French wiring book showing Type AC 40a breaker with N and L wired opposite

[pipunch]

Hi all.

I've just had my house in France upgraded to single phase.

I've bought a consumer unit as i only want a basic set up (minimal electric is used in my house!) and am going to put it in myself.

I have a book which teaches you how to wire up.

The consumer unit comes pre-packed with one Type AC breaker + individual trips and a Type A breaker with its own trips too. I'm therefore assuming that this unit is to be wired for a split load.

The two main breakers have N and L at the top, and N and L at the bottom. Pretty much very diagram in the book shows breakers with NL-NL at the top of the breaker and shows the pair of NL furthest to the right wired N-N-N etc across the board.

However, the one picture that shows the type i have, with the N and L at the top and bottom of the breaker, shows Neutral coming into N, Live coming into L at the top, then Neutral coming out of N at the bottom but going into the top of the first trip in the L slot, and same for the L which is going into the N slot.

I hope this makes sense but something seems wrong to me, i thought all N were wired to N and all L to L. So if you had :

Breaker-20a trip-16a trip-16a trip

Then the wiring would go N + L into the N and L slots in the top of the breaker, the N + L coming out of the N and L slots on the bottom of the breaker into the top N and L slots on the first fuse etc etc.

Am i right? I'm confused because here they use a strip of copper with pins on to stick into the tops so you don't have to wire each fuse with a cable, and every set up with a breaker that has two lots of NL at the top shows the strips of copper linking all the N's together and all the L's together.

Help!

 

[markythesparky]

Read that back fast and outloud and it sounds like a Two Ronnies Sketch!

are they RCD's

 

[dmxtothemax]

QUOTE [ I've just had my house in France upgraded to single phase.] END QUOTE.
"Upgraded" implies it is better than before !
So what did you have before, half a phase ?




posting a picture of the CB will help ?

 

[pipunch]

Read that back fast and outloud and it sounds like a Two Ronnies Sketch!

are they RCD's

Haha!

Sorry i only know what they are in French i don't know the terminology in English. From googling i think they are RCD's yes. 'interrupteur différentiel' for a picture of them!

It would be very easy to explain with a picture.

Basically, i have a unit with two RCD's, and my RCD's have two lots of N and L slots in them. Most here have two lots but they are usually on the top of the breaker. On mine, there are two at the top and two at the bottom so it looks like this:

N L

N L

The top N has the neutral feed and the top L has the live.

On the ones where the breaker looks like this:

N L | N L

The same applies, but on the right hand N and L combo the N links into all the subsequent N's on the individual trips and the L with the L's.

On the only diagram in the book that shows a configuration like mine with ...

N L

N L

... it shows the bottom N linking to the L on the top of the first trip and the L linking to the N.

I hope this made sense! If not i'll try and post a pic.

 

[westward10]

Yes do a pic.

 

[pipunch]

QUOTE [ I've just had my house in France upgraded to single phase.] END QUOTE.
"Upgraded" implies it is better than before !
So what did you have before, half a phase ?




posting a picture of the CB will help ?

Honestly if you'd seen the wiring...it was atrocious.

 

[pipunch]

Ok i'm trying to do a pic..

View attachment 35202

View attachment 35203

 

[pipunch]

Ok so everything on that page has the second lot of neutral and feed poles on the RCB connected with a copper pin block thingy. Which means they are all connected N-N-N-N L-L-L-L etc because they are evenly spaced.

Except the one where the neutral and feeds come from the bottom of the breaker like they do in my box and then go into the first trip. On that picture you can see the black feed cable coming out of the bottom of the RCB and into the N socket on the first trip!

Why is this different to all the other schematics where it's shown N into N, L into L, and then N-N-N-N etc all across the board?

EDIT: For clarity, it says above those three schematics 'The different types of wiring'.

 

[pipunch]

I've got my box (on the sofa at the mo - nowhere near the power supply!) wired up like the big split load scheme at the bottom of the page. My box came like that basically, but with the two RCD's having the 4 poles split top and bottom instead of all in a row at the top. So my question basically is - do i wire up like the split load scheme at the bottom and just put the N and L wires out from the bottom of my RCD's and into the N and L on the first fuse and then stick the copper pin block thingy across N-N-N-N and L-L-L-L or do i follow the scheme on the middle-left of the page and wire the bottom N to the L and the L to the N on the first fuse?

 

[westward10]

Can you not post a pic of your box.

 

[pipunch]

Can you not post a pic of your box.

The box is wired up exactly like the schematic at the bottom only without the live and neutral feeds.

I found a video in French last night where an RCD like mine with the poles on the bottom was wired up neural-neutral and live-live which makes sense so i'm going to just do that.

 

[Pete999]

I take it as it is France all the outgoing CBs are DP?

 

[pipunch]

I take it as it is France all the outgoing CBs are DP?

Yes i was in the equivalent of B&Q yesterday and they didn't have any single pole trips.

 

[Pete999]

Yes i was in the equivalent of B&Q yesterday and they didn't have any single pole trips.

Looks to me like the two connection block L and N are just that, the thing you describe as a copper thingy with pins, is Bus bar to feed the top of the DP CBs the L and N at the bottom are for the out going circuits.

 

[westward10]

With you on that Pete I couldn't tell from pic if they were mcbs or rcbos, made no difference I suppose.

 

[pipunch]

Looks to me like the two connection block L and N are just that, the thing you describe as a copper thingy with pins, is Bus bar to feed the top of the DP CBs the L and N at the bottom are for the out going circuits.

Ok thanks - i actually found a video in French which shows the bottom L and N poles on the RCB wired up to the L and N poles on the first circuit breaker as i suspected.

Still don't get what that picture in the middle on the left is all about, with the L and N poles wired to the N and L on the first CB.
Any ideas?

 

[pipunch]

Can you not post a pic of your box.

They are 'interrupteurs différentielles' - which are breakers that only protect people and not equipment. The other type you can buy here are called 'disjoncteurs différentielles' which are the type that protect both people and equipment in case of a surge.

 

[pipunch]

Here is a clearer picture of the part i mean. See how it's showing the N on the RCB wired to the L on the first CB ? The part is headed 'Different ways of wiring.' What's that all about ?

View attachment 35208

 

[Pete999]

Ok thanks - i actually found a video in French which shows the bottom L and N poles on the RCB wired up to the L and N poles on the first circuit breaker as i suspected.

Still don't get what that picture in the middle on the left is all about, with the L and N poles wired to the N and L on the first CB.
Any ideas?

Looks like different methods of connecting the supply to the CU utilizing different styles of bus bars,
If you follow the wires the brown wire goes to the brown bus bar and the blue wire to the blue bus bar

 

[pipunch]

Looks like different methods of connecting the supply to the CU utilizing different styles of bus bars,
If you follow the wires the brown wire goes to the brown bus bar and the blue wire to the blue bus bar

But isn't the bus bar just there to link the supplies without having to wire separately ? If so the L is still connected to the N which is then connected across the board to the rest of the N's via the bar ? The neutral feed is going into the live pole and the live feed going to the neutral pole on the first circuit breaker isn't it ? Can you do that ? And why does the entire rest of the book and everything online show Neutral to Neutral and Live to Live, even with the same RCB with poles top and bottom ?

Confused !

Admittedly i'm not a spark but following a diagram is straight forward it's just this difference that's baffling me !

 

[pipunch]

This video shows the type of RCD i have with poles top and bottom but wired up N-N and L-L like normal. Does it make a difference that they're all Type A ? ie, do you wire up AC and A types differently or doesn't it matter ?

 

[kingeri]

TBH, maybe you'd be better consulting a local électricien, to be sure all is done correctly. I haven't gotten involved with this thread because I simply don't know about French wiring at all, and to try and give advice over the internet on this could lead to disaster. Better safe than sorry??

 

[pipunch]

TBH, maybe you'd be better consulting a local électricien, to be sure all is done correctly. I haven't gotten involved with this thread because I simply don't know about French wiring at all, and to try and give advice over the internet on this could lead to disaster. Better safe than sorry??

Yes i've got a guy i can ask but it will be like £40 just to ask him one question. I am following the schematic laid out in the book and on videos etc i'm just confused about that one picture showing N wired to L and L wired to N. I thought, theoretically speaking, that you couldn't do that ?

The spark will be coming out to check on the installation before i switch anything on - i'm wiring up the consumer unit first and then putting it on the wall after, and the last thing to be connected (AFTER the electrician tells me everything is correct) will be the live and neutral feeds coming from my monophase supply - so i will be safe i just want to have it all ready and prepared so my £40 gets me a definitive answer rather than a 'that'll be £40, call me again and pay me another £40 when you're ready to switch everything on' ! Just wanting to make sure i get it as right as possible before he comes.

 

[Risteard]

You need a local (French) Electrician to install this. It is abundantly clear that you lack the competence to do this safely and possibly to comply with the law.

 

[kingeri]

Yes i've got a guy i can ask but it will be like £40 just to ask him one question. I am following the schematic laid out in the book and on videos etc i'm just confused about that one picture showing N wired to L and L wired to N. I thought, theoretically speaking, that you couldn't do that ?

The spark will be coming out to check on the installation before i switch anything on - i'm wiring up the consumer unit first and then putting it on the wall after, and the last thing to be connected (AFTER the electrician tells me everything is correct) will be the live and neutral feeds coming from my monophase supply - so i will be safe i just want to have it all ready and prepared so my £40 gets me a definitive answer rather than a 'that'll be £40, call me again and pay me another £40 when you're ready to switch everything on' ! Just wanting to make sure i get it as right as possible before he comes.

Fair enough, but are you really that skint?

 

[pipunch]

You need a local (French) Electrician to install this. It is abundantly clear that you lack the competence to do this safely and possibly to comply with the law.

I don't see how it's possible to 'lack competence' when i'm following a schematic from a book and several websites from qualified installers. Here, you're allowed to install your own system - they sell ready made-up consumer units off the shelf for the DIY'er. The electrician i know (qualified and registered in both France and the UK) told me that triphase would be too dangerous for me but monophase i could do myself.

I simply want to know why all but one drawing shows Live and Neutral cables being wired into live and neutral poles, but one single solitary drawing shows it the opposite way round. It's an answer to a theoretical question i'm after - i've found a video online that shows the unit wired up as i've already wired mine - same thickness and type of cable, same kind of RCB, same equipment and accessories used...so i know it's safe. You don't need to be qualified to copy someone who is. Live from mains to L. Neutral from mains to N. L and N from RCB to L and N on circuit breaker all in same thickness of cable as the feed. Live in same thickness as feed. Not exactly hard.

I appreciate the help here but i'm no closer to an answer...i'm not going to pay £40 to ask a spark why one diagram shows a unit wired backwards. I thought the point of this place was to have questions answered by qualified people....but then said qualified people send me to other qualified people for answers ? Confused !

 

[pipunch]

Fair enough, but are you really that skint?

Yep - i have a farm house that needs a roof, a septic tank, new windows, new floors, a new log burning fire place, a new dormer window and an extension doing...every pound saved is vital to us. As i said - i won't be connecting anything up without first getting a spark to check over my work.

Still, any ideas on whether or not it's theoretically correct or do-able to wire the neutral and lives out of an RCB into the opposite poles on a circuit breaker ?

 

[mache]

I'm pretty sure that the schematic of Brown (line) to Neutral is probably just an error by the artist producing the drawings for the manual and that no body has picked up on it before. Just contact the manufacturer directly and ask for confirmation.

 

[westward10]

I can see what you are saying it looks like a pictoral error.

 

[Risteard]

I don't see how it's possible to 'lack competence' when i'm following a schematic from a book and several websites from qualified installers.

Perhaps you can't see how it is possible, but believe me it is and I stand by my comment.

 

[Lucien Nunes]

Agreed- a) we are dealing with a different set of regulations and b) whilst the OP may be a very capable chap, the fact that the answer to this question was not abundantly clear when first setting eyes on the illustration, suggests not enough experience to safely tackle a CU installation.

Re upgrading to SP+N, the supply may previously have been a small TP+N service, which was once common on the continent, where the total capacity was adequate but no one phase could carry any large loads so cookers etc all needed to be three-phase too, which made things complicated and limited diversity,

 

[sparksburnout]

Looks like different methods of connecting the supply to the CU utilizing different styles of bus bars,
If you follow the wires the brown wire goes to the brown bus bar and the blue wire to the blue bus bar

Pierre this is your big chance. Go out and sort it for him and then fill the boot up with Vin Rouge.

 

[Pete999]

I can see what you are saying it looks like a pictoral error.

I noted that as well but wasn't sure if the L lable was on the top of

Pierre this is your big chance. Go out and sort it for him and then fill the boot up with Vin Rouge.

If he pays for air fares hotels for Mr and Mrs Pierre hes on

 

[westward10]

Pierre this is your big chance. Go out and sort it for him and then fill the boot up with Vin Rouge.

Bonne idee.

 

[Pete999]

Bonne idee.

Mercy Bucket

 

[pipunch]

b) whilst the OP may be a very capable chap, the fact that the answer to this question was not abundantly clear when first setting eyes on the illustration, suggests not enough experience to safely tackle a CU installation.

So what is the answer ?

 

[pipunch]

Agreed- a) we are dealing with a different set of regulations and b) whilst the OP may be a very capable chap, the fact that the answer to this question was not abundantly clear when first setting eyes on the illustration, suggests not enough experience to safely tackle a CU installation.

Re upgrading to SP+N, the supply may previously have been a small TP+N service, which was once common on the continent, where the total capacity was adequate but no one phase could carry any large loads so cookers etc all needed to be three-phase too, which made things complicated and limited diversity,

Hi yes the farmhouse was supplied by triphase which it needed for milking machines and well pumps and stuff. Had EDF to change the supply over to monophase which is all i need for a small domestic installation (we have 6 large rooms/bathroom including a 37sq m kitchen but we're only having 12 double sockets, 12 lights, a water heater and electric oven/extractor fan. We may in the future put some electric rads in to complement the wood burners but we'll see how we go.

I know it's a different set of regs and appreciate all the help and insight on here but regs aside, i was just after the electrical theory of wiring L+N to N+L.

Seems from the two guys above though that it may be an illustration fault as it's the only picture i've ever seen in a book that looks like this and if it is an illustration fault (and nobody is pulling my leg) then the publishers should probably be notified of it because it's aimed at DIY'ers, written by qualified French professionals and someone who didn't notice the discrepancy could do it wrong. Again, i don't know if this would be dangerous because everybody seems apprehensive to actually say what they think about it for some reason, but it would be good to point it out to the authors at least !

 

[Victor]

Yes i was in the equivalent of B&Q yesterday and they didn't have any single pole trips.

You will not get single pole trips in france, their regs are for duel pole. I lived and worked in France for 12 years so know my way around their regs. If you PM me i will help you out where i can.

Victor

 

[pipunch]

Et voilà. On, working, certified as safe.

How's that for not being able to follow a schematic drawn up by an electrician ?

Hope you wash-ups can find the money to do the next nonsense pointless upgrade to the regs.

Get some.

View attachment 35221

 

[pipunch]

You will not get single pole trips in france, their regs are for duel pole. I lived and worked in France for 12 years so know my way around their regs. If you PM me i will help you out where i can.

Victor

Thanks mate but i've finished the job now. Just have to wire up my balon and then wire that up to the heures creuses switch and we're ready to rock.

 

[Pete999]

Nice wiring, what wash up did that? more to the point what wash up certified it?

 

[Risteard]

Nice wiring, what wash up did that? more to the point what wash up certified it?

Indeed. I can see numerous immediately dangerous and potentially dangerous defects with that crappy job.

 

[westward10]

Nous ne sommes pas dignes, that we are not.

 

[Pete999]

Nous ne sommes pas dignes, that we are not.

English pleas Westy I aint bi-lingual well not French anyway

Nous ne sommes pas dignes, that we are not.

 

[westward10]

Sorry Pete this is the same half wit that posted a thread the other day about earthing a rod with a bigger sized cable then throwing a load of abuse and Lee closed it. I have reported it but it still seems to be running.

 

[Darkwood]

Thread closed: ... here in the UK we have certain regulations and and standards that must be met for a board change and I cannot comment on French regulations but we wouldn't class the work your doing as DIY, given this and the nasty response you gave to a honest reply in another thread, I strongly suggest you get a competent person in, we are not a cliché little club protecting ourself we put safety first and it's clear from your questions and replies that this is not a priority and you think a few youtube vids can skip a 4 year college course ... we are not here to give you a step by step guide how to do the job we are here to help and guide only ...you are clearly not competent in our BS standards but if this is different in France then I think you should enquire on a French forum.
Take this as constructive advice, if you carry on with some of the disrespectful responses to our seasoned members then you will be subject to a ban.

 

[GMES]

Sorry to tread on your last comment @darkwood but I've just given him a weeks Ban.
There is no need for the attitude, so he either comes back with a better one or he can stay away.