ??? you’re winding me up here surely do you know how much they cost?

 

[nicebutdim]

Ahh no don’t fall into that trap as all the older more experienced electricians always mention about deviations from BS7671 yes at time of the install 40 years ago!!! It was fine. You test to the current regulations and times have changed unfortunately and our standards have improved. Dont lick arse on here to impress ppl

I'm not licking anyone's arse and I'm more than happy to stand corrected on any issue.

If you were testing the installation pictured in the first post, would it not be deemed unsatisfactory as it doesn't meet the regulations in place at the time of installation - ie the current regulations.

It's all very well having strong opinions about old installations, but it's a bit odd to defend a non-compliant new installation in the process of doing so.

 

[Mark Wright]

That’s absolutely criminal....

who in their right mind starts with the lowest breaker next to the main switch

What has that got to do with anything?

 

[nicebutdim]

RCBO’s ??? you’re winding me up here surely do you know how much they cost?

About £12 nett for Fusebox Type A RCBOs.
[automerge]1597270275[/automerge]

Depends on the situation and reason for comparison, but it's not particularly unusual to find such a CU fed via a 30mA ELCB or RCD.

Indeed.

That reminds me of yet another cowboy electrician that worked on my parent's house. Many, many years ago someone explained to them why it was necessary to fit an ELCB, so they gave them the go ahead to do so. The ELCB was duly mounted by their meter, but never connected to the supply - sat there for decades with cable knockouts intact, while they assumed everything was much safer than before.

 

[Grant1987]

I'm not licking anyone's arse and I'm more than happy to stand corrected on any issue.

If you were testing the installation pictured in the first post, would it not be deemed unsatisfactory as it doesn't meet the regulations in place at the time of installation - ie the current regulations.

It's all very well having strong opinions about old installations, but it's a bit odd to defend a non-compliant new installation in the process of doing so.

I didn’t say it was non compliant I said it was nice to see an rcd let alone 2 of them which I would prefer. This isn’t non compliant on the way I’m saying Rcd protection for lights and sockets for potential outdoor use. The other points then yes it’s not great but I’m stating I’m happy to see an rcd. Mate you seem like your fairly new to electrics don’t look for reasons to not upgrade look for reasons to improve safety
[automerge]1597270677[/automerge]

About £12 nett for Fusebox Type A RCBOs.
[automerge]1597270275[/automerge]


Indeed.

That reminds me of yet another cowboy electrician that worked on my parent's house. Many, many years ago someone explained to them why it was necessary to fit an ELCB, so they gave them the go ahead to do so. The ELCB was duly mounted by their meter, but never connected to the supply - sat there for decades with cable knockouts intact, while they assumed everything was much safer than before.

About £12 nett for Fusebox Type A RCBOs.
[automerge]1597270275[/automerge]


Indeed.

That reminds me of yet another cowboy electrician that worked on my parent's house. Many, many years ago someone explained to them why it was necessary to fit an ELCB, so they gave them the go ahead to do so. The ELCB was duly mounted by their meter, but never connected to the supply - sat there for decades with cable knockouts intact, while they assumed everything was much safer than before.

£12 nett rcbos? Wtf are they mate ? most common rcbos are £30 a pop Minimal and if you were doing a consumer unit upgrade you wudn be buying rcbos
[automerge]1597272035[/automerge]

What has that got to do with anything?

Think it has sumin to do with discrimination, I would never put the lowest sized breaker next to rcd just common practice to go down in size is that what you do?

 

[ipf]

I'm not licking anyone's arse and I'm more than happy to stand corrected on any issue.

If you were testing the installation pictured in the first post, would it not be deemed unsatisfactory as it doesn't meet the regulations in place at the time of installation - ie the current regulations.

It's all very well having strong opinions about old installations, but it's a bit odd to defend a non-compliant new installation in the process of doing so.

The only problem you have there is that, if an independent EICR was undertaken on that particular installation, it could well be deemed satisfactory....full of C3's.

 

[nicebutdim]

I didn’t say it was non compliant I said it was nice to see an rcd let alone 2 of them which I would prefer. This isn’t non compliant on the way I’m saying Rcd protection for lights and sockets for potential outdoor use. The other points then yes it’s not great but I’m stating I’m happy to see an rcd. Mate you seem like your fairly new to electrics don’t look for reasons to not upgrade look for reasons to improve safety
[automerge]1597270677[/automerge]


£12 nett rcbos? Wtf are they mate ? most common rcbos are £30 a pop Minimal and if you were doing a consumer unit upgrade you wudn be buying rcbos

Given that the installation in question is 4 months old, it's hardly surprising that RCD protection is included - it would have taken a bit of effort to source a CU that didn't include some form of RCCB.

I'm not an electrician and nor do I claim to be and I'm certainly not looking "for reasons to not upgrade". As it happens, it was improving electrical safety that led me down the route of seeking to retrain.

You seem to be under the impression that I'm trying to score points or adopting an adversarial position, but that couldn't be further from the truth. I asked a question about a comment you posted and, rather than answer it, you decided to go down the route of making personal comments.

As for £12 RCBOs; I'm not here to assist anyone with their procurement process - at least not without first discussing renumeration. If you want to assume prices rather than check them, far be it from me to tell you how to run your business.

 

[Mark Wright]

"Think it has sumin to do with discrimination, I would never put the lowest sized breaker next to rcd just common practice to go down in size is that what you do?"

I suppose it's neater that's it but not always possible when replacing a board.

Edit:it is common like you say, I can see a whole thread on the topic

 

[nicebutdim]

The only problem you have there is that, if an independent EICR was undertaken on that particular installation, it could well be deemed satisfactory....full of C3's.

Thank you!

We know from the OP that no EIC was issued to the customer, but what would be the situation be if the installer had done so with this choice of CU?

 

[davesparks]

it would have taken a bit of effort to source a CU that didn't include some form of RCCB.

It would take no more effort than a CU with an RCCB, all you have to do is walk in to the wholesalers and ask for one.

 

[telectrix]

I didn’t say it was non compliant I said it was nice to see an rcd let alone 2 of them which I would prefer. This isn’t non compliant on the way I’m saying Rcd protection for lights and sockets for potential outdoor use. The other points then yes it’s not great but I’m stating I’m happy to see an rcd. Mate you seem like your fairly new to electrics don’t look for reasons to not upgrade look for reasons to improve safety
[automerge]1597270677[/automerge]


£12 nett rcbos? Wtf are they mate ? most common rcbos are £30 a pop Minimal and if you were doing a consumer unit upgrade you wudn be buying rcbos
[automerge]1597272035[/automerge]

Think it has sumin to do with discrimination, I would never put the lowest sized breaker next to rcd just common practice to go down in size is that what you do?

tghe wholepoint of the thread is not that it's safer with a single RCD, but that the install is not compliant with current regs. and the customer has been ripped off.
i use BG gear as standard. compact RCBOs are £16 odd, I would have done that as all RCBOs, with 2 spare ways for under £600 with a full teat test of the installation and a EIC provided.

 

[Grant1987]

Ah right I was under the impression you had carried out plenty of EICRs and knew what you was talking about, yes I do know my prices of rcbos that’s for sure And £12 “NETT” I’ve never heard of ?‍ No I’m not trying to be personal but you have posted numerous times against my opinions when I’ve posted.

 

[nicebutdim]

It would take no more effort than a CU with an RCCB, all you have to do is walk in to the wholesalers and ask for one.

Fair point about a flippant comment, but you get what I was driving at.

 

[Grant1987]

tghe wholepoint of the thread is not that it's safer with a single RCD, but that the install is not compliant with current regs. and the customer has been ripped off.
i use BG gear as standard. compact RCBOs are £16 odd, I would have done that as all RCBOs, with 2 spare ways for under £600 with a full teat test of the installation and a EIC provided.

Ok so on total cost of materials you were looking at £150 for BG consumer with 6 x rcbos?
[automerge]1597273105[/automerge]

tghe wholepoint of the thread is not that it's safer with a single RCD, but that the install is not compliant with current regs. and the customer has been ripped off.
i use BG gear as standard. compact RCBOs are £16 odd, I would have done that as all RCBOs, with 2 spare ways for under £600 with a full teat test of the installation and a EIC provided.

Also just curious why do you use rcbos rather than dual rcds?

 

[telectrix]

Ok so on total cost of materials you were looking at £150 for BG consumer with 6 x rcbos?
[automerge]1597273105[/automerge]

Also just curious why do you use rcbos rather than dual rcds?

not far out. think about £170 inc vat. bear in mind that within the price i posted, I'd remedy 1 or 2 small faults e.g. replace a cracked accessory or 2.

 

[ipf]

Also just curious why do you use rcbos rather than dual rcds?

Much better, all round. Things tend to be moving that way too, at last.

 

[nicebutdim]

Ah right I was under the impression you had carried out plenty of EICRs and knew what you was talking about, yes I do know my prices of rcbos that’s for sure And £12 “NETT” I’ve never heard of ?‍ No I’m not trying to be personal but you have posted numerous times against my opinions when I’ve posted.

£12 nett of VAT - perhaps I should have been clearer on that point. There have now been two options posted in this thread for RCBOs well under your price of £30 - CP Fusebox and BG - both of which are roughly half of that.

I've asked several questions about posts you've made when I couldn't understand the reasoning behind them. I'm not "for" or against anyone's opinions, but tend to ask questions when I can not make sense of a comment in threads I've been following - that's not to say the comment is necessarily flawed, but simply that I don't understand why a particular point is being made.
[automerge]1597273451[/automerge]

Also just curious why do you use rcbos rather than dual rcds?

I gave some reasons when asking why you prefer dual RCD boards.

Cowboy electrician

This was installed by an "electrician" 4 months ago.Single RCD feeding 5 breakers for a two bedroom,two story house. The lady was charged £675 for this crap and was told she'd get a certificate,which no matter how much she rings them up,doesn't seem to be forth coming.I wonder why? It really...

www.electriciansforums.net

 

[Grant1987]

Much better, all round. Things tend to be moving that way too, at last.

i don’t agree with that from what I gather we are having dual rcd consumers as recommended for paat few years
[automerge]1597274032[/automerge]

£12 nett of VAT - perhaps I should have been clearer on that point. There have now been two options posted in this thread for RCBOs well under your price of £30 - CP Fusebox and BG - both of which are roughly half of that.

I've asked several questions about posts you've made when I couldn't understand the reasoning behind them. I'm not "for" or against anyone's opinions, but tend to ask questions when I can not make sense of a comment in threads I've been following - that's not to say the comment is necessarily flawed, but simply that I don't understand why a particular point is being made.
[automerge]1597273451[/automerge]


I gave some reasons when asking why you prefer dual RCD boards.

Cowboy electrician

This was installed by an "electrician" 4 months ago.Single RCD feeding 5 breakers for a two bedroom,two story house. The lady was charged £675 for this crap and was told she'd get a certificate,which no matter how much she rings them up,doesn't seem to be forth coming.I wonder why? It really...

www.electriciansforums.net

Well I’ve not come across rcbos £12 I’ll be honest but I take your word for it I’ll google it to see if those brands are stocked in reputable electrical wholesalers or from “CHYYNNA” ?

 

[telectrix]

dual RCD boards are a get around the reg; about inconvenience etc. caused by loss of whole house due to a fault, in the cheapest way. better than a single RCD but not as good as RCBOs, esp. as the price of RCBOs has come down to an acceptable levl and compact RCDOs without the earth tail overcome the problem of no room above to decently dress in cables.

 

[Grant1987]

dual RCD boards are a get around the reg; about inconvenience etc. caused by loss of whole house due to a fault, in the cheapest way. better than a single RCD but not as good as RCBOs, esp. as the price of RCBOs has come down to an acceptable levl and compact RCDOs without the earth tail overcome the problem of no room above to decently dress in cables.

Aslong as your capable of fault finding then having a few circuits on the rcd isn’t an issue if there was a fault on let’s say down ring can easily ditch Faulty leg and convert to 2 radials so it’s not an issue really what would you do if you had same fault on the rcbo? Leave them without power cos you cudn find the fault?
[automerge]1597274572[/automerge]

Aslong as your capable of fault finding then having a few circuits on the rcd isn’t an issue if there was a fault on let’s say down ring can easily ditch Faulty leg and convert to 2 radials so it’s not an issue really what would you do if you had same fault on the rcbo? Leave them without power cos you cudn find the fault?

No difference is there? Better with rcbos why?? If there’s fault you still need to rectify it Don’t you. Suppose many sparks can’t fault find or do heating controls don’t suppose your one of them telectrix?

 

[telectrix]

Aslong as your capable of fault finding then having a few circuits on the rcd isn’t an issue if there was a fault on let’s say down ring can easily ditch Faulty leg and convert to 2 radials so it’s not an issue really what would you do if you had same fault on the rcbo? Leave them without power cos you cudn find the fault?

totally irelevant. if you have a circuit fault tripping a RCBO it's ony 1 circuit dead till you can return next day with time to find the fault. with a dual RCD board, 1 trips and customer has, hopefully half his sockets and half his lights working. use of extension lead/s and or plug in lights will see him through. single RCD and he's got no TV, no freezer, no cooking, no lights.

 

[Grant1987]

totally irelevant. if you have a circuit fault tripping a RCBO it's ony 1 circuit dead till you can return next day with time to find the fault. with a dual RCD board, 1 trips and customer has, hopefully half his sockets and half his lights working. use of extension lead/s and or plug in lights will see him through. single RCD and he's got no TV, no freezer, no cooking, no lights.

NO, you do the fault finding there and then I would never leave a customer with 4 or 5 circuits without power untill next day. Why would you do that???
[automerge]1597275113[/automerge]

NO, you do the fault finding there and then I would never leave a customer with 4 or 5 circuits without power untill next day. Why would you do that???

Infact you’ve answered my previous post of not being able to fault find. Once you learn how to fault find using your multi function tester with the adaptor it’s easy rather than guessing with disconnecting sockets and all that ? cracks me up
[automerge]1597275306[/automerge]

NO, you do the fault finding there and then I would never leave a customer with 4 or 5 circuits without power untill next day. Why would you do that???
[automerge]1597275113[/automerge]

Infact you’ve answered my previous post of not being able to fault find. Once you learn how to fault find using your multi function tester with the adaptor it’s easy rather than guessing with disconnecting sockets and all that ? cracks me up

That was a ridiculous post I would never leave a customer with any of what you mentioned once you learn how to fault find properly it’s easy. Goes to show you can’t teach an old dog new tricks

 

[KennyKen]

With all due respect, this isn’t the hadron collider. I’m starting to think Industrial is easier than domestic in the UK.

 

[davesparks]

NO, you do the fault finding there and then I would never leave a customer with 4 or 5 circuits without power untill next day. Why would you do that???

You've completely missed the point, the problem is faults which occur in the future, after you have completed the job.

The customer may not be able to get an electrician for a couple of days.

 

[telectrix]

That was a ridiculous post I would never leave a customer with any of what you mentioned once you learn how to fault find properly it’s easy. Goes to show you can’t teach an old dog new tricks

sorry, but i resent that. my speciality is fault finding. i have followed no end of sparks that have given upon a fault and found the faults through years of experience. try going out on a call at 11.00pm and all you can do is leave them with as much as possible for the night. e.g. isolate a faulty circuit to reinstate 4 others on a dual RCD board.
i've been out to a metr on fire at 10.30pm; a total loss of electric due to a corroded N under the street ( that as at 8.30 pm ).in both these cases i've had SP Energy out.

lost count of the number of faults i've cleared in 1 call-out. in the last year about a dozen have come off this forum with householders signing up for help. so don't say i can't fault find. OK.