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G

gorilla

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Just wanting to get some opinions about a Earth issue.

Now I'm only a student just now so not that sure about the regulations and that when it comes to electrics.

Basically a family friend was supposed to be getting a new central heating system installed on Friday by Scottish Gas, but the job couldn't be done because the house wasn't Earthed, the electrician that was there said he couldn't sort that and the electric board would need to come out to sort it.

Now I find this kind of strange as I thought that in the UK a house always has an Earth Connection and also if one had to be installed an Electrician could do it.

So since there was no Earth her new central heating system wasn't installed and won't be done for at least three weeks.

I was just wanting to know about Earthing a property (I'm not doing it Scottish Power are coming out to do it) and what is the standard thing to do if an earth isn't found.
 
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J

johnnyb

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #2
Do you mean the 10mm ,s to gas meter and incoming water, or do you mean there is no earth in the property as a whole?
If its the gas and water bonds don,t get the board to do it, it will cost the earth, beg the pun but it would, you put em in be a lot cheaper for yer freind.
 
this is strange obviouly there should be an earth in one of 3 common ways, tn-s the earth is taken off the sheath of the main incoming cable, tnc-s the earth is taken from the neutral connection of the main cut out fuses or tt where a copper stake is driven into the ground. the 1st 2 ways are easy to spot. i suspect either the main cable sheath is broken underground (have only seen this once in 20 yrs) or the stake connection has come off or is damadged tnc-s is unlkley to be damadged
 
G

gorilla

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #4
From what I have been told the whole house has no earth. Now I find this strange as I thought it would be earthed some way.
 
if you get a chance have a look at the mains coming in and see if anything looks like my previous description if the whole house has no earth the electricity board would surely fix this asap if not even quicker(same day )
 
G

gorilla

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #6
if you get a chance have a look at the mains coming in and see if anything looks like my previous description if the whole house has no earth the electricity board would surely fix this asap if not even quicker(same day )
I'm not able to have a look at it, but the electricity board isn't in a hurry they said it could be a week before they come to sort it.

I'm not dealing with it either it is her family that is but, from what has been said about it I'm beginning to think that they didn't want to do the job on Friday. It is just annoying me though as I thought most homes would be earthed in some way, not heard of any not being earthed.
 
A common problem in older properties where the earth used to be the gas and water pipes, now that most of these are now plastic some houses have been left with no earth.
The electricity board will either change to TNCS or put a clamp on the incoming cable sheath
 
G

gorilla

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #9
really if the whole house has no earth it is seriously dangerous im sure the elec board wouldnt leave it
Well from what I am told they will be out next week.

This whole thing just doesn't add up and well from what I remember the last time I was doing a few things for her I'm sure there is an Earth point somewhere around the meter. I am also sure that the gas meter is earthed as well as the water supply.

It is just looking odd and from what has been said here you all have confirmed basically what I thought, that the company brought in to do the central heating is just not wanting to do the job.
 
S

Spudnik

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #10
Have you connected your EFLI tester to find out if there is actually an earth coming from somewhere?
 
G

gorilla

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #11
Have you connected your EFLI tester to find out if there is actually an earth coming from somewhere?
Nope. As I said I haven't had chance to go down to have a look due to college work. But from the last time I was doing work for her I am very sure that there is a earth connection at the mains feed. As well as the Earths on the gas meeter and water supply.

All I know is that Scottish Power have confirmed that they will be out on Tuesday. So I'm not going to have a chance to be down and see before then so just need to wait and see what happens now.
 
S

Spudnik

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #12
Keep us posted.

Interested to hear the outcome, and if possible, some pics!
 
G

gorilla

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #13
Keep us posted.

Interested to hear the outcome, and if possible, some pics!
Won't be able to do pics, as I am not going to get there until it is sorted. I just found out about this this morning after being told that the electrician refused to do anything because there was no earth connections. Something I am finding very difficult to believe.

I will post Scottish Powers comments about it and if it was just a case of the company not wanting to start the job, it really does look like it is. Just need to wait and see now.
 
C

claire_r

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #14
yeh i would have thought there would be an earth, if its a tns the connection maybe loose, if its a tt then there may not be a conection to the earth rod. just do a zs in the house at some sockets and lights...maybe at the db try a ze if there is a 16mm earth cable.....and if you get a reading then there would be an earth, ooher.
 
G

gorilla

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #15
OK just thought I would update this.

Scottish Power came out yesterday to look at this and they advised that the house was indeed earthed adequately, including at the gas meter and water supply.

However the Earth connection that was available wasn't up to the current standards (what a surprise the house is just a wee bit old). They didn't see why there was any need for them to be there as all there equipment was in full working order and all earthed.

They did suggest that to improve the Earth connection that a copper bar would need to be inserted into the ground and then connected into the house system. They could do it but it would cost a lot more compared to getting a independent electrician to do it.

So basically the electrician that the gas board supplied, has caused a lot of bother as he didn't want to do a job that would only take a hour at the most.

I would go and do it but since I'm just a lowly Electrical Engineering Student I think I will leave it to another family friend to sort who is a qualified Electrician, (who will more than likely have me doing it while he drinks his coffee and watches to give me a wee bit experience)
 
S

sirocco

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #16
Do you mean the 10mm ,s to gas meter and incoming water, or do you mean there is no earth in the property as a whole?
If its the gas and water bonds don,t get the board to do it, it will cost the earth, beg the pun but it would, you put em in be a lot cheaper for yer freind.
Johnny,
I had to put a 10mm protective conductor to the incoming services in a 1930's house I was working in recently.

It raised an old chestnut re the water main.
Should you bond to the lead (probably the first 10meters of pipe) or the copper (the last 0.5 m where the kitchen cold tap was) ? or doesn't it matter provided that the right type of clamp is used.
Whats the view?:confused:
 
C

claire_r

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #17
can they not just upgrade the system to a tncs? just out of interest does anyone know how much this costs, if any price, to the consumer?
 
G

gorilla

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #19
can they not just upgrade the system to a tncs? just out of interest does anyone know how much this costs, if any price, to the consumer?
Scottish Power don't do it free. They can charge anything from a couple of hundred up wards. I did supply a list of questions for our friend to ask since I couldn't be there and the Scottish Power electrician was good and wrote down the answers for me, and all the questions were answered the way I thought they would apart from the cost one as I thought it was a free service as well.
 
J

johnnyb

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #20
sirocco, you bond to within 600mm on the consumers side of the cold water stop tap, or where its practicably possible after that, and that goes for lead or copper.
 
G

gorilla

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #21
Well after getting a electrician into look at this. The problem has been resolved. Copper Bar inserted into the ground and connected into the consumer unit.

Gas main and Water Supply earthing systems replaced. All electrics checked and working well no problems.

Scottish Gas contractor comes on Tuesday to do the central heating install, will it be OK this time? If it isn't I give up, there is nothing more that can be done to earth the property apart from demolish it.
 
S

spark1

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #22
Well gorilla, im glad to hear the earthing problem is now sorted out!, just a point to consider tough,.....If the Earth rod and Equipotential protective bonding to gas and water have all been renewed. it seems to suggest that some upgrading/remedial work was indeed required ...otherwise why was it carried out ? maybe .just maybe the Scottish Power spark did have a valid point after all....he sounds to me like a competant fella ..remember the rules ..NO Additions or Alterations unless Earthing and Bonding have been verified.



regards...........spark1
 

EddieB

-
Arms
Same happened to me the other week. I was there to do a couple of lights in the kitchen and replace new for old sockets.I put the loop teser on just to be sure and it gave a reading of something like 55 ohms.I know these properties are TNS as i've had a similar problem in the same street and I looked at the service head, sure enough no phsysical earth. The last time I found this I put a tenby on the lead sheath of the incomer and put a 16mm to a Earth block and then up to the Consumer unit (incidently this was a wylex skeleton unit a right pig to get a 16mm earth into) as a temporary fix. I called the distributor EDF and then the fun started, absolutely nobody wanted to know about it, EDF said it's not us it must be the supplier,although the bills were headed with the EDF Logo. So as of now we have a tenby clamp (frowned upon by the NIEC and probably everybody else) as the only phsical earth to the property. But hey what do you do if nobody will admit responsibility to owning the problem. God bless Mr Tenby!!
 
G

gorilla

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #24
Well gorilla, im glad to hear the earthing problem is now sorted out!, just a point to consider tough,.....If the Earth rod and Equipotential protective bonding to gas and water have all been renewed. it seems to suggest that some upgrading/remedial work was indeed required ...otherwise why was it carried out ? maybe .just maybe the Scottish Power spark did have a valid point after all....he sounds to me like a competant fella ..remember the rules ..NO Additions or Alterations unless Earthing and Bonding have been verified.

regards...........spark1
(Scottish Gas, not Scottish Power. Just to clear that up.)

There weren't any problems found when our Electrician was there doing the work. He tested everything first without any modifications and everything was fine. As we expected, but since there was this issue with Scottish Gas contracted electrician saying it wasn't good. We decided that it was best to replace the earth point for the house as well as the Water Supply and Gas Supply earths, even though it didn't require it.

The Scottish Power guy who came out when we reported it to them about the property wasn't earthed came out and had a look and couldn't see anything wrong either even when he tested it everything was normal. The only thing that was a problem was the fact that the Earth Wire was of the old colour of just green but even at that it was still fine.

The only thing that annoys me now about this is that the Scottish Gas contracted Electrician could have easily installed the Copper earthing rod and the bonding of the gas and water supply's, but he didn't he just passed the buck and had our friend left worried about it.

Anyway we will know if it meets his approval on Tuesday. It should as it has all been checked and certified as good by our Electrician, who is just a bit confused by the situation as well as he just didn't find any problems in the first place.
 
S

spark1

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #25
Sorry but did i misinterpret one of your earlier posts were you stated the Scottish power Sparks told you that an earth bar should be installed To Improve The situation.
If that was the case then to improve the situation must mean that the existing condition would benefit from the earth bar installation..therefore safety improved !
Just one other point if the colour of the earthing was green on the Bonding to the Gas and Water then this would indicate that it was installed to an earlier standard [maybe 6mm] and an upgrade to 10mm would probably have been required.........on the other hand if the earth you refer to was the Main Earth, then 6mm would suffice on a TT system


Just a few thoughts following your latest post.




Regards.................spark1 :confused:
 
G

gorilla

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #26
Sorry but did i misinterpret one of your earlier posts were you stated the Scottish power Sparks told you that an earth bar should be installed To Improve The situation.
If that was the case then to improve the situation must mean that the existing condition would benefit from the earth bar installation..therefore safety improved !
Just one other point if the colour of the earthing was green on the Bonding to the Gas and Water then this would indicate that it was installed to an earlier standard [maybe 6mm] and an upgrade to 10mm would probably have been required.........on the other hand if the earth you refer to was the Main Earth, then 6mm would suffice on a TT system


Just a few thoughts following your latest post.




Regards.................spark1 :confused:
It was the main earth that was green insulation and 6mm. The other two were green/yellow 6mm. But as I said the bits that was there were all sufficient for the requirements and are now replaced. Glad it is sorted though and the advice I have had here has been great, just hope that on Tuesday everything is OK.
 

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