Isolate Light to find Live Plug

[gazell72]

I

Went to isolate light & found this.
This has been rectified.
What further action would you take?

 

[Pete999]

I

Went to isolate light & found this.
This has been rectified.
What further action would you take?

View attachment 34436

View attachment 34437

What conductors are you testing across ??

 

[Pete999]

I

Went to isolate light & found this.
This has been rectified.
What further action would you take?

View attachment 34436

View attachment 34437

Ah see what you are getting at, could that be an emergency fitting

 

[westward10]

As Pete said is it an em light, seen lots of modular fittings with em packs which have been given dual supplies.

 

[Barry White]

Thats a clix type connector (basically a means of isolation of the light by separation of the supply) can you elaborate as to how it was live ?

 

[Barry White]

dunno what happeded here please delete or ignore

 

[Barry White]

As Pete said is it an em light, seen lots of modular fittings with em packs which have been given dual supplies.

The emergency ones are usually coloured red and basicaly are a plug and socket used to isolate the supply. thats the male end it should never be live once unplugged. It is like putting a standard 13A plug on to a live cable so if anyone touches the pins they recieve a shock.
basically its a ceiling rose that you can unplug the light from.

 

[westward10]

The emergency ones are usually coloured red and basicaly are a plug and socket used to isolate the supply. thats the male end it should never be live once unplugged. It is like putting a standard 13A plug on to a live cable so if anyone touches the pins they recieve a shock.
basically its a ceiling rose that you can unplug the light from.

They normally are red but I have seen modular fittings connected across two circuits, one for the charge supply the other for the normal supply.

 

[Barry White]

They normally are red but I have seen modular fittings connected across two circuits, one for the charge supply the other for the normal supply.

I have seen allsorts connected up incorrectly and thats what you have seen then that is if they go to one lamp

 

[Flanders]

Best turn that circuit off , Someones probable daisy chained the lights and put a click rose at each end of the circuit , or as other have said there could be a permanent live coming from an emergency light supply budged into the light fitting

 

[Barry White]

klik rose - Google Search - https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=klik+rose&rlz=1C1CHFX_enGB577GB577&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiTgIrA_q_QAhVoDsAKHcsqDeAQ_AUICCgB&biw=1366&bih=662

 

[Pete999]

So in answer to your pole:
No it's not safe to work on, and 2 how do we know anyone should be held to account?

 

[The Ghost]

Unplug it at the other end.

 

[gazell72]

It's been signed off by an Niceic member, so must comply to standards, so should be safe to work on.
This could be their normal standard of work & the same may exist in another building.
Somebody must be accountable.
Plugs & sockets, are listed as methods of safe Isolation.
I go to isolate & find live ends that can be touched, which could easily of come into contact with the ceiling grid.
I could if been thrown off my ladder, injured & electrocuted.
Very close to a Reportable Incident under Riddor, ie legally obliged to report to the HSE!

 

[Octopus]

I don't understand the thread.....

 

[westward10]

Bit like metal CUs, lighting circuits seem to blow people's minds. Had a similar incident a few years back now when doing PAT, the manager of the shop had linked two banks of sockets together at the counter using a flex with a plug at both ends. Yep I got a belt and the manager nearly did, you were lucky.

 

[LeeH]

I think you're gettting little over excited.

 

[Pete999]

If you have 239Volts lingering around it can't be safe to work on, isolate all supplies, if it is an EM fitting and has been wired as some suggest, then it could be thats how it was wired in the first place, if what you say is true and it has been passed by NICEIC, then look no further.Remember dangerous occurrences have to be specified under RIDDOR

 

[Flanders]

Bit like metal CUs, lighting circuits seem to blow people's minds. Had a similar incident a few years back now when doing PAT, the manager of the shop had linked two banks of sockets together at the counter using a flex with a plug at both ends. Yep I got a belt and the manager nearly did, you were lucky.

I had the same thing when we had to PA test a load of stuff at the German Market in Birmingham they had put a European plug on both end of a flex to power some 4 way power blocks , I smashed half the display trying to let go of it !!!

 

[Andy78]

I certainly would not be happy if that had come into my personal sphere of work. I'd be wanting to kick some arse in one direction or another.

 

[westward10]

I certainly would not be happy if that had come into my personal sphere of work. I'd be wanting to kick some arse in one direction or another.

Put as many measures in as you like but there is no accounting for other people's actions.

 

[Pete999]

If you have 239Volts lingering around it can't be safe to work on, isolate all supplies, if it is an EM fitting and has been wired as some suggest, then it could be thats how it was wired in the first place, if what you say is true and it has been passed by NICEIC, then look no further.Remember dangerous occurrences have to be specified under RIDDOR

As an edit point which I missed on the above post, the OP says he thinks it should be reported to the HSE, he has to be praised for finding this anomaly, but again the HSE are hardly going to act as in this case there were no injuries, however if the OP was injured (God forbid) the first thing the HSE would ask is was safe isolation of all supplies carried out? if the answer was a no then it would be th OP's fault for not checking. They don't take mistakes in safety practices, take it from me,I know what its like to be on the wrong end of one of their investigations.

 

[Andy78]

Put as many measures in as you like but there is no accounting for other people's actions.

I don't understand what you mean by that. The measures put in place should have been installing to BS7671. This has clearly not been done and the installation left in a dangerous state with regard to maintenance.
Or are you saying ....... you can write as many rules in the regs as you like, but there's always some numpty working under a NICEIC banner waiting to put peoples lives at risk ?

 

[westward10]

It is a tricky one because you wouldn't expect the plug to be live, never assume anything I suppose.

 

[westward10]

I don't understand what you mean by that. The measures put in place should have been installing to BS7671. This has clearly not been done and the installation left in a dangerous state with regard to maintenance.
Or are you saying ....... you can write as many rules in the regs as you like, but there's always some numpty working under a NICEIC banner waiting to put peoples lives at risk ?

The latter, the numpty who decided to power up a second bank of sockets using a flex with a plug on either end who wasn't a spark at all, the manager of the shop saving some money, you know "oh I can do that".

 

[Wilko]

My 20p worth : This is sooo bad I would report it as it's a near miss, at least. And there could be more waiting... What happens to the report is another thing.

 

[hasel5]

How did you rectify the problem?
Where was the back feed from ?

 

[gazell72]

Put as many measures in as you like but there is no accounting for other people's actions.

That's why it should be done by a "skilled" person, not someone with little knowledge, skills or experience.

 

[gazell72]

I don't understand what you mean by that. The measures put in place should have been installing to BS7671. This has clearly not been done and the installation left in a dangerous state with regard to maintenance.
Or are you saying ....... you can write as many rules in the regs as you like, but there's always some numpty working under a NICEIC banner waiting to put peoples lives at risk ?

Both Andy.

 

[gazell72]

My 20p worth : This is sooo bad I would report it as it's a near miss, at least. And there could be more waiting... What happens to the report is another thing.

I agree

 

[sparksburnout]

I don't really get this post. It is quite long winded now and I admit I have not studied it in anything other than a quick read through, however are we not forgetting some basic principals here? Lighting circuits, are responsible for killing more "electricians" than any other, apparently. Not sure where I read that but I can well believe it. I have witnessed in my time some unbelievably stupid setups done by previous "sparks" and DIY folks alike. Personally, if someone put a down-lighter in front of me now on my sofa I would look at it and think "i'll test that before I grab hold of it". I realise some plonka has probably done something really stupid that is worth reporting, but at the end of the day don't grab hold if it until you know its safe. I am always VERY wary of anything to do with lighting or lighting circuits, just a tip.

 

[Barry White]

I would liken this to pulling out a 13A plug from an outlet then touching the pins to find them live.
The klix sockets are great for isolating lights for servicing or tube changing. This fault would havew caught me out!!!!!!!!

 

[westward10]

I think few people, if any pull a plug and think "ooh I wonder if the pins are live".

 

[Barry White]

I

Went to isolate light & found this.
This has been rectified.
What further action would you take?

View attachment 34436

View attachment 34437

To the OP what actually made you test this? were the lights still lit?

Cheers Mykey

 

[gazell72]

To the OP what actually made you test this? were the lights still lit?

Cheers Mykey

When I'd pulled the plug to isolate, the light was still on. (It can be seen in the photo)
The feed came into a jb, to a pir, to jb, back to the light, then flex to light plug.
The plug was live & used to back feed the socket, to feed the other lights!

 

[snowhead]

Lighting circuits, are responsible for killing more "electricians" than any other, apparently. Not sure where I read that but I can well believe it.

If that is the case, it will be the Fall to the ground that caused the death.
And probably caused by completing a broken neutral path as well.

It's not far to fall if you're working on a socket or control panel.

 

[Barry White]

When I'd pulled the plug to isolate, the light was still on. (It can be seen in the photo)
The feed came into a jb, to a pir, to jb, back to the light, then flex to light plug.
The plug was live & used to back feed the socket, to feed the other lights!

Good job the tubes had not gone then. I have been working on lights for the last few days all on clix and obviously up at height each light is on its own clix but I have seen them daisy chained in the past.

 

[hasel5]

Makes sense now

 

[dmxtothemax]

Is it for real voltage ?
Or a phantom or induced voltage ?
High input impedance testers can give eronious readings.
I would test it with a low impedance volt meter (analogue)
To be sure it really is live ?