Moving A Socket A Few Feet

[NickD]

Client wants (indoor, domestic) socket moved a matter of a few feet, assuming cable is not to be buried in wall, would you say for regs compliance socket must be RCD protected? I know the answer is liable to be yes because it's adding a new socket and decommissioning the old, but just wanted to pick some more experienced brains. I'm aware if the cable isn't buried I could just install a socket with integral RCD if the client is willing. Realistically they may go for the cowboy installer who'll just move the socket and not even worry about RCDs. :sad:

 

[Hawkmoon]

411.3.3 bgb (not just the burying issue)

 

[NickD]

Yeah, that's my point, I know that a new socket I install has to be RCD protected. But not if replacing an existing one (as I understand it). If I could say I'm replacing an existing one only three feet to the left then no RCD required. But I don't think I can say I'm replacing an existing one if it's three feet to the left, correct?

 

[Plonker 3]

Well no, because it's non existent at the minue. That's a bit like doing a rewire without RCDs as they had sockets and lights previously.

 

[NickD]

Well no, because it's non existent at the minute.

Yeah. Dammit. The angel on one shoulder is telling me it's a new socket and I can't not RCD protect it, the demon on the other is jumping up and down yelling for ****'s sake it's just the same socket being moved three feet to the left. But I know I'm going to listen to the angel. Dunno why I'm asking really. Plus I know I'd be totally up Poo Street if I moved it and documented it, and it wasn't RCD protected and he electrocuted himself from it. Bloody demon. Cheers guys.

 

[Hawkmoon]

I definitely would RCD protect it and also inform the customer that it is the only socket in the house that is safe for outside use (assuming no other RCD)

 

[D Skelton]

Lets be realistic here, we all know what the regs say, but who would honestly add RCD protection?

If it was a recent board yeah, I'd pop an RCBO in, but what if it was a rewireable board and there was no bonding in place (and a bit of a nightmare to put it in place too)???

My answer isn't so black and white then.

If it was some rich fella with a Merc in the driveway then I'd price to do the job properly, ie. whack bonding in and install an RCD socket or an RCD on the circuit to protect a normal one. If it was an old granny living on her 60 odd quid a week, I'd probably just move the socket without doing anything additional safe in the knowledge that my work is going to be safer than DIY Dan's who she'd inevitably get in to do the work if I priced to do the job properly.

If the rich guy however still got DIY Dan in to do the work after I quoted to do it properly, I wouldn't lose any sleep whatsoever!

 

[telectrix]

Lets be realistic here, we all know what the regs say, but who would honestly add RCD protection?

If it was a recent board yeah, I'd pop an RCBO in, but what if it was a rewireable board and there was no bonding in place (and a bit of a nightmare to put it in place too)???

My answer isn't so black and white then.

If it was some rich fella with a Merc in the driveway then I'd price to do the job properly, ie. whack bonding in and install an RCD socket or an RCD on the circuit to protect a normal one. If it was an old granny living on her 60 odd quid a week, I'd probably just move the socket without doing anything additional safe in the knowledge that my work is going to be safer than DIY Dan's who she'd inevitably get in to do the work if I priced to do the job properly.

a case of common sense prevailing here.

 

[Hawkmoon]

Lets be realistic here, we all know what the regs say, but who would honestly add RCD protection?

If it was a recent board yeah, I'd pop an RCBO in, but what if it was a rewireable board and there was no bonding in place (and a bit of a nightmare to put it in place too)???

My answer isn't so black and white then.

If it was some rich fella with a Merc in the driveway then I'd price to do the job properly, ie. whack bonding in and install an RCD socket or an RCD on the circuit to protect a normal one. If it was an old granny living on her 60 odd quid a week, I'd probably just move the socket without doing anything additional safe in the knowledge that my work is going to be safer than DIY Dan's who she'd inevitably get in to do the work if I priced to do the job properly.

Agreed, there's always those situations that warrant 'judgement' - guess I prefer to answer questions by the book because you never really know the questioner's level of competence when it comes to 'realistically applying the regs'

 

[D Skelton]

Agreed, there's always those situations that warrant 'judgement' - guess I prefer to answer questions by the book because you never really know the questioner's level of competence when it comes to 'realistically applying the regs'

I can't agree nor disagree with this statement, but what I will say is that the BGB is not statutory, and there are going to be the odd occasions where following it by the letter would be absolutely pointless. This is my get out clause.

BTW, I must make clear that I am not the sort of person that throws this at someone every time they question something in the regs, they should be followed!*












































*In 99.99% of cases

 

[Darkwood]

You are making an alteration and as such you need it to comply to the 17th, changing a socket front does not constitute making an alteration or addition thus not subject to the requirement although a verbal recommendation would be my route if not a note with the invoice as to suggest for added personal protection you recommend updating the circuit.

As for your situation yes you must fit RCD coer and price for it, if you explain it well i cannot see a customer letting a cowboy in who doesn't bother fitting an RCD... it all depends on how you address this issue with the customer, if you explain that they require it to meet regulations and it gives a degree of personal protection and then say less scrupulous types may do this a lot cheaper without bothering to fit an RCD cover which is contravening Regulation and leaves your socket wired under a older code of practice lacking the personal protection required to meet current standards.... anyone going for the cowboy option after been told that isn't worth your time.

If the wiring is not buried within 50mm then you can get away with the new outlet been a rcd socket as the regulation regarding sockets to be protected regardless of install methods is aimed at user protection when plugging items in and not the wiring, of course if it is buried within 50mm then yes the rcd needs to be up front.

 

[NickD]

Lets be realistic here, we all know what the regs say, but who would honestly add RCD protection?

If it was a recent board yeah, I'd pop an RCBO in, but what if it was a rewireable board and there was no bonding in place (and a bit of a nightmare to put it in place too)???

My answer isn't so black and white then.

If it was some rich fella with a Merc in the driveway then I'd price to do the job properly, ie. whack bonding in and install an RCD socket or an RCD on the circuit to protect a normal one. If it was an old granny living on her 60 odd quid a week, I'd probably just move the socket without doing anything additional safe in the knowledge that my work is going to be safer than DIY Dan's who she'd inevitably get in to do the work if I priced to do the job properly.

If the rich guy however still got DIY Dan in to do the work after I quoted to do it properly, I wouldn't lose any sleep whatsoever!

That's why I think the socket with integral RCD is a good compromise. Compliance, but not at a high cost.

 

[telectrix]

what you could do is replace the existing socket with a RCD FCU, then spur to new socket. that way you'd protect the new cable if chased in as well as the socket. whatever you do, still need to confirm earthing and bonding and rectify if required.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

oye Nick..

stop attention seeking with sillyness like this....just shift the chuffing thing to where you want it.....

its not an addition or new install is it for christs sake...use your initiative lad...

if you feel they may be using it for outdoor equipment then replace the front with an RCD outlet.....

bloody nora...

 

[Badged01]

The only question you need to ask yourself if something does go wrong will the HSE see moving the socket as just a commonsense measure and not prosecute? Or will they perhaps think otherwise and start looking for what guidance you should or should not have followed?

I look at the move putting in a new socket, regardless of whether you blank-off/fill-in the old location etc. and would cover my butt with an RCD etc. If the old girl can get someone else to move it for her then let her ..... either way I'll sleep happy at night :smiley2:

 

[DPG]

oye Nick..

stop attention seeking with sillyness like this....just shift the chuffing thing to where you want it.....

its not an addition or new install is it for christs sake...use your initiative lad...

if you feel they may be using it for outdoor equipment then replace the front with an RCD outlet.....

bloody nora...

How is it attention seeking? It's a question which was asked in a fair way and has already had different answers given by members on here. Daz

 

[GLENNSPARK]

How is it attention seeking? It's a question which was asked in a fair way and has already had different answers given by members on here. Daz

hi Daz...hows it goin mate..

 

[Toby Kuhnert]

As Tel has already said, change the existing point for an RCD FCU, then come off the load side. Happy days...

 

[Eddiesparks]

So easiest way would be use an RCD socket. But think about it like this. They now have 15/20 sockets with no rcd protection and one with! Haha you should tell them to plug anything in THAT socket if they plan on getting a belt at any time in the future. I'm with D skelton. Common sense/type of punter.

 

[MDJ]

So easiest way would be use an RCD socket. But think about it like this. They now have 15/20 sockets with no rcd protection and one with! Haha you should tell them to plug anything in THAT socket if they plan on getting a belt at any time in the future. I'm with D skelton. Common sense/type of punter.

No sorry I don't agree with that at all