Fitting electric heater NOT storage.

[superthornt]

Hello,

So as a newly qualified domestic installer, I have been given a job that means getting rid of a domestic central heating system and replacing with electric heaters. Noe first thing Im going to do is upgrade the fuse board, here is the rad sizes by kw

Downstairs
1 x 2.5 kw
1 x 1.75 kw
1 x 1.0 kw
Upstairs
2 x 1.0 kw
3 x 0.5 kw

Basically, Im asking for anyones advice how they would go about running this in. Do i need to run 1 x 4mm radial to upstairs rads and 1 x 4mm for downstairs???

 

[Brightspark2]

Sounds like a plan.

Now you need to plan the rest of the circuit.

 

[i=p/u]

well depending on distance and vd and earthing sytem and installation methods your slightly out i. maybe

 

[Guest123]

Seems like an expensive to run method of heating a property.

Personally, I would be splitting them up over more than just 2 circuits to allow some to remain in use should the OCPD or RCD operate for any reason.

 

[Guitarist]

Radial to each heater imo opinion. That way, when they realise how expensive it is to heat it that way, it will be all in place to convert to eco 7.
Does your new install comply with "an efficient way of providing heating"?

 

[superthornt]

Problem is they got an oil boiler heating system but dont want it anymore. they wana have eco electric heaters which is beyond me. My guess is they cant afford the oil.

 

[DNS1]

If they've been fooled into those "eco" electric heaters tell them to steer well clear. Was an article in the paper the other day about a council who had installed a load of them a couple of years ago and are how having to rip them out and install central heating.

 

[drew35]

8.75kw of electric heaters, they had better get an LCD meter installed or a new bearing in the old meter. Why would they not use storage heaters?

 

[needasparks]

May be an idea as others have said to keep the old system in place for when they get the leccy bill as the oil would have been cheaper.

 

[peterb2428]

Because there crap also storage heaters that is- gas all the way

 

[superthornt]

Sound advice gentleman, appreciate the help.

 

[oldtimer]

Because there crap also storage heaters that is- gas all the way

Think you are missing the point Peter there is a suttle move on to get us off gas that why all these electric heaters are starting to pop up

 

[sythai]

If they've been fooled into those "eco" electric heaters tell them to steer well clear. Was an article in the paper the other day about a council who had installed a load of them a couple of years ago and are how having to rip them out and install central heating.

Any idea why....? Recently installed a load, work well, cheap to run and customer is happy

 

[needasparks]

I think it was to do with stated running power was loads more than the advertised rating, the company got fined quite a bit i think by trade descriptions

 

[sythai]

I think it was to do with stated running power was loads more than the advertised rating, the company got fined quite a bit i think by trade descriptions

I see thank you for that :icon14:

 

[Fin170]

Wood burner full of old pallets is cheaper to run than both

 

[chris murphy]

Hello,

So as a newly qualified domestic installer, I have been given a job that means getting rid of a domestic central heating system and replacing with electric heaters. Noe first thing Im going to do is upgrade the fuse board, here is the rad sizes by kw

Downstairs
1 x 2.5 kw
1 x 1.75 kw
1 x 1.0 kw
Upstairs
2 x 1.0 kw
3 x 0.5 kw

Basically, Im asking for anyones advice how they would go about running this in. Do i need to run 1 x 4mm radial to upstairs rads and 1 x 4mm for downstairs???

"Hello superthornt",

The Heat Output of these Heaters / Rads may NOT be a concern for You if you are just installing someone else`s requirements - But:


From a Heating Engineers point of view the Upstairs Heaters / `Rads` outputs seem VERY Low - I assume that one of the 0.5 KW Heaters / Rads is for a Bathroom ? - is another for a Hallway ? - with 2 X 1 KW and 1 X 0.5 KW Heaters / Rads for the Bedrooms - ?

Unless these are VERY small Rooms with just ONE Outside Wall I feel that these Calculations have been either done using the Heat Loss figures for a VERY Well Constructed and Insulated Home - to New Build Specifications - OR They have been Miscalculated.

Can I take it that the Home is NOT a `New Build Property` - regarding your mention of the existing Heating System being removed ?


As a Heating Engineer I know about Heat Loss and the Heat that needs to be produced to Heat a Room taking into consideration the losses - the Heat Outputs that You have quoted for the `Heaters` that are to be installed in some of the Rooms / areas seem VERY Low to Me.


There are various location factors to consider as well as the Room sizes / number of outside walls etc. when calculating Heat Losses for Heating a Home - or anywhere else - and that is why I would carry out a Site Survey to get the details when calculating for a Heating System - so I don`t really want to be calculating those for You on here - but I would be very sceptical of at least the Bedroom Heaters / Rads Outputs.


Although this may not be anything to do with You - the People living in the Home will probably be very cold when the Weather / Temperature changes.


I am not trying to be `funny` with You - far from it I have written this to try and be helpful.

Obviously in conjunction with the comments of the other Members on here.

Regards,

Chris - Heating Engineer

 

[Guitarist]

"Hello superthornt",

The Heat Output of these Heaters / Rads may NOT be a concern for You if you are just installing someone else`s requirements - But:


From a Heating Engineers point of view the Upstairs Heaters / `Rads` outputs seem VERY Low - I assume that one of the 0.5 KW Heaters / Rads is for a Bathroom ? - is another for a Hallway ? - with 2 X 1 KW and 1 X 0.5 KW Heaters / Rads for the Bedrooms - ?

Unless these are VERY small Rooms with just ONE Outside Wall I feel that these Calculations have been either done using the Heat Loss figures for a VERY Well Constructed and Insulated Home - to New Build Specifications - OR They have been Miscalculated.

Can I take it that the Home is NOT a `New Build Property` - regarding your mention of the existing Heating System being removed ?


As a Heating Engineer I know about Heat Loss and the Heat that needs to be produced to Heat a Room taking into consideration the losses - the Heat Outputs that You have quoted for the `Heaters` that are to be installed in some of the Rooms / areas seem VERY Low to Me.


There are various location factors to consider as well as the Room sizes / number of outside walls etc. when calculating Heat Losses for Heating a Home - or anywhere else - and that is why I would carry out a Site Survey to get the details when calculating for a Heating System - so I don`t really want to be calculating those for You on here - but I would be very sceptical of at least the Bedroom Heaters / Rads Outputs.


Although this may not be anything to do with You - the People living in the Home will probably be very cold when the Weather / Temperature changes.


I am not trying to be `funny` with You - far from it I have written this to try and be helpful.

Obviously in conjunction with the comments of the other Members on here.

Regards,

Chris - Heating Engineer

Maybe the house in in Spain

 

[superthornt]

A company called Bright Heating had done a survey for the rooms and came back with the sizes of rads needed to warm each room but quoted just under 8 grand to supply, fit and remove old rads, and change consumer board, Im working from their stats.
It is an old house, unknown cavity, and each bedroom has 2 outside walls. prob 3mx3m size room with high ceilings. The house detached.
7

 

[needasparks]

From what you say i would strongly recommend getting the heat values re-done for this job as Chris says the values you gave do sound well under what you would expect for a older house

 

[chris murphy]

A company called Bright Heating had done a survey for the rooms and came back with the sizes of rads needed to warm each room but quoted just under 8 grand to supply, fit and remove old rads, and change consumer board, Im working from their stats.
It is an old house, unknown cavity, and each bedroom has 2 outside walls. prob 3mx3m size room with high ceilings. The house detached.
7

"Hello again superthornt",

Just from your description above I can Guarantee You that a 3 Metre X 3 Metre Room with 2 Outside Walls and a High Ceiling will NOT be Heated correctly with a ONE KILOWATT Electric Heater / Radiator - IF it is proposed to install just one in each Bedroom.

I wonder where the other 0.5 KW Heater / Radiator is going IF what I guessed about the locations for the 3 X 0.5 KW Heaters is correct - ?


I am not trying to be offensive but I notice that You `Thanked` the Members who commented on My message to You - but You did not feel like Thanking Me for the message - I find that a little strange.

Regards,

Chris

 

[needasparks]

Its that smell of flux your clothes give off Chris....;-P

 

[kingeri]

chris murphy

As an outsider to this thread, I read your posts with interest and thanks (as reflected with my use of the thanks button!). I have recently been involved in the correction of the electrical side of an electric boiler installation (the wiring was terrible) but have to admit to not being too clever when it comes to the heat output/room size/outside wall sort of stuff. I have done such calcs in the past when installing storage heaters, but personally get very few requests for electric heating these days. The last one I did was installing a frost prevention heater in a cellar! That was hardly rocket science. But my point is that it is nice to be able to glean tidbits of info off folk who have more expertise in certain areas. I'll shut up now.

 

[chris murphy]

chris murphy

As an outsider to this thread, I read your posts with interest and thanks (as reflected with my use of the thanks button!). I have recently been involved in the correction of the electrical side of an electric boiler installation (the wiring was terrible) but have to admit to not being too clever when it comes to the heat output/room size/outside wall sort of stuff. I have done such calcs in the past when installing storage heaters, but personally get very few requests for electric heating these days. The last one I did was installing a frost prevention heater in a cellar! That was hardly rocket science. But my point is that it is nice to be able to glean tidbits of info off folk who have more expertise in certain areas. I'll shut up now.

"Hello kingeri",

Thanks for what You wrote about My previous Posts.

You may have read in some of those messages that My `motive` for being involved in the Forum is to give some `Payback` for being helped by a Member [topquark] when I asked for some information regarding a slightly unusual wiring method for a Programmable Room Thermostat.


In this instance although I wondered whether superthornt was responsible for specifying outputs for the the Electric Heaters / Radiators I wanted to mention that I felt the stated outputs looked much too Low for even small rooms.

If He is responsible for Specifying / Supplying these Heaters / Radiators - I thought that I could help to prevent the installation of inadequately sized Heaters / Radiators - and also prevent Him from having problems from the Customer for installing a `Heating System` that simply did not Heat the rooms.

I imagine that the present Calculations / Cable Sizes / installed Cables might not allow for larger Heaters / Radiators to be installed on that wiring WHEN it was found that the proposed Heaters did NOT Heat the rooms ?

That of course would be apart from the loss of the `Redundant` 1 KW and 0.5 KW Heaters / Radiators - the Costs for Larger output Heaters and I am guessing the installation of larger Cables ?


As He does not feel that any `Thanks` are in order perhaps I have just wasted My time with this.


Thanks again for your comments.

Regards,

Chris

 

[superthornt]

Heehee Umm Sorry Chris Murphy, Didnt thank just yet, was waiting to see what else would come in.

There is no orrence to be taken, At the end of the day, I have taken to this forum for advice and for people to help clear things up and, with yourself, helping me gain more knowledge. I would hate to supply all these rads and then the customer turn around to tell me I have not supplied sufficient heating for them.
What would be you way to calculate the rooms if you dont mind me asking.

Your friendly neighbourhood
Confused.com

 

[Guitarist]

Although I am not saying that this is the case in this instance, it has been known for firms to come in with smaller "super-heaters" at an exorbitant price so that "energy savings" can be used as a selling point...
It's amazing how many 1kw heaters can give off at least 3kw of heat, due to being so super-efficient.

 

[mydigitalhome]

Yes agree, there are some superb technologies offering lower wattage yet giving great results. I heat my home office 8 x 3.5m with a 550w Cosystone heater. I have also just installed same product into a 3 bedroom flat client is really happy. Effective Construction Elements Ltd, Buxton Road, Norwich, NR11. Electrical Contractors and Electricians Ask them about Trade Pricing they can do some good deals.

 

[UNG]

Although I am not saying that this is the case in this instance, it has been known for firms to come in with smaller "super-heaters" at an exorbitant price so that "energy savings" can be used as a selling point...
It's amazing how many 1kw heaters can give off at least 3kw of heat, due to being so super-efficient.

If it looks too good to be true then it is too to good to be true cause in my book you don't get owt for nowt

3kw of heat for 1kw input what next perpetual motion :biggrin5:

 

[SPARTYKUS]

If the heater is 100% efficient, then 1kW input equates to 1kW output.

 

[HandySparks]

If the heater is 100% efficient, then 1kW input equates to 1kW output.

Pretty much all electric heaters will be 100% efficient; there's nowhere else for the energy used to go. In fact a light bulb (lamp) or any other appliance will be a 100% efficient heater (neglecting any light energy that escapes through the window glass).

 

[SPARTYKUS]

Pretty much all electric heaters will be 100% efficient; there's nowhere else for the energy used to go. In fact a light bulb (lamp) or any other appliance will be a 100% efficient heater (neglecting any light energy that escapes through the window glass).

I know.... sorry wasn't trying to show off but was responding to the "its too good to be true" point. As in 1 kWatt in, nevr more than 1kWatt out!

Thats all.

 

[chris murphy]

Yes agree, there are some superb technologies offering lower wattage yet giving great results. I heat my home office 8 x 3.5m with a 550w Cosystone heater. I have also just installed same product into a 3 bedroom flat client is really happy. Effective Construction Elements Ltd, Buxton Road, Norwich, NR11. Electrical Contractors and Electricians Ask them about Trade Pricing they can do some good deals.

"Hello mydigitalhome",


I do not want to offend You but I have to comment upon what You stated here:

You are `Heating` a 8 Metre X 3.5 Metre Room with a 550 Watt Electric Heater - and this statement is also applicable to when the temperature is at perhaps Zero degrees Centigrade or below [E.G. minus 2 Centigrade for system design parameter] - ?

I am assuming that You mean that the 550 Watt Heater will `Heat` the Room in Winter Temperatures because it would not be useful to have meant that it is `sufficient` at recent temperatures - ?

Depending upon the amount of outside walls and the ceiling height this is approximately only between 10 and 15 % of the actual Heat Requirement for a room of that size.

Unless You have the most highly insulated room that I have ever heard of this is Impossible !

And IF You have got the most highly insulated room that I have ever heard of it would still not be correct to be stating that people can `Heat` Rooms of anything like the size that you quoted in circumstances where those rooms are NOT `Highly Insulated`.

I am a Heating Engineer - there is NO `Heating Technology` OR Insulation process that can achieve what You have stated - apart from perhaps the `Laboratory Conditions` that MIGHT be possible to create using the Best Insulation that has ever been manufactured [?].

Heat Losses and the Heat required in order to overcome the losses and Heat the room are calculated to suit particular Rooms and their construction / location - there is NO `normal` room of the size 8 Metres X 3.5 Metres that can be correctly Heated by 550 WATTS - even without knowing the amount of outside walls or ceiling height.

I have looked at the `Cosystone` Infra red Heaters - it may be the case that the Infra red heat waves could keep a person Warm when the rays are directed at where they are in the Room but this is NOT `Heating the Room`.

Although I did read the statement about the `People and Objects Heating the Room` [?].


With regard to having these in every room of a Home - as it is stated that the Heaters do `NOT Heat the Air` - this must mean that unoccupied rooms are Cold / not very warm in Winter.


I am making the distinction about `Heating the Room` - as opposed to having a Room where you can be warmed by the Infra red rays - but that could act as a `Heat Sink` for Heat from other Rooms / sources within the Home / Building.


You will no doubt be disagreeing with these statements - as You are a User and Installer of this product.


I don`t want to get into any `arguments` about Heating on the Forum - where Members have been VERY Helpful to Me with My previous questions.

Regards,

Chris - Heating Engineer

 

[UNG]

I have to agree with Chris's observations regarding the Cosystone heaters. The website is very confused with contradicting statements regarding how they work

Heating people by infra red heat has it's uses and applications but in a domestic situation there are other factors that need to be considered not least is damp and mould that can occur in un or underheated buildings and the risk to plumbing freezing causing burst pipework. In the quest for efficient heating is there a potential of putting customers health at risk leaving them with a damp musty home by using these products.

I find it interesting that most of these innovative heaters are designed / manufactured in hotter foreign climates or am I being too suspicious of the technology and the promises the manufacturers make for these products

 

[Guitarist]

Infra red heaters are awful and have limited uses. Agree with all UNG's points.

 

[SPARTYKUS]

One day every home will have a woodburner!

 

[Guitarist]

One day every home will have a woodburner!

If only everyone had your vision, the world would be a cleaner, happier place.