EICR Certificate not issued. Not all circuits RCD protected rated C2

[Grant1987]

Who said electrics was easy? I started with an apprenticeship and collage day release, and then a period just muddling along with everyone else, in the late 90's I returned to UK and every second word out of electricians mouths seemed to be 16th Edition says, and in the end bit the bullet and returned to first college and then university, and yes when I returned I realised how many errors I had been making.

I also realised I was not that good at maths, and I do think there was a lot of luck involved when I got my degree, however it did teach me how to read, and so many things I thought I knew were wrong as been reading about them out of context.

In BS7671:2008 it says "Joints shall not be made in cables except where necessary as a connection into a circuit." however that only refers to exhibitions, shows and stands, it is so easy to hunt the document and miss some preamble as to what this section is talking about. For years I thought a socket had to be at least a meter from a sink, it seems that was 14th edition although I don't have a copy to check.

And of course this is the problem we don't have a library of books to check regulations, we have to make a judgement is this dangerous, is it likely to become dangerous, or will the owner need to modify this in near future and should he be warned.

New showers invariably say RCD must be fitted, and the regulations have said for many years manufactures instructions should be followed, so even if designed in 1960, when fitting a new shower a RCD needs adding, same with boilers, and many other items. I really did expect my cooker with induction hop to say RCD must be fitted but no.

Personally what at 13 years old, (he is over 40 now) my son started to study to be a radio ham, I felt I wanted to protect him, so since around 1992 my house has been RCD protected, however father-in-laws house was sold last year and still had no RCD's fitted and it was him who got me to fit them to protect my son. This house was quickly changed to all RCBO, again I think that makes sense. But I can't give a house a C2 for no RCD however much I like them unless TT.

I never said it was easy but can be easily simplified by upgrading as much as possible which I’m a firm believer of, I can’t give you quotes or reasons to justify my opinion and personal beliefs but I don’t see how you can be happy with a 40,50 year old install number of issues normally no RCD protection being one, especially with sockets having potential to be used for outdoor use. Undersized tails, Earth, bonding. Whole house being on one ring main. 300mm is the required minimum distance from sink or drainer. I know some of this does not mean a C2 or C1 but it’s due an upgrade isn’t it

 

[Ian1981]

You inspect and test to the current edition of the wiring regulations, this is echoed in such guidance as , gn3, electrical safety first best practice guide 4, practically every guidance resource out there, when it was designed has little relevance, it’s safe for continued use or it’s not.
Most non compliance’s will attract a C3 if things like rcd protection in bathrooms is not present, this was not a requirement years ago but it is now an improvement of safety practice and must be recorded as an improvement of safety on the report.
imagine not coding this because the 15 the edition when the installation was designed to did not require it, what is the point of there being a C3 code in the wiring regulations?
To think this would be acceptable is negligent on the inspectors behalf.
Obviously there is no requirement to upgrade an electrical installation to the current edition, there can’t be, you’d be constantly upgrading things, this is what it means when the regulations comment that older installations designed to bs7671 may not necessarily be unsafe, things like plastic Cu’s are an example of this, where not enclosed in a non combustible cabinet, lack of additional protection for cables buried in wall etc.

 

[Vortigern]

Introduction to all regs really;
The Regulations apply to the design, erection and verification of electrical installations, also additions and alterations to existing installations. Existing installations that have been installed in accordance with earlier editions of the Regulations may not comply with this edition in every respect. This does not necessarily mean that they are unsafe
for continued use or require upgrading.




Regs 651.2
NOTE 2: Existing installations may have been designed and installed to conform to previous editions of BS 7671, applicable at the time of their design and erection. This does not necessarily mean that they are unsafe.

By all means comply with the current edition, but fully comply! The above is in the 18th edition. Too many persons of doubtful character insist items must be upgraded.
Personally I would rather (and happily) salvage what is good and improve an existing installation where it manifestly tests out well. In fact it really annoys me on one job the client wanted me to test their light circuit, I did and found >2Mohm etc. and stated it was good for continued use but may be at it's end of life within a couple of years. Another spark, Long intake of breath, "needs replacing sir" (lie!), and I get pilloried by the client for not telling them that!

 

[Ian1981]

All the regulations are saying is that you do not C2 every non compliance with bs7671 because older installations cannot possibly fully comply so it avoids unnecessary works being carried out.

 

[Simon47]

I never said it was easy but can be easily simplified by upgrading as much as possible which I’m a firm believer of ...

I'll preface this by saying that I could be wrong - I'm prone to missing nuances in communications.

But what your post says to me is that you are one of the charlatans who have decided not to make the effort to learn the regs or to think, you just go in and do the "<sucks through teeth>You need a new CU mate, that'll be £X". You don't design an installation, you apply the rules of thumb from the on-site guide and assume it'll all be OK; you don't think about any deviation from current regs and assess whether it's actually a safety issue, you just tell the customer they need to be upgraded.
As I said, I could be wrong - but your post comes across as indicating that you are the sort of person that shouldn't be doing EICRs, or advising anyone else how they should be done.

No offence intended - it's just how I read you post.

 

[EricMark]

I must admit I see a problem in using old editions of wiring regulations, one is you don't have them to check on, and two you often don't know the age of the installation. We should get the last EICR before we start, and that should tell us if any new work has been done since last inspected, and show once we do our own inspection and test if anything has degraded.

I can see the point in the absence of the previous EICR may be we should assume new, and that the report is being used by the LABC inspector to verify it has been installed to current standards.

However all the deviations should get a C3 unless ‘Potentially dangerous’. Urgent remedial action required. And so the question arises even if a new installation does the lack of RCD protection with a TN supply make the installation potentially dangerous? either it does or it doesn't it does not really matter when installed.

So look at another deviation from the British wiring regulations, let us say some one who is continually moving between Germany and Britain wants a house built with all German sockets, this does not comply with British wiring regulations, however the Part P document says to a relevant standard, so there is nothing stopping one from following German regulations, bit of a problem reading them as don't read German, and can't use a scheme membership to say the comply, it would need a completion certificate, however it is permitted under British law.

My point is we need to look for it being potentially dangerous rather than not complying with British regulations it would need to comply with CENELEC harmonization documents, but not British.

So if a German firm decide it wants 5 houses made available for its key workers in the UK with German sockets it can have them built, and I have been to UK houses built for USA serviceman again to USA standards, with 120 volt outlets, never tested the frequency before you ask. And this is permitted.

So clearly an EICR does not need to follow the BS 7671, and where the electrical safety council say in their best practice guide we should not issue a C2 I think one needs a very good reason to say otherwise.

 

[davesparks]

So clearly an EICR does not need to follow the BS 7671, and where the electrical safety council say in their best practice guide we should not issue a C2 I think one needs a very good reason to say otherwise.

An EICR is a part of BS7671, the standard defines what an EICR is and it is a report on an installation in accordance with BS7671.

The electrical safety council is a self titled entity which has no real power in the industry.

 

[westward10]

There seems to be two sides of the coin with people who carry our EICRs. One side you have competent people with knowledge and experience who require no Guides and may only occasionally refer to BS7671. The other side are those who overcomplicate matters by referring to Guides and doubting what is required from BS7671, this is lack of knowledge and competence derived from taking a testing qualification and thinking it opens the door to ability. We are now seeing this other side on here on a frequent basis.

 

[Ian1981]

There seems to be two sides of the coin with people who carry our EICRs. One side you have competent people with knowledge and experience who require no Guides and may only occasionally refer to BS7671. The other side are those who overcomplicate matters by referring to Guides and doubting what is required from BS7671, this is lack of knowledge and competence derived from taking a testing qualification and thinking it opens the door to ability. We are now seeing this other side on here on a frequent basis.

Nail hit on the head there!

 

[UKPN]

I would say the whole problem is the EICR was never intended to be used to show if a property can be rented out, if to fit a new socket I will need to have a new consumer unit fitted, I need to know. I need to know what needs to be done to comply with current edition, so yes it is done to current edition.

There is a problem in I don't have a copy of the 14th Edition so I could not say if the property complied with it or not. This is from 17th Edition don't have 18th to hand.


Note the word "designed" so that quote says it does comply with 17th Edition if designed before 30st June 2008 and complied with edition current at the time.

C1, C2, C3 do not say does not comply with regulations, it says how dangerous it is, there was a 4 which said complies with previous edition, but that was scrapped. So ' Danger present. Risk of injury. Immediate remedial action required.' is the same what ever edition one is using. The same with 'Potentially dangerous - urgent remedial action required.' if it is potentially dangerous then that can't change depending on which edition. 'Improvement recommended.' however will depend on the edition used.

So the big question what makes some thing which was not potentially dangerous in 1992 when BS 7671 first came out, potentially dangerous today? The answer must be the equipment used today which was no available in 1992, so what we are looking at is the switched mode power supply, in 1992 we would transform voltage then regulate there were very few items which rectified mains, so the only change that I can see is the types of RCD used to protect with a TT supply. So I can see a good reason to issue a C2 when the RCD used on a TT supply is type AC. That is about the only thing which in 1992 was safe but in 2018 is not safe.

Can anyone think of anything else which is not safe today but was safe in 1992?

C2 does not mean does not comply with BS 7671:2018 it means potentially dangerous, and over the years the electrical characteristics of properties change, be it the water pipes changed to plastic, or the switch plates changed to metal, or even the supply voltage dropped from 250 to 230.

If I as an electrician but not a member of any scheme do any electrical work I need to issue a minor works or installation certificate, and if any of that work is on the list of notifiable work I need to inform and pay the LABC fee before I start, which is little more than a tax, the law has changed slightly in now in England I need to hold a level 3 or higher qualification, in Scotland seem to remember I must have attended a course in last 5 years, but in essence since I have passed my C&G 2391 I can if I got some professional indemnity insurance start doing EICR's which are legal. I can't issue a compliance certificate or a completion certificate, but I can make a report.

It seems SSE have an insurance, which for under £70 a year covers the house holder for any repairs to the electrical installation and there is a full report made before they take on the property and a yearly check done. Read about it on another forum, and the home owner was adamant his house was OK as nothing had been reported wrong, he has a TT system with a 100 mA RCD with no type marked on it. We were trying to tell him he needed a 30 mA RCD before fitting a new 9.5 kW shower, and the Wylex fuse board although the fuses had been replaced with MCB's was also past its use by date.

So most electricians do not want to end up in court, so we play safe, at least I do, and as far as an EICR goes that means following the electrical safety councils best practice guide even if I don't agree with it, I want to if I have to stand up in court to say I followed the recommendations. And to be frank I have all RCBO protection in my house, so to say to some one else you don't need it does not some how ring true, I made a mistake and thought I was fitting type B as that is what is said on the boxes, seems fitted type AC, so I have ordered 2 type A to replace those feeding the sockets.

So if you go into a property with those silly power line units fitted on a TT supply, do you give it a C2 unless fitted with type F RCD? If not why not?

What a load of bull!