Lost out to allot of work trying to follow new ever changing Regs, Part P etc

[sham]

I have been asked on many occasions to add lights and sockets to an existing installation. When I tell the customer that I must change the MCB to an RCBO and then carry out a minor cert which all adds to the cost of the job, I know that he has called someone else who will just extent cables, connects what he has to connect and leave with money in his pocket. These Regulations and Part P has literally put me in a financial situation. Has anybody else experienced this?
Even though I should know this, could I just fit an RCD spur unit where I have to extent my cables, so my minor installation is up to regs, or am I responsible for all the circuit as I must test it anyway.

 

[Pete999]

I have been asked on many occasions to add lights and sockets to an existing installation. When I tell the customer That I have to change the mcb to an RCBO and then carry out a minor cert which all adds to the cost of the job, I know that he has called someone else who will just extent cables, connects what he has to connect and leave with money in his pocket. These Regulations and Part P has literally put me in an financial situation. Has anybody else experienced this ?
Even though I should know this, could I just fit an rcd spur unit where I have to extent my cables so my minor installation is up to regs, or am I responsible for all he circuit as I have to test it anyay.

Where can I learn to speak sham? cuz it's difficult to decipher

 

[telectrix]

as long as the circuit you are altering is safe for continued use, a RCD FCU is 1 solution. however, a RCBO for the whole circuit would be a greater improvement, cost differential between the 2 is minimal.

 

[telectrix]

Where can I learn to speak sham?

in an alien world, pete.

 

[Pete999]

in an alien world, pete.

Yes been watching to many Alien documentries, mind you none of them mention speakng sham as a prerequisite.

 

[telectrix]

i refer my learned friend to sham's avatar.

 

[Pete999]

i refer my learned friend to sham's avatar.

Ahh a Grey

 

[Dave OCD]

I find if you explain it all properly to the customer the vast majority want to go with the safe and correct way,interestingly when quoting for a CU change I'll offer both dual RCD and RCBO variants and at least 8 out of 10 choose the more expensive [and IMO best] option but those that just want a cut price job with disregard for regs and safety really aren't worth working for anyway.

 

[Gavin John Hyde]

a minor works cert shouldnt take more than ten minutes if you are just adding a light fitting or new socket. only takes longer if you run into problems or have a fault to rectify. they come in duplicate pads and you can hand write it out, and give to customer there and then if needed.
Also from my view your example of changing the mcb to a rcbo could be considered as requiring a EIC rather than minor cert as its changing the protective characteristics of the circuit.

 

[Midwest]

OP's not on about certs, just complying with latest regs when doing alterations or additions.

No one cares, but we do, don't we?

 

[Octopus]

Also from my view your example of changing the mcb to a rcbo could be considered as requiring a EIC rather than minor cert as its changing the protective characteristics of the circuit.

An EIC is ott imho ... a MWC is much more succinct

 

[Deleted member 26818]

a minor works cert shouldnt take more than ten minutes if you are just adding a light fitting or new socket. only takes longer if you run into problems or have a fault to rectify. they come in duplicate pads and you can hand write it out, and give to customer there and then if needed.
Also from my view your example of changing the mcb to a rcbo could be considered as requiring a EIC rather than minor cert as its changing the protective characteristics of the circuit.

MCB and RCBO should have the same tripping characteristics and there’s nothing in the regs saying an EIC is required.

 

[Gavin John Hyde]

MCB and RCBO should have the same tripping characteristics and there’s nothing in the regs saying an EIC is required.

I had this discussion on a niceic assessment when perusing my certs and the guy couldnt give me a clear answer one way or not. So told me to eic it... i myself thought that a 6 amp mcb and seperate 30mA rcd replaced with 6amp rcbo is no different... but you know the niceic...

 

[Pete999]

a minor works cert shouldnt take more than ten minutes if you are just adding a light fitting or new socket. only takes longer if you run into problems or have a fault to rectify. they come in duplicate pads and you can hand write it out, and give to customer there and then if needed.
Also from my view your example of changing the mcb to a rcbo could be considered as requiring a EIC rather than minor cert as its changing the protective characteristics of the circuit.

Sorry Gavin I dissagreewith your statement about changing from MCB tp RCBO requiring an EIC

 

[Midwest]

Here's a piece from Certsure's Connection magazine Summer 2015 on appropriate uses of a Minor Works;

 

[telectrix]

Here's a piece from Certsure's Connection magazine Summer 2015 on appropriate uses of a Minor Works;

that shows that a MWC is appropriate for replacement of a OCPD ( either MCB or RCBO). end of argument.

 

[Midwest]

that shows that a MWC is appropriate for replacement of a OCPD ( either MCB or RCBO). end of argument.

Yes I know, thats why I posted it.

 

[Pete999]

in an alien world, pete.

 

[Pete999]

in an alien world, pete.

 

[telectrix]

did you post it 1st class ?

 

[Gavin John Hyde]

Here's a piece from Certsure's Connection magazine Summer 2015 on appropriate uses of a Minor Works;

I swear with the niceic assessors it is down to who you get.. they all give contradictory statements. What one deems acceptable another doesnt...
Learnt something though... minor certs here we come....

 

[Midwest]

did you post it 1st class ?

Nope, it was done electronically, you silly old sausage

 

[telectrix]

Nope, it was done electronically, you silly old sausage

gave you a like for that, but less of the old..

 

[Midwest]

I swear with the niceic assessors it is down to who you get.. they all give contradictory statements. What one deems acceptable another doesnt...
Learnt something though... minor certs here we come....

Learnt to always use emails when asking for technical information. You get a more precise & considered response IMO.

 

[sham]

I know that you have to complete a EIC for Consumer board replacement because more than one circuit is involved. A minor cert for one RCBO should be fine.

 

[Octopus]

I swear with the niceic assessors it is down to who you get.. they all give contradictory statements. What one deems acceptable another doesnt...
Learnt something though... minor certs here we come....

Scheme assessors are like BCO officers or economists - they never agree on anything ...

Avoid EIC's .................. unless its a CU, rewire, or new circuit.

 

[telectrix]

simple logistics. you can get a mwc on a beermat, a eic needs 3 beermats and 2 smoke packets.

 

[Octopus]

simple logistics. you can get a mwc on a beermat, a eic needs 3 beermats and 2 smoke packets.

The EIC has grown to be an over bloated document.

I recently had to send a client an EIC and an EICR ........... he couldn't spot the differences!

 

[ipf]

The EIC has grown to be an over bloated document.

I recently had to send a client an EIC and an EICR ........... he couldn't spot the differences!

….an awful lot of pointless ticking of basic facts involved.
If something is amiss, it should be spotted and noted.
Come the 18th 3rd Am, there'll be a section for ticking the appropriate for back box fixings....screw, nail, cavity or gunged....bleedin' crazy!

 

[telectrix]

it's getting to a stage where silly rules override common sense,. soon it will be full face vizors , gloves, hard hats, and flash suits just to change a fuse.

 

[Octopus]

it's getting to a stage where silly rules override common sense,. soon it will be full face vizors , gloves, hard hats, and flash suits just to change a 3A plugtop fuse.

corrected that for you

 

[Dave OCD]

Interesting that Certsure clearly state that a seperate MWC is needed for each altered circuit yet I have some Elecsa MWCs with test result boxes for up to 3 circuits. So I'm using them to save paper and the planet. As long as the work done is clearly summarised and genuine test results are added what's the problem ?

 

[Octopus]

OP - its no wonder you are missing out on work if you are telling people that they need a lighting circuit without a CPC rewired before you will change their fuseboard....................

 

[Midwest]

Dunno, think I would say the same.

 

[Pete999]

OP - its no wonder you are missing out on work if you are telling people that they need a lighting circuit without a CPC rewired before you will change their fuseboard....................

Best practice guide does say it's advisable to suggest to the client that before Swapping a CU an EICR should be recommended prior to swapping the CU, however if the client refuses an EICR some for of testing should be carried out to ensure that no faults on the existing installation will cause unwanted tripping of the RCD.

 

[Octopus]

Best practice guide does say it's advisable to suggest to the client that before Swapping a CU an EICR should be recommended prior to swapping the CU, however if the client refuses an EICR some for of testing should be carried out to ensure that no faults on the existing installation will cause unwanted tripping of the RCD.

Yes, that’s because the NICEIC want to generate work for their members ......

 

[Midwest]

Plus if the lightings got no cpc, the wirings donkeys old & IMO the hole lot should be rewired

 

[Pete999]

Plus if the lightings got no cpc, the wirings donkeys old & IMO the hole lot should be rewired

Subject to testing of course?

 

[Midwest]

Subject to testing of course?

Nope. Its just my opinion Pete. Such wiring is going to be as nearly as old as me, & her indoors keeps telling me I need replacing.

If I bought such a house, its probably gonna need some money spent on it, why not spend some cash on the electrics?

And if I was gonna do that, I wouldn't waste £300 or whatever on an EICR.

 

[ipf]

Dunno, think I would say the same.

Did one last year where the local light, under the stairs was wired in twin and MT. No earth to the switch or batten lampholder. No problem as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Pete999]

Nope. Its just my opinion Pete. Such wiring is going to be as nearly as old as me, & her indoors keeps telling me I need replacing.

If I bought such a house, its probably gonna need some money spent on it, why not spend some cash on the electrics?

And if I was gonna do that, I wouldn't waste £300 or whatever on an EICR.

Good point

 

[Midwest]

Did one last year where the local light, under the stairs was wired in twin and MT. No earth to the switch or batten lampholder. No problem as far as I'm concerned.

Wouldn't of just been kinder to replace that little bit of cable, as a freebee?

 

[ipf]

Wouldn't of just been kinder to replace that little bit of cable, as a freebee?

Not really. It would have been very awkward, believe it or not, certainly without knocking things apart and making a real mess. It was a cu change, not a rewire. Used it as an example for annual NIC inspection...…...and he agreed entirely. I did put it on it's own circuit in the new board, though. He was more worried about there not being a local schedule on show and noted it on his final report even though the house owner showed it to him from a kitchen drawer.

 

[Midwest]

I have to say those local schedules are a waste of space IMO. I don't see what a properly labelled up CU, gains with a schedule for the home owner?

 

[Octopus]

I have to say those local schedules are a waste of space IMO. I don't see what a properly labelled up CU, gains with a schedule for the home owner?

And as for the "tick box" list of inspections ...................... they are a waste of time, money and paper IMHO

Plus I still come across "new" certificates without them.

 

[Toneyz]

Not really. It would have been very awkward, believe it or not, certainly without knocking things apart and making a real mess. It was a cu change, not a rewire. Used it as an example for annual NIC inspection...…...and he agreed entirely. I did put it on it's own circuit in the new board, though. He was more worried about there not being a local schedule on show and noted it on his final report even though the house owner showed it to him from a kitchen drawer.

I had that before (circuit charts)in the end we used stickers like the ones they sell.

 

[paleosparky13]

I have been asked on many occasions to add lights and sockets to an existing installation. When I tell the customer that I must change the MCB to an RCBO and then carry out a minor cert which all adds to the cost of the job, I know that he has called someone else who will just extent cables, connects what he has to connect and leave with money in his pocket. These Regulations and Part P has literally put me in a financial situation. Has anybody else experienced this?
Even though I should know this, could I just fit an RCD spur unit where I have to extent my cables, so my minor installation is up to regs, or am I responsible for all the circuit as I must test it anyway.

The reason you lose work is when sparks take their sparky hat's off and put their greedy business hat's on. Under quote a job and then send one their many apprentices round who's costs are a 20th of the overheads of a self employed sparkler. The apprentice gets a nibble of the experience carrot, the greedy pikey business man gets fuel in his shitty Audi q7 and filler tokens for his dog missuses lips and Mr honest spark gets fu ked off out of it, but meantime his tax gets to support the apprentice Mr greedy -------s is employing. Proper carve up.

 

[paleosparky13]

I have been asked on many occasions to add lights and sockets to an existing installation. When I tell the customer that I must change the MCB to an RCBO and then carry out a minor cert which all adds to the cost of the job, I know that he has called someone else who will just extent cables, connects what he has to connect and leave with money in his pocket. These Regulations and Part P has literally put me in a financial situation. Has anybody else experienced this?
Even though I should know this, could I just fit an RCD spur unit where I have to extent my cables, so my minor installation is up to regs, or am I responsible for all the circuit as I must test it anyway.

The reason you lose work is when sparks take their sparky hat's off and put their greedy business hat's on. Under quote a job and then send one their many apprentices round who's costs are a 20th of the overheads of a self employed sparkler. The apprentice gets a nibble of the experience carrot, the greedy pikey business man gets fuel in his shitty Audi q7 and filler tokens for his dog missuses lips and Mr honest spark gets fu ked off out of it, but meantime his tax gets to support the apprentice Mr greedy -------s is employing. Proper carve up.