Lamps blowing!!

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HappyHippyDad

HappyHippyDad

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Afternoon..

I have been to visit a regular client who has said that some lamps that I fitted having been blowing regularly.

I fitted 11 halogen (ES fittings) outside lamps along a long driveway. SWA along the route sperated with adaptable boxes, from which seperate cable leads up to light.

Approx one blows every 3 weeks and this has been on going for around 9 months.

I am unsure of the quality of the lamp but the client states he has tried various ones with no success.

Voltage is 242V. All connections are well made.

The only 2 things that I can think of are :

1. The set up is the 11 lights come on with a timer OR by one of 2 seperate PIR's (one at top of drive and one at bottom). I cant see how this would be a problem but wanted to give the full picture.

2. I do not like the adaptable boxes, I was using a new type for the first time, they had reasonable reviews but 2 had water inside of them which did not happen with the previous boxes that I am now using again. Poor IR results for L/N-E 0.08MΩ. I have cleared the poor IR results which were due to the water ingress in one of the boxes but wondered if this could be why the lamps are blowing?

Or any other thoughts that I am overlooking?

Cheers all..
 
Last edited:
Ok,
One keeps blowing every two weeks, how long does an indivdual lamp last take actual notes.

1. What type of fitting and actual lamp.
2. Does the fitting keep the wind and rain off the lamp
3. What make of lamp is being fitted, try decent lamps from the likes of Philips or GE and relamp the whole lot at the same time.
4. When fitting the lamps are you using something to keep your fingers off the envelope of the lamp, use clean just off the roll paper towel between you and the glass.
5. PIR duty can be nasty lots of swtiching on and off, if customer wants to stick with halogen see if you arange a soft start circuit.
6. Try to see if the customer would like to go to LED.
 
I would go with low quality eco halogen lamps or water condensing on the lamp so that they get unevenly heated on start up, possibly a loose connection to the ES base causing sparking/flickering.
 
UKMeterman said:
Ok,
One keeps blowing every two weeks, how long does an indivdual lamp last take actual notes.

1. What type of fitting and actual lamp.
2. Does the fitting keep the wind and rain off the lamp
3. What make of lamp is being fitted, try decent lamps from the likes of Philips or GE and relamp the whole lot at the same time.
4. When fitting the lamps are you using something to keep your fingers off the envelope of the lamp, use clean just off the roll paper towel between you and the glass.
5. PIR duty can be nasty lots of swtiching on and off, if customer wants to stick with halogen see if you arange a soft start circuit.
6. Try to see if the customer would like to go to LED.
Click to expand...

1. ES, phillips lamps have been used.
2. Wind and rain is kept of the lamp. Lamps blowing randomly.
3. see 1
4. No. Could you explain a little more please? Is this a likely cause or just a thought?
5. Good idea.
6. They would but they wont.

Thanks for the strutured and useful response :smile5:
 
Ok,
Item 4, if this was a linear halogen or even a capsule bulb body oils on the quartz capsule will damage it. This should not be an issue if the quartz envelope is also enclosed in a second glass envelope.

Have a good look at the fittings and see that a good contact is being made between bulb and holder.
 
Richard Burns said:
I would go with low quality eco halogen lamps or water condensing on the lamp so that they get unevenly heated on start up, possibly a loose connection to the ES base causing sparking/flickering.
Click to expand...

Thanks Richard,
-The customer did state they had tried 'Phillips' halogen lamps, but I will double check.
-If it is water condensing on the lamp causing the issue, is this because water is condensing on the lamp or the fact it is condensing on a 'poor quality lamp' (I think you'll understand that rather garbled sentence).
-If it was a loose connection then I would expect it to be the same lamp blowing. Plus the connections are good.

Could it not be down to the low (fluctuating) IR results? IR results must have dropped lower at some point as the RCD has tripped once or twice recently, hence calling me in. If there was almost a short between L and E this could have caused too much current to flow through lamp??
 
Maybe a clue ; I went to my local wholesaler today to buy some gu10s. I always buy Sylvania or Osram. " sorry " he says " stopped selling them , everyone is buying LEDs. There are some there in that box (on the counter) 79p each "

Now the customer has insisted on GU10s, and since the fittings are in and waiting for the lamps tomorrow , I had to buy them- Long story about delay with plumber and tiler.

So in ten days time I may be saying ; I have lamps blowing............
 
MDJ said:
Cheap fittings with poor quality lamp holders may be one reason.
Click to expand...

Nice simple thought there Mike! I reckon you could be right. That would explain the fact that they blow randomly. Customer supplied the fittings unfortunately otherwise I could have researched a bit before fitting.
 
In my experience it's almost always the lamps,even good quality lamps are unpredictable. Think how much handling and abuse they get from manufacture to finally ending up in a fitting.A low IR will not affect the lamp. If contacts,voltage,switching and weather proofing are OK then it'll be the lamps.
 
wirepuller said:
In my experience it's almost always the lamps,even good quality lamps are unpredictable. Think how much handling and abuse they get from manufacture to finally ending up in a fitting.A low IR will not affect the lamp. If contacts,voltage,switching and weather proofing are OK then it'll be the lamps.
Click to expand...

I'll go with that WP. Common sense.....and a bad batch of lamps doesn't have to be every lamp. May be one in twenty, ten, two....who knows, still a bad batch, even with the best.
 
Murdoch said:
Why did you not use decent ip rated boxes like wiska?
Click to expand...

I always do Murdoch, this time I got taken in by a cheaper box from screwfix (still not the cheapest though!) with reasonable reviews (I had used it once or twice before and it seemed fine, however with 11 of them it became evident it was poor quality). I have since reviewed the box and also mentioned about it on this forum in a thread I started as I was so disappointed with it.

Still silly though!
 
Last edited:
Did a job with a mate of mine a couple of years ago where the customer supplied all materials. Downlights were C E D GU10s. Utter crap, the worst DLs I ever saw. Must have been about a quid a pop.
Anyway, he has tried the same complaint. Somehow it's our fault that he buys crap gear??????
A similar installation done at roughly the same time with JCC with pretty much the same methods hasn't had a single problem
 
UKMeterman said:
When you say the connectiopns are good are the contacts in the lampholder nice and shiny?
Click to expand...

I got very caught up in the fault finding and geting the IR reading above the required standard that I have not looked at that. I will though.
 
happyhippydad said:
Thanks Richard,
-The customer did state they had tried 'Phillips' halogen lamps, but I will double check.
-If it is water condensing on the lamp causing the issue, is this because water is condensing on the lamp or the fact it is condensing on a 'poor quality lamp' (I think you'll understand that rather garbled sentence).
-If it was a loose connection then I would expect it to be the same lamp blowing. Plus the connections are good.

Could it not be down to the low (fluctuating) IR results? IR results must have dropped lower at some point as the RCD has tripped once or twice recently, hence calling me in. If there was almost a short between L and E this could have caused too much current to flow through lamp??
Click to expand...
Have another rethink on that!
 
stantheman said:
Have another rethink on that!
Click to expand...

I know.. makes no sense.. all the current would be flowing to earth, not through the lamp! just wanted to try and come up with some ideas!!

Poor quality lamps or lamp holders are looking like the contenders.

Thanks everyone for the ideas.
 
Are the lamps wall mounted or are they on pillars/posts? Just thinking that it's been rather windy these past few months! Don't rule out a combination of faults either such as contamination on the quartz glass, vibration, poor electrical contact (intermittent), poor quality lamps etc,etc,etc.
 
What else is fed from the same circuit as the lighting? Double check connections and things like a wire or busbar on the wrong side of the clamp termination at the MCB/RCD etc. As already stated check the actual lamp holder where the lamp makes contact for any signs of arcing etc. If the DB is 3-phase try swapping the light circuit to a different phase.

I wouldn't overthink this from a technical point of view, 99% of lamp premature failures are because of something fairly obvious like poor power quality (overvoltage surges and spikes), environmental factors like moisture or vibration and poor terminations or connections etc.
 
This was our distro the other night just before shutdown
ImageUploadedByTapatalk1428794253.220900.jpg
 
As someone said are the fittings wall mounted or are they posts along the drive. I find eco halogens do not like any kind of vibration. Also you said it was 9 months at least since they were fitted. If the lamps get a lot of switching then they may be coming to the end of their lifespans.

I had a client that had fancy ceiling lights in three rooms. Each fitting had 12 G4s in them. So 36 in total. If each lamp is rated to last a 1000 hrs then when they start to fail it can seem like an endless cycle of changing lamps as knacked ones need replacing. That's partly why some offices etc have all lamps replaced on a relamp regardless of whether they still work.

If all seems OK with the install I would be tempted to put a couple of LEDs in and see if they last better. If they do you can point this out to the client. The UK voltage and European market prob don't help matters either!
 
happyhippydad said:
I always do Murdoch, this time I got taken in by a cheaper box from screwfix (still not the cheapest though!) with reasonable reviews (I had used it once or twice before and it seemed fine, however with 11 of them it became evident it was poor quality). I have since reviewed the box and also mentioned about it on this forum in a thread I started as I was so disappointed with it.

Still silly though!
Click to expand...

Link to the boxes please HHD so we know to avoid them!
 
HHD, admit you don't know what you're doing.

One of the things I had to study at engineering college was “test methods and reliability.” We used lamps as a case study, all the major suppliers provided samples for endurance and switching tests. The manufacturers can almost guarantee when the lamp will blow when in constant use, IE endurance test. Switched on a regular basis, the time reduced by more than 50%.

Look at the switching.

Sylvania came out as one of the most reliable in endurance.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Someone else and Tony have mentioned switching, two worst things you can do to an electrical piece of equipment, switch it on, switch it off.

If they're on off on off all day and night they won't last long....
 
TheGayOwl said:
As someone said are the fittings wall mounted or are they posts along the drive. I find eco halogens do not like any kind of vibration. Also you said it was 9 months at least since they were fitted. If the lamps get a lot of switching then they may be coming to the end of their lifespans.

I had a client that had fancy ceiling lights in three rooms. Each fitting had 12 G4s in them. So 36 in total. If each lamp is rated to last a 1000 hrs then when they start to fail it can seem like an endless cycle of changing lamps as knacked ones need replacing. That's partly why some offices etc have all lamps replaced on a relamp regardless of whether they still work.

If all seems OK with the install I would be tempted to put a couple of LEDs in and see if they last better. If they do you can point this out to the client. The UK voltage and European market prob don't help matters either!
Click to expand...

I think that is a very good suggestion.. thanks!
 
Tony said:
That sums it up!
You don’t know what you’re doing.

One of the things I had to study at engineering college was “test methods and reliability.” We used lamps as a case study, all the major suppliers provided samples for endurance and switching tests. The manufacturers can almost guarantee when the lamp will blow when in constant use, IE endurance test. Switched on a regular basis, the time reduced by more than 50%.

Look at the switching.

Sylvania came out as one of the most reliable in endurance.
Click to expand...




My favorite choice, even the GU10 last for ages.
 
SPARTYKUS said:
Someone else and Tony have mentioned switching, two worst things you can do to an electrical piece of equipment, switch it on, switch it off.

If they're on off on off all day and night they won't last long....
Click to expand...

Yeah...who came up with them bleedin' pir thingies...vital for the lamp producers as much as the users :icon12:
 
used some of these from dcrewfix. no problems and nice hefty terminals. ideal for 10mm. or 16mm.
http://www.NoLinkingToThis/p/adaptable-box-ip65-110-x-110-x-67mm/17962
 
Last edited:
telectrix said:
used some of these from dcrewfix. no problems and nice hefty terminals. ideal for 10mm. or 16mm.
Adaptable Box IP65 110 x 110 x 67mm | Junction Boxes | NoLinkingToThis
Click to expand...


Yes. They are de dogs danglies. Only use them, well, apart from whisks ones, and ... Others but they are great. You get what you pay for.
 
Simply fit LED lamps and seem what happens, buying from the likes of screwfix is your first problem. Halogens create such heat which can oftener turn cause condensation. 'Cheap lamps' often don't refer to the purchase price, but the quality.
With a IR of 0.08 after only 9months, I'd be seriously worried about you installation methods and work practices,
 
vxwestie said:
Simply fit LED lamps and seem what happens, buying from the likes of screwfix is your first problem. Halogens create such heat which can oftener turn cause condensation. 'Cheap lamps' often don't refer to the purchase price, but the quality.
With a IR of 0.08 after only 9months, I'd be seriously worried about you installation methods and work practices,
Click to expand...

I did mention trying LEDs Westie. And to need fair to HHD he did put the low IR down to crappy IP boxes. Can't really blame the installer for poor manufacturing processes.
 
TheGayOwl said:
I did mention trying LEDs Westie. And to need fair to HHD he did put the low IR down to crappy IP boxes. Can't really blame the installer for poor manufacturing processes.
Click to expand...

Fit junk and expect to get burnt.
I can buy a LAP consumer unit fully loaded for £35 or so. Apparently meets AMD 3. It's gonna be great!
 
123 said:
Fit junk and expect to get burnt.
I can buy a LAP consumer unit fully loaded for £35 or so. Apparently meets AMD 3. It's gonna be great!
Click to expand...

Agree that Lap is crap. Or then again do I?? I have never used any Lap gear so cannot really comment on them. Don't plan to purchase any soon though.

123, the OP did say the IP boxes got reasonable reviews did he not? So why should he be expecting to get burnt??
 
vxwestie said:
Simply fit LED lamps and seem what happens, buying from the likes of screwfix is your first problem. Halogens create such heat which can oftener turn cause condensation. 'Cheap lamps' often don't refer to the purchase price, but the quality.
With a IR of 0.08 after only 9months, I'd be seriously worried about you installation methods and work practices,
Click to expand...

Well thought out VX, good on you.

Thought I'd try a fairly well reviewed IP box and it leaked. From that you have deduced all my installation practices are cause for serious concern (or as you have written 'you' concern). Your post seems most intelligent, with good spelling and backed up with good hard evidence.

Well done again VX, even more so with your almost 4 years on this site and having gained the thanks of 2 whole people, you truely are a helpful chap. Keep up the productive posts :smile5:
 
Last edited:
I apologise for my spelling, you, was meant to be 'my'.... I don't apologise for my opinion.
I like to think I'd have recognised I was fitting crap and not actually done so.
I'm not also the one questioning whether a low IR result would be causing lamps to blow or the one not checking landholders for damage or poor connection.
As others have said, fit Leds, correct the faults and learn not to fit ****e... With such a low IR when you tested, it may also be worth checking any RCD present for correct operation
 
SPARTYKUS said:
Someone else and Tony have mentioned switching, two worst things you can do to an electrical piece of equipment, switch it on, switch it off.

If they're on off on off all day and night they won't last long....[/QUOTE]

Thats a really good point Sparty!! They are on a sensor in the countryside with foxes etc passing by all through the night. I bet they are going on/off all the time.

Plus, they are not blowing quite so often at the moment which could partly be down to the shorter darker hours so less switching. One blowing (out of 11) every 3 weeks, is the same as the same one blowing every 33 weeks, still not great but if it is switched on/off every 10 minutes (perhaps by a moving branch) then they will not last long. I think I will ask them to have a look at the security cameras and get an idea of how often they are switching through the night.

Cheers Spartykus! :smile5:
Click to expand...
 
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