NICEIC Certification Scheme NICEIC Blackmail

[brizospark]

The JIB are not there to answer your enquiries. As a qualified electrician you should have access to the most recent regs books and several other pieces of literature to work the answer out for yourself

 

[brizospark]

I'm going to start my own organisation and monitor milk suppliers. I will make my living from visiting all the different dairy farms in the country and make sure they are adhering to standards that have been put in place by the food standards agency and make sure these dairy farmers are complying with rules they are already aware of. My plan is to then approach the supermarkets and manipulate them into strictly buying from dairy farmers which are registered in my scheme. Of course there will be an extortionate fee for these dairy farmers to be part of my scheme and it will provide me with a good living. It doesn't matter that i will be taking a cut of their hard earned profits, they need the supermarkets so they will have no option but to join.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

i am NIC registered....but that doesn`t mean i like the current setup..

Damian has told me as well that there are plenty within the NIC that feel the same about the racketeering

 

[GLENNSPARK]

The JIB are not there to answer your enquiries. As a qualified electrician you should have access to the most recent regs books and several other pieces of literature to work the answer out for yourself

same as this forum..

Electrical Trainee and unskilled/incompetant/unqualified jobeys coming in here take note...

 

[High Tower]

The JIB are not there to answer your enquiries. As a qualified electrician you should have access to the most recent regs books and several other pieces of literature to work the answer out for yourself

Please do not patronise me, I'm qualified to my eyeballs, have all the relevant publications, quite the library in fact, enquires made were such as "where is my card", "when are the next ECS tests for the lads"

You only have to look at them as a organisation to see that they have been left behind by the movement of time

 

[brizospark]

[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]The insistence on using NIC only could be construed as a restraint of trade under law, especially if this insistence is made a precondition of contract[/FONT]

 

[Octopus]

That does really rub me up, I live very close to the HQ of NG Baileys and it racks me off that they have the same inspection with the same engineer and pay the same fee as little ole me! I have to agree with you 100%

So we have agreement where to start then.

This is how we should focus our anger.....

I suspect the majority of people unhappy about the fees are the Sole Traders like me.

 

[R G]

i am NIC registered....but that doesn`t mean i like the current setup..

Damian has told me as well that there are plenty within the NIC that feel the same about the racketeering

The NIC should have stuck to what they used to do , offer only 1 scheme approved contractor and thats it , with domestic installer status included .
the domestic installer route they have gone down has made them more sell sell , and now offer D/I courses , I think many who have been with them some time feel that its all gone down the pan,,,

 

[brizospark]

Please do not patronise me, I'm qualified to my eyeballs, have all the relevant publications, quite the library in fact, enquires made were such as "where is my card", "when are the next ECS tests for the lads"

You only have to look at them as a organisation to see that they have been left behind by the movement of time

This is completely irrelevant to the OP. NICEIC, although they would love to be, are not involved in grading cards. I am not saying that the JIB are run like a well oiled machine but what I am implying is that there is absolutely no place for organisations such as the NICEIC. They are an unnecessary middle man between electricians and the end product. I have to admit that their marketing and manipulation talents are second to none.

I have no doubt that you are well qualified and have a lot of literature. To be honest it just disappoints me that there are sparks out there like yourself who are supporting the NICEIC while there are others who rightfully make a stand against these leeches

 

[Engineer54]

Again i won't get involved in the present argument, save to say, that at this moment in time the JIB/SJIB, are the ONLY organisation where you will not find a single electrical trainee 17 Whizz Kidd on the books.
Yes the JIB have many problems, but at least they do have a sound and recognised route and recognised standards for qualified electricians and upholds those standards...

So credit where credits due!! lol!!

 

[GLENNSPARK]

The NIC should have stuck to what they used to do , offer only 1 scheme approved contractor and thats it , with domestic installer status included .
the domestic installer route they have gone down has made them more sell sell , and now offer D/I courses , I think many who have been with them some time feel that its all gone down the pan,,,

well i`m AC anyway...so i dont care about their `domestic installer` rubbish....and i`m still rackin my brains at what a `domestic installer` is supposed to be

 

[High Tower]

This is completely irrelevant to the OP. NICEIC, although they would love to be, are not involved in grading cards. I am not saying that the JIB are run like a well oiled machine but what I am implying is that there is absolutely no place for organisations such as the NICEIC. They are an unnecessary middle man between electricians and the end product. I have to admit that their marketing and manipulation talents are second to none.

I have no doubt that you are well qualified and have a lot of literature. To be honest it just disappoints me that there are sparks out there like yourself who are supporting the NICEIC while there are others who rightfully make a stand against these leeches

I don't support them but, I want to work in certain sectors, so I pay my money, jump through my hoops and put my tender in! It's not ideal but I'd rather this than sitting at home skint with my ideals intact!.


Yea the insistence does bar some good non NIC contractors from certain works but it also serves to keep the total chancers away from the better work

 

[R G]

Again i won't get involved in the present argument, save to say, that at this moment in time the JIB/SJIB, are the ONLY organisation where you will not find a single electrical trainee 17 Whizz Kidd on the books.
Yes the JIB have many problems, but at least they do have a sound and recognised route and recognised standards for qualified electricians and upholds those standards...

So credit where credits due!! lol!!

Totally agree , the JIB have not kept up with the times and needs updating , but what else is there that looks at the qualifications , we need a scheme with qualifications and licensing combined , If the JIB is brought right up to date with the likes of what the NIC used to be combined that would help all true sparks

 

[GLENNSPARK]

So we have agreement where to start then.

This is how we should focus our anger.....

I suspect the majority of people unhappy about the fees are the Sole Traders like me.

its anyone who feels their getting a tanned arse every year courtesy of them Murdoch......

or feel they are getting `left out`....just because they didn`t pay into the NIC luncheon club...so cant sit at the council work table so to speak...

 

[GLENNSPARK]

I don't support them but, I want to work in certain sectors, so I pay my money, jump through my hoops and put my tender in! It's not ideal but I'd rather this than sitting at home skint with my ideals intact!.


Yea the insistence does bar some good non NIC contractors from certain works but it also serves to keep the total chancers away from the better work

well...this is pretty much what the council guy in the markets was saying Aiden....

still denying perfectly competant folks from getting a crust though...isn`t it...

and its wrong....

 

[brizospark]

HT you are supporting them by paying your fee every year, you are contributing to a group of thieves bar lunches. OK you may bit the bullet and join because it benefits you but where are your principles and thought for the other sparks who simply cannot afford to fund this each year

 

[Plonker 3]

Following on from what has been said, does the figure banded around of next to no people being removed from CPS, does this include NICEIE approved contractors too?

 

[High Tower]

HT you are supporting them by paying your fee every year, you are contributing to a group of thieves bar lunches. OK you may bit the bullet and join because it benefits you but where are your principles and thought for the other sparks who simply cannot afford to fund this each year

It's not a case of if sparks can afford it, if your bidding for such contracts then you should be a solvent company, be it ltd or sole trader, so it's a business decision, pay your fees and carry out the work, or don't and find work in a different sector!.

I agree with most the sentiments, and I'm not keen on the cash cow!, but if it becomes open shop then suddenly Barry from the pub can get involved in some of the good works. Yes I believe that such works should be opened to other schemes, but the problem is, the others are not commercial orientated, so only assess on domestic.

 

[Plonker 3]

But surly you get the job based on ability not because you pay a third party to be allowed to bid on it?

 

[brizospark]

High tower you have been completely roped in. Sparks were trading just fine before the nic evolved

 

[Plonker 3]

If councils and other companies insist on you being NIC AC registered, why don't they pay the NIC for your assessment? If your company fails the assessment you then have to pay it out of your own pocket.

 

[UNG]

Any fees need to be levelled "per" sparky, not per organisation. That's where we should be united.

That does really rub me up, I live very close to the HQ of NG Baileys and it racks me off that they have the same inspection with the same engineer and pay the same fee as little ole me! I have to agree with you 100%

That is why there is so much resistance to an individual licence scheme by the big players

I'm going to start my own organisation and monitor milk suppliers. I will make my living from visiting all the different dairy farms in the country and make sure they are adhering to standards that have been put in place by the food standards agency and make sure these dairy farmers are complying with rules they are already aware of. My plan is to then approach the supermarkets and manipulate them into strictly buying from dairy farmers which are registered in my scheme. Of course there will be an extortionate fee for these dairy farmers to be part of my scheme and it will provide me with a good living. It doesn't matter that i will be taking a cut of their hard earned profits, they need the supermarkets so they will have no option but to join.

Dairy farmers are struggling as it is to make a profit the supermarkets just want cheap

The NIC should have stuck to what they used to do , offer only 1 scheme approved contractor and thats it , with domestic installer status included .
the domestic installer route they have gone down has made them more sell sell , and now offer D/I courses , I think many who have been with them some time feel that its all gone down the pan,,,

The defined scope thing they brought in years ago was the start of the slippery slope

It's not a case of if sparks can afford it, if your bidding for such contracts then you should be a solvent company, be it ltd or sole trader, so it's a business decision, pay your fees and carry out the work, or don't and find work in a different sector!.

I agree with most the sentiments, and I'm not keen on the cash cow!, but if it becomes open shop then suddenly Barry from the pub can get involved in some of the good works. Yes I believe that such works should be opened to other schemes, but the problem is, the others are not commercial orientated, so only assess on domestic.

I don't think the NIC are most of the assessors won't go near the big jobs as it takes too much assessment time up they would rather see a few smaller jobs of different types. When the assessor calls he can be steered to a choice of a few selected jobs so a cover up can be done by the bigger firms. Had to laugh years ago when an assessor went through the job book and wanted to go to a particular job told him he didn't have the necessary security clearance's to get on site so there was no chance on this visit but if he came back at the NIC's expense we may be able to sort it

 

[Brightspark2]

But surly you get the job based on ability not because you pay a third party to be allowed to bid on it?

How do they know you have the ability?...


Maybe there could be a third party to verify this?...

 

[Plonker 3]

How do they know you have the ability?...


Maybe there could be a third party to verify this?...

So all NIC sparks who are AC are competent?

 

[trev]

So all NIC sparks who are AC are competent?

Of course they are! They've been rigorously checked and vetted by trained experts who can verify their ability to stump up a grand

 

[Brightspark2]

So all NIC sparks who are AC are competent?

Who said that?...

I'd say a higher number of registered sparks are component compared to non registered sparks.

We all know the horror story's but how are companies, councils whoever supposed to know that you have the ability and are competent?

That is with reference to you saying

But surly you get the job based on ability not because you pay a third party to be allowed to bid on it

 

[Plonker 3]

Who said that?...



We all know the horror story's but how are companies, councils whoever supposed to know that you have the ability and are competent?

How do they know you have the ability?...


Maybe there could be a third party to verify this?...NICEIC already are a third party

Its the NIC that we are discussing and why should someopne who pays a premium be able to tender for certain jobs. A level playing field is what is needed similar to installing gas.

 

[ipf]

High tower you have been completely roped in. Sparks were trading just fine before the nic evolved

Yes they were, but , then again, we had an industrial and domestic trade with time served men, apprentices and labourers with plenty of work to go round. Twenty five years ago the NIC members were among the elite and were treated and respected as so. If something had mentioned something known as a 'domestic installer' it would have been treated as a figment of imagination.
How things change, being dragged into part P issues and turning into a cash making machine and, to some, a necessity (self included, worse luck).

 

[Welchyboy1]

So all NIC sparks who are AC are competent?

Having been registered with elecsa for two years, niceic DI for 3 years and then NiC AC for 3 years, i can say with a fair bit of experience that the NIC AC may have cost me a grand a year but it earns me probably three times that in insurance EICRs and council work alone, and its the ONLY scheme that helps you getting work

If you cant see it as an investment in your business then you've got blinkers on, sure id rather not join anyone at all but thats life. either join them or dont but thats just the way it is

Its also the hardest and most thorough assessment so far and i am always nervous come assessment time unlike the other domestic schemes. (which i personally think are a joke), can you test an RCD yep, can you do a ZS on that socket, yep, ok your in!

and they aint afraid to fail you in the slightest

Large NIC AC companies that have lots of subbies and installers working under one QS are bound to have lower standards and cowboy jobs slip under the radar, but over a broad general spectrum a small outfit/one man band that has NIC AC are generally quite good from my experience

Brizospark, unfortunatley while there are so many people like you just sitting around moaning about things like this, instead of facing up and taking the initiative of a situation that just aint gonna change, then there are gonna be people like me taking on all that work that you cant tender for and earning well from it!

 

[Plonker 3]

and its the ONLY scheme that helps you getting work

So what do the NIC do for you that helps you get work?

 

[Plonker 3]

Would also be intresting to know what exactly the companies and such like who stipulate NIC contractors what they actually know about them.

 

[Welchyboy1]

So what do the NIC do for you that helps you get work?

I would say first off they have made it seem to most councils, insurances, nhs, government and a lot of specifiers that your not competant if your not registered with them(not saying that is the case BTW)

their marketing machine is also huge compared to any of the others

 

[UNG]

I would say first off they have made it seem to most councils, insurances, nhs, government and a lot of specifiers that your not competant if your not registered with them(not saying that is the case BTW)

their marketing machine is also huge compared to any of the others

If you listen to some of the younger council building surveyors (I know a few) "we do it that way because that is the way it has always been done" no one in any of these organisations has ever thought to review and where needed update their age old practices which just rumble on like the dinosaur they have become and nobody likes to rock the boat and challenge them.

The NIC are living on their past respect IMO and those who keep blindly specifying NIC are just not up to date or are being sold a pup by Certsure

 

[ipf]

If you listen to some of the younger council building surveyors (I know a few) "we do it that way because that is the way it has always been done" no one in any of these organisations has ever thought to review and where needed update their age old practices which just rumble on like the dinosaur they have become and nobody likes to rock the boat and challenge them.

The NIC are living on their past respect IMO and those who keep blindly specifying NIC are just not up to date or are being sold a pup by Certsure

Maybe the case, but at least there used to be electrical clerk of works' who knew what they were talking about and made sure the job was carried out to correct standards and spec. Don't see much of that these days.....just new 'it works, must be OK' guys who couldn't care a tinker's ----.

 

[shanky887614]

Maybe the case, but at least there used to be electrical clerk of works' who knew what they were talking about and made sure the job was carried out to correct standards and spec. Don't see much of that these days.....just new 'it works, must be OK' guys who couldn't care a tinker's ----.

Still an electrical clerk of works in nhs hospitals ive been to

 

[ipf]

Still an electrical clerk of works in nhs hospitals ive been to

Try local councils, hospitals are a different field. It's all about annual budgets and we know which way they are going. The more they farm out the responsibility onto the contractor, the less they have to pay.

 

[Brightspark2]

Its the NIC that we are discussing and why should someopne who pays a premium be able to tender for certain jobs.

I know they are thats what I was getting at you see...

AND

Because they have paid to have there work verified by a third party (Even if there are flaws). Companies, councils etc see this as reassurance.

A level playing field is what is needed similar to installing gas.

Yes I know what your saying. I do agree.

 

[Zeno]

Rubbish! The difference between NIC and CORGI/Gas Safe is that it is a legal requirement for gas engineers to be gas safe qualified to carry out work on gas pipes etc. the NIC and all the other schemes are self governed, profiteering leeches who are in no way affiliated with the IEEE, who electricians are legally required to adhere to

The difference between the NICEIC and Gas Safe is, Gas safe costs £186 a year, the NICEIC £444. The NICEIC only requires one person per company to be assessed and Competent, Gas Safe requires individual Competence which is the only legal solution.
As everyone completing a certificate is legally responsible for it, not just the Company.

 

[imago]

I this year's assessment coming up in a couple of weeks with ELECSA, I've paid my £500:00 or whatever it was. I'll do it next year too, and any year after that when I continue to do work which requires signing off under the regs in force at the time.

I'd prefer not to pay it, but that's the way it is. Crying about it on a forum would serve no more purpose than complaining about the weather. If your business can't afford the fee, then whilst you may be an excellent electrician, you're not running the business side of things correctly. Diesel for example is a large annual cost, many times that of my scheme membership. But the thing they have in common is that they are both included in my costings.

As for JIB being better than the rest, don't make me laugh! It's their intransigence and blinkered approach that allowed the others to take over. Between JIB and the unions you have the two main causes for the current ills within the trade. They thought they had it all in their control and saw no need to change. So with their heads firmly stuck up their own waste outlets they let the world move on without them. The time for JIB to take over was when the discussions started and before the NIC et al got involved. The horse has not only bolted now, but he's lived a full life and died peacefully in his sleep of old age.

 

[Zeno]

NAPIT have asked all Councils if they will accept a NAPIT member to carry out work for them, over 95% have stated that they would. I agree that you will have to challenge the Council, as the contracts departments don't have a clue. If you are a NAPIT member call them, and they will sort it. But you will have to do something not just moan. Contractors are a problem as they can set any rule they want, as they benefit from using casual labour, or non Electricians to undercut real Electricians.