- Reaction score
- 453
I have revised and amended your list TEL
No 1 POLITICIANS
2 BANKERS
3 RATED PEOPLE
4 THE SCAMS
5 ESTATE AGENTS
6 CALL CENTRES
7 ADOLF HITLER
8 JUSTIN BIEBER
-
Please checkout the new poll we will be pushing hard, and want some good stories to come out of this
result are public - you can change your vote over time, which might genuinely be the case from time to time.
NICEIC Certification Scheme NICEIC Partner with Rated People!
- Thread starter IQ Electrical
- Start date
Search the forum,
I have revised and amended your list TEL
No 1 POLITICIANS
2 BANKERS
3 RATED PEOPLE
4 THE SCAMS
5 ESTATE AGENTS
6 CALL CENTRES
7 ADOLF HITLER
8 JUSTIN BIEBER
(You made a statement about why the electrician's mate got off, and I was just responding to that. If it was just an aside and you don't really care how or why he got off, that's cool.)
Loss adjusters? Piers Morgan?
You must think that we were all born just yesterday trying to feed us that sort of crap!! Any organisation that can deem or certify a electrical trainee or a 17 day whizz Kid as being competent, as well as also ratifying the course's that produce these wannabe's is doing so for one reason, and one reason only PROFIT!!
Tying yourself up with an organisation like ''Rated People'' just about sums up just how far you as a company are prepared to go in Chasing the Dollar stakes....
This has nothing to do with helping your members, as any self respecting fully qualified electrician would have nothing to do with an organisation that charges the tradesmen you supposedly represent, in order to quote for a job of work.
So pull the other leg, it's got bells on!!!
just wondered what your contractors thought about this, or were they not asked before you made the decision for them?
will they get free 'leads', better 'rp' status?
more like muppet .lol...
That's a great name for a Part P scam provider. MUPIT. I want to join.
Like we all know 99% of companies go into business for one reason only......and that's for the money
Not me though......I do everything for the greater good of course
Yes, that's correct, nothing wrong in that at all, but most if not all, are honest about it and don't try to make out, that they're something they most definitely are not!! Which the all scams and in particular the NICEIC seem to think they can do with impunity. They seem to think they can lie and get away with it, ...to it's members and the general public alike.
They'll be sponsoring the agencies next...with the aim of getting into that game !
Please tell me the official line on this scenario-
I set up a business with myself as QS, which according to your rules I'm well within my rights to do, I operate within a few miles of my home town and chugg along merrily paying my fees and being "audited" once a year.
I then get a large social housing project at the other end of the country handed to me and employ a load of poorly trained, semi literate clowns to do this work on my behalf while I sit back, notify the work and watch the £s roll in.
How do you propose that this work is checked because I don't care as long as the cash is coming in and there's nothing in your rules to prevent me from doing this. Plus, it's up to me which jobs I show you during the annual "audit"
After you've given me the official line you can give me your personal opinion.
The whole thing is a very bad joke.
£500 per offence and £500 per year.
Chance of being prosecuted. Nil
Hmmmmn
BUT I have got a little bit of work by being on electrical safety register.
If niceic properly promoted it i'd get loads more.
I get quite a lot of people asking me if i am 'part p' registered and good to be able to say yes, more likely to get job
One more than one occasion I have mentioned it and the customer has said "You're partly registered?". FFS.
Things are different outside civilisation (London!!) ;-)
But won't put any Dough into NICEIC's coffers, ...so as i pointed out on that thread, don't hold your breath!!
Well.... if they do nothing they are simply undermining there own credibility even further.......
Well it hasn't seemed to have bothered them too much to date!! Can you honestly see them being overly concerned now?? They only seem to take any action when their Logo is used being by a non, or lapsed member....
The fact is, they take your money, but have literally little to no legal responsibility past certifying that a member passed an assessment...
Agreed. Their logo may be involved but when you cut to the chase they aren't signing on the dotted line and, as a result, would not be responsible for any comebacks. Something dirty occurs and who wipes their hands ?
Surely they should be promoting trained, qualified and experienced electricians - in line with the view expressed in the Parliamentary Select Committee Report.:cheesy:
No they would not.
LABC do not have access to the data that the scams have sent to them over the last 3-4 years - it`s all in holding files.
Notification has only ever been about forcing you to join a scam - if it was about safety, they would require their members (not just a single assessed individual) to be real sparks.
It was noted by the Clive Betts MP, Chair of the Parliamentary Select Committee, that the ONLY thing the scams did agree on was that none of them wanted a Gas Safe style system - clearly on "safety" grounds.
Interesting comments in the NICEIC press release :
NICEIC | About Us | Press Releases
[h=3]Select Committee finding needs industry sense check[/h] Plans to overhaul the competent person’s scheme for domestic installers could prove burdensome for electrical contracting firms.
That is the view of NICEIC and ELECSA in response to parliamentary recommendations for all domestic electricians to have a qualification equivalent to NVQ level 3 within the next five years.
“Whilst we welcome many of the recommendations made by the committee we believe the requirement on all individuals, irrespective of the size of the firm or the work the individual undertakes, within a business to be fully qualified places a huge onus on firms,” commented Emma Clancy CEO of Certsure, which operates the NICEIC and ELECSA brands.
“To have all employees up to a Quality Supervisor (QS) level will push up costs and reduce the need for apprentices. The industry will suffer in the long term. It is also no guarantee to raise standards. (No, only those carrying out electrical work ....)
“The QS system, which Part P is based on, is proven to work and as the committee states in its report has actually pushed domestic electrical installation standards up in recent years.”
Under the current QS system, which all competent person scheme operators use, a firm must employ at least one qualified supervisor with a qualification equivalent to NVQ level 3. The QS is responsible for the final checking of work and the sign off that it has been tested and inspected in accordance with the appropriate standards and regulations.
No, there is no requirement for the QS to check the WORK, merely review it. Under H&S legislation, however, there IS a requirement to supervise unless that individual is competent to work unsupervised - "competent to work unsupervised" is the point of Level 3 qualifications!
“I think we need to be clear that the majority of electricians out there, working in people’s homes, are fully qualified and competent to carry out the work required of them".
Interesting comment, taking into account that the Minister appears to be under the impression that the Schemes do not hold information relating to the qualifications held by their members ....
“Around 80 per cent of the work carried out under Part P is done so by sole traders who have the appropriate qualifications and are able to test and inspect their own work.
See above comment:wink5:
“The view that some firms are sending out unqualified electricians, with just a few weeks training, to carry out jobs such as full rewires, unchecked, is simply not accurate. The majority of firms realise their responsibility to carry out work which is safe and to the required standard.
So how do the untrained, unqualifed and totally inexperienced "short course" sole traders carry out the work then?
“The QS system has worked in the industry for more than 50 years. The QS is legally responsible to ensure the work is carried out to standard - it is not a simple box ticking exercise.
So what would you call it then? - "supervision by proxy?"
“There are many different roles within a firm, each with varying responsibilities. The QS system allows firms to manage accordingly. Should you have to be trained to QS level to chase out walls for instance? Where is the evidence of such qualifications needed across the rest of the building sector? NICEIC and ELECSA have welcomed other recommendations in the report. In particular;
It was never even inferred that they should ....
“Our industry is not perfect and we agree the system can be improved so we welcome the committee’s comments,” added Emma. “Indeed many of the recommendations such as a single register we are already working on and will have in operation by June.
A single register that hides the untrained, unqualified and inexperienced ....
“We have run several public consumer campaigns reminding consumers about their responsibilities in relation to Part P and are the only scheme operator with a wall of shame which publically names rogue firms that work outside the rules. We work closely with trading standards to ensure these firms are fined accordingly
i.e. those who have not paid them ....
“The competent person scheme was based on our model and we will continue to adapt and evolve our business accordingly to work within the guidelines provided by central government.”
It WAS based on the NICEIC model, and that is the cause of many of the problems we now face as a trade.
Unfortunately, an enterprise can meet the Scheme requirements for running a QS system yet leave the QS wide open to prosecution under H&S requirements .... and a two year custodial sentence and unlimited fine ....
=========================================================================
To all Qualifed Supervisors - you have been warned.
To all those signing the delaration of conformity to BS7671 i.e. those who actually CERTIFY, YOU will be standing in court ALONE, as when the courts are involved th Schemes merely shrug their shoulders and walk away.
If YOU ran a Scheme, would you run the risk of giving evidence under oath? - I certainly wouldn`t.
No they would not.
LABC do not have access to the data that the scams have sent to them over the last 3-4 years - it`s all in holding files.
Notification has only ever been about forcing you to join a scam - if it was about safety, they would require their members (not just a single assessed individual) to be real sparks.
It was noted by Clive Betts MP, Chair of the Parliamentary Select Committee, that the ONLY thing the scams did agree on was that none of them wanted a Gas Safe style system - clearly on "safety" grounds.
Interesting comments in the NICEIC press release :
NICEIC | About Us | Press Releases
Select Committee finding needs industry sense check
Plans to overhaul the competent person’s scheme for domestic installers could prove burdensome for electrical contracting firms.
That is the view of NICEIC and ELECSA in response to parliamentary recommendations for all domestic electricians to have a qualification equivalent to NVQ level 3 within the next five years.
“Whilst we welcome many of the recommendations made by the committee we believe the requirement on all individuals, irrespective of the size of the firm or the work the individual undertakes, within a business to be fully qualified places a huge onus on firms,” commented Emma Clancy CEO of Certsure, which operates the NICEIC and ELECSA brands.
“To have all employees up to a Quality Supervisor (QS) level will push up costs and reduce the need for apprentices. The industry will suffer in the long term. It is also no guarantee to raise standards. (No, only those carrying out electrical work ....)
“The QS system, which Part P is based on, is proven to work and as the committee states in its report has actually pushed domestic electrical installation standards up in recent years.”
Under the current QS system, which all competent person scheme operators use, a firm must employ at least one qualified supervisor with a qualification equivalent to NVQ level 3. The QS is responsible for the final checking of work and the sign off that it has been tested and inspected in accordance with the appropriate standards and regulations.
No, there is no requirement for the QS to check the WORK, merely review it. Under H&S legislation, however, there IS a requirement to supervise unless that individual is competent to work unsupervised - "competent to work unsupervised" is the point of Level 3 qualifications!
“I think we need to be clear that the majority of electricians out there, working in people’s homes, are fully qualified and competent to carry out the work required of them".
Interesting comment, taking into account that the Minister appears to be under the impression that the Schemes do not hold information relating to the qualifications held by their members ....
“Around 80 per cent of the work carried out under Part P is done so by sole traders who have the appropriate qualifications and are able to test and inspect their own work.
See above comment:wink5:
“The view that some firms are sending out unqualified electricians, with just a few weeks training, to carry out jobs such as full rewires, unchecked, is simply not accurate. The majority of firms realise their responsibility to carry out work which is safe and to the required standard.
So how do the untrained, unqualifed and totally inexperienced "short course" sole traders carry out the work then?
“The QS system has worked in the industry for more than 50 years. The QS is legally responsible to ensure the work is carried out to standard - it is not a simple box ticking exercise.
So what would you call it then? - "supervision by proxy?"
“There are many different roles within a firm, each with varying responsibilities. The QS system allows firms to manage accordingly. Should you have to be trained to QS level to chase out walls for instance? Where is the evidence of such qualifications needed across the rest of the building sector? NICEIC and ELECSA have welcomed other recommendations in the report. In particular;
It was never even inferred that they should ....
“Our industry is not perfect and we agree the system can be improved so we welcome the committee’s comments,” added Emma. “Indeed many of the recommendations such as a single register we are already working on and will have in operation by June.
A single register that hides the untrained, unqualified and inexperienced ....
“We have run several public consumer campaigns reminding consumers about their responsibilities in relation to Part P and are the only scheme operator with a wall of shame which publically names rogue firms that work outside the rules. We work closely with trading standards to ensure these firms are fined accordingly
i.e. those who have not paid them ....
“The competent person scheme was based on our model and we will continue to adapt and evolve our business accordingly to work within the guidelines provided by central government.”
It WAS based on the NICEIC model, and that is the cause of many of the problems we now face as a trade.
Unfortunately, an enterprise can meet the Scheme requirements for running a QS system yet leave the QS wide open to prosecution under H&S requirements .... and a two year custodial sentence and unlimited fine ....
=========================================================================
To all Qualifed Supervisors - you have been warned.
To all those signing the delaration of conformity to BS7671 i.e. those who actually CERTIFY, YOU will be standing in court ALONE, as when the courts are involved th Schemes merely shrug their shoulders and walk away.
If YOU ran a Scheme, would you run the risk of giving evidence under oath? - I certainly wouldn`t.
Discuss NICEIC Partner with Rated People! in the Certification NICEIC, NAPIT, Stroma, BECSA Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net
I have revised and amended your list TEL
No 1 POLITICIANS
2 BANKERS
3 RATED PEOPLE
4 THE SCAMS
5 ESTATE AGENTS
6 CALL CENTRES
7 ADOLF HITLER
8 JUSTIN BIEBER
N
NickD
(You made a statement about why the electrician's mate got off, and I was just responding to that. If it was just an aside and you don't really care how or why he got off, that's cool.)
N
NickD
Loss adjusters? Piers Morgan?
E
Engineer54
Originally Posted by NICEIC ENGINEER
NICEIC was approached with an offer by Rated People which we felt might be beneficial to our contractors.
There is no commercial gain for NICEIC. The offer is for a trial period only.
NICEIC is committed to promoting the work of its contractors to householders and believe all electrical work in the home should be undertaken by competent, registered tradespeople.
However, we appreciate your feedback on this issue and will be reviewing the offer going forward.
You must think that we were all born just yesterday trying to feed us that sort of crap!! Any organisation that can deem or certify a electrical trainee or a 17 day whizz Kid as being competent, as well as also ratifying the course's that produce these wannabe's is doing so for one reason, and one reason only PROFIT!!
Tying yourself up with an organisation like ''Rated People'' just about sums up just how far you as a company are prepared to go in Chasing the Dollar stakes....
This has nothing to do with helping your members, as any self respecting fully qualified electrician would have nothing to do with an organisation that charges the tradesmen you supposedly represent, in order to quote for a job of work.
So pull the other leg, it's got bells on!!!
J
jaypp
just wondered what your contractors thought about this, or were they not asked before you made the decision for them?
will they get free 'leads', better 'rp' status?
E
Engineer54
I wonder what the NICEIC are doing about these two people involved in this prosecution case?? Are they both still under the NICEIC cloak of registered ''Competent'' persons?? Or, have they been defrocked so to speak, i think NOT!!
N
NickD
Well done NICEIC for reviewing the offer "going forward" and clarifying that you don't in fact have a time machine.
R
R G
more like muppet .lol...
B
Badged01
The're much misaligned and rarely understood ..... their passion is the electrical industry!
N
NickD
That's a great name for a Part P scam provider. MUPIT. I want to join.
M
MDJ
I think your thinking of Crapit Nick :38:
Chrisuk
-
- Reaction score
- 76
You must think that we were all born just yesterday trying to feed us that sort of crap!! Any organisation that can deem or certify a electrical trainee or a 17 day whizz Kid as being competent, as well as also ratifying the course's that produce these wannabe's is doing so for one reason, and one reason only PROFIT!!
Tying yourself up with an organisation like ''Rated People'' just about sums up just how far you as a company are prepared to go in Chasing the Dollar stakes....
This has nothing to do with helping your members, as any self respecting fully qualified electrician would have nothing to do with an organisation that charges the tradesmen you supposedly represent, in order to quote for a job of work.
So pull the other leg, it's got bells on!!! [/FONT][/COLOR][/SIZE]
Like we all know 99% of companies go into business for one reason only......and that's for the money
Not me though......I do everything for the greater good of course
E
Engineer54
Like we all know 99% of companies go into business for one reason only......and that's for the money
Not me though......I do everything for the greater good of course
Yes, that's correct, nothing wrong in that at all, but most if not all, are honest about it and don't try to make out, that they're something they most definitely are not!! Which the all scams and in particular the NICEIC seem to think they can do with impunity. They seem to think they can lie and get away with it, ...to it's members and the general public alike.
- Reaction score
- 6,965
They'll be sponsoring the agencies next...with the aim of getting into that game !
T
trev
Do you honestly think we were born yesterday? This is possibly the biggest load of nonsense I've ever had the misfortune to read.
Please tell me the official line on this scenario-
I set up a business with myself as QS, which according to your rules I'm well within my rights to do, I operate within a few miles of my home town and chugg along merrily paying my fees and being "audited" once a year.
I then get a large social housing project at the other end of the country handed to me and employ a load of poorly trained, semi literate clowns to do this work on my behalf while I sit back, notify the work and watch the £s roll in.
How do you propose that this work is checked because I don't care as long as the cash is coming in and there's nothing in your rules to prevent me from doing this. Plus, it's up to me which jobs I show you during the annual "audit"
After you've given me the official line you can give me your personal opinion.
The whole thing is a very bad joke.
N
NickD
- Reaction score
- 386
Maybe they can be encouraged in a similar way to do some real promotion of the trade! My Area Engineer said that they're talking about getting rid of the "free" Essential guide at the end of the year they'll probably sell it instead for ridiculous money and insist the members have access to it , thus increasing their fees, in my view its about the only good thing they do supply to their members.
- Reaction score
- 2,810
Anyway, back on the original topic............
E
Eddiesparks
£500 per offence and £500 per year.
Chance of being prosecuted. Nil
Hmmmmn
BUT I have got a little bit of work by being on electrical safety register.
If niceic properly promoted it i'd get loads more.
I get quite a lot of people asking me if i am 'part p' registered and good to be able to say yes, more likely to get job
O
Octopus
When I saw my copy of this I laughed. Seems they might understand the feeling within the community they are supposed to promote after all....... which means they might just realise how precarious their precious jobs really are.Anyway, back on the original topic............
R
R G
I got the same , If the NIC really want to help their contractors get more work , why don't they make the public more aware of electrical safety and promote their PROPERLY qualified contractors , and stop getting involved with these short course fly by nights , that would do a much better job than getting into bed with these people ,,,
OP
- Reaction score
- 1,512
Fair play to NICEIC for the response but I'm still amazed at how out of touch they are with us contractors that they ever thought this was a good move.
Maybe some consultation on forums etc. might have been a good move before making the decision-maybe some good might come from this. Maybe
Maybe some consultation on forums etc. might have been a good move before making the decision-maybe some good might come from this. Maybe
R
R G
May be it was all an April fool thing ,,,
S
SPARTYKUS
N
NickD
One more than one occasion I have mentioned it and the customer has said "You're partly registered?". FFS.
O
Octopus
I regularly get asked!
E
Eddiesparks
Things are different outside civilisation (London!!) ;-)
S
SPARTYKUS
O
Octopus
I'm hoping that the NICEIC Engineer is reading this and takes some time to review this thread:
http://www.electriciansforums.co.uk...ns/89727-how-many-eicrs-day-2.html#post934864
And then if the company in question is one of their members does something in the way of a follow up with said member!! In this way the NICEIC would be doing something positive for us all.
http://www.electriciansforums.co.uk...ns/89727-how-many-eicrs-day-2.html#post934864
And then if the company in question is one of their members does something in the way of a follow up with said member!! In this way the NICEIC would be doing something positive for us all.
E
Engineer54
But won't put any Dough into NICEIC's coffers, ...so as i pointed out on that thread, don't hold your breath!!
O
Octopus
Well.... if they do nothing they are simply undermining there own credibility even further.......
E
Engineer54
Well it hasn't seemed to have bothered them too much to date!! Can you honestly see them being overly concerned now?? They only seem to take any action when their Logo is used being by a non, or lapsed member....
The fact is, they take your money, but have literally little to no legal responsibility past certifying that a member passed an assessment...
T
trev
Anyone else noticed that yer man from NIC bugs out as soon as the going gets a little rough and doesn't come back for weeks?
He must think everything will have calmed down so it's safe to poke the sleeping animal with a pointy stick.
He must think everything will have calmed down so it's safe to poke the sleeping animal with a pointy stick.
- Reaction score
- 6,965
Agreed. Their logo may be involved but when you cut to the chase they aren't signing on the dotted line and, as a result, would not be responsible for any comebacks. Something dirty occurs and who wipes their hands ?
Z
Zebra Stripe
A good way of getting round the legal mine field of using the NICEIC logo if not registered with them is as follows........buy T-shirts and van decals with the electrical safety register logo...
Now the important part...
for T-shirts spill egg yolk over the Elecsa bit and brown sauce over the eca bit..hey presto a T-shirt sporting NICEIC logo with no come back what so ever, this will usually last for approximately two weeks before decay takes over and the eca, elecsa appear through the mold.
For Van decals, smash into a passing badger and smear its blood over the elecsa bit and then park under a tree full of pigeons until the eca bit has been tarnished, again hey presto your now fully van decaled up as an niceic professional without any come back whatso ever......impressed ? I was....:drunk:
Now the important part...
for T-shirts spill egg yolk over the Elecsa bit and brown sauce over the eca bit..hey presto a T-shirt sporting NICEIC logo with no come back what so ever, this will usually last for approximately two weeks before decay takes over and the eca, elecsa appear through the mold.
For Van decals, smash into a passing badger and smear its blood over the elecsa bit and then park under a tree full of pigeons until the eca bit has been tarnished, again hey presto your now fully van decaled up as an niceic professional without any come back whatso ever......impressed ? I was....:drunk:
- Reaction score
- 94
Surely they should be promoting trained, qualified and experienced electricians - in line with the view expressed in the Parliamentary Select Committee Report.:cheesy:
- Reaction score
- 94
No they would not.
LABC do not have access to the data that the scams have sent to them over the last 3-4 years - it`s all in holding files.
Notification has only ever been about forcing you to join a scam - if it was about safety, they would require their members (not just a single assessed individual) to be real sparks.
It was noted by the Clive Betts MP, Chair of the Parliamentary Select Committee, that the ONLY thing the scams did agree on was that none of them wanted a Gas Safe style system - clearly on "safety" grounds.
Interesting comments in the NICEIC press release :
NICEIC | About Us | Press Releases
[h=3]Select Committee finding needs industry sense check[/h] Plans to overhaul the competent person’s scheme for domestic installers could prove burdensome for electrical contracting firms.
That is the view of NICEIC and ELECSA in response to parliamentary recommendations for all domestic electricians to have a qualification equivalent to NVQ level 3 within the next five years.
“Whilst we welcome many of the recommendations made by the committee we believe the requirement on all individuals, irrespective of the size of the firm or the work the individual undertakes, within a business to be fully qualified places a huge onus on firms,” commented Emma Clancy CEO of Certsure, which operates the NICEIC and ELECSA brands.
“To have all employees up to a Quality Supervisor (QS) level will push up costs and reduce the need for apprentices. The industry will suffer in the long term. It is also no guarantee to raise standards. (No, only those carrying out electrical work ....)
“The QS system, which Part P is based on, is proven to work and as the committee states in its report has actually pushed domestic electrical installation standards up in recent years.”
Under the current QS system, which all competent person scheme operators use, a firm must employ at least one qualified supervisor with a qualification equivalent to NVQ level 3. The QS is responsible for the final checking of work and the sign off that it has been tested and inspected in accordance with the appropriate standards and regulations.
No, there is no requirement for the QS to check the WORK, merely review it. Under H&S legislation, however, there IS a requirement to supervise unless that individual is competent to work unsupervised - "competent to work unsupervised" is the point of Level 3 qualifications!
“I think we need to be clear that the majority of electricians out there, working in people’s homes, are fully qualified and competent to carry out the work required of them".
Interesting comment, taking into account that the Minister appears to be under the impression that the Schemes do not hold information relating to the qualifications held by their members ....
“Around 80 per cent of the work carried out under Part P is done so by sole traders who have the appropriate qualifications and are able to test and inspect their own work.
See above comment:wink5:
“The view that some firms are sending out unqualified electricians, with just a few weeks training, to carry out jobs such as full rewires, unchecked, is simply not accurate. The majority of firms realise their responsibility to carry out work which is safe and to the required standard.
So how do the untrained, unqualifed and totally inexperienced "short course" sole traders carry out the work then?
“The QS system has worked in the industry for more than 50 years. The QS is legally responsible to ensure the work is carried out to standard - it is not a simple box ticking exercise.
So what would you call it then? - "supervision by proxy?"
“There are many different roles within a firm, each with varying responsibilities. The QS system allows firms to manage accordingly. Should you have to be trained to QS level to chase out walls for instance? Where is the evidence of such qualifications needed across the rest of the building sector? NICEIC and ELECSA have welcomed other recommendations in the report. In particular;
- Calls for an annual limit on the number of jobs that a single QS can review
- Action from the government to raise public awareness of Part P - similar to that of Gas Safe
- Proactive enforcement against those who breach Part P and those who work outside of competent person schemes
- A single register for all Part P electricians covering all schemes
It was never even inferred that they should ....
“Our industry is not perfect and we agree the system can be improved so we welcome the committee’s comments,” added Emma. “Indeed many of the recommendations such as a single register we are already working on and will have in operation by June.
A single register that hides the untrained, unqualified and inexperienced ....
“We have run several public consumer campaigns reminding consumers about their responsibilities in relation to Part P and are the only scheme operator with a wall of shame which publically names rogue firms that work outside the rules. We work closely with trading standards to ensure these firms are fined accordingly
i.e. those who have not paid them ....
“The competent person scheme was based on our model and we will continue to adapt and evolve our business accordingly to work within the guidelines provided by central government.”
It WAS based on the NICEIC model, and that is the cause of many of the problems we now face as a trade.
Unfortunately, an enterprise can meet the Scheme requirements for running a QS system yet leave the QS wide open to prosecution under H&S requirements .... and a two year custodial sentence and unlimited fine ....
=========================================================================
To all Qualifed Supervisors - you have been warned.
To all those signing the delaration of conformity to BS7671 i.e. those who actually CERTIFY, YOU will be standing in court ALONE, as when the courts are involved th Schemes merely shrug their shoulders and walk away.
If YOU ran a Scheme, would you run the risk of giving evidence under oath? - I certainly wouldn`t.
- Reaction score
- 94
No they would not.
LABC do not have access to the data that the scams have sent to them over the last 3-4 years - it`s all in holding files.
Notification has only ever been about forcing you to join a scam - if it was about safety, they would require their members (not just a single assessed individual) to be real sparks.
It was noted by Clive Betts MP, Chair of the Parliamentary Select Committee, that the ONLY thing the scams did agree on was that none of them wanted a Gas Safe style system - clearly on "safety" grounds.
Interesting comments in the NICEIC press release :
NICEIC | About Us | Press Releases
Select Committee finding needs industry sense check
Plans to overhaul the competent person’s scheme for domestic installers could prove burdensome for electrical contracting firms.
That is the view of NICEIC and ELECSA in response to parliamentary recommendations for all domestic electricians to have a qualification equivalent to NVQ level 3 within the next five years.
“Whilst we welcome many of the recommendations made by the committee we believe the requirement on all individuals, irrespective of the size of the firm or the work the individual undertakes, within a business to be fully qualified places a huge onus on firms,” commented Emma Clancy CEO of Certsure, which operates the NICEIC and ELECSA brands.
“To have all employees up to a Quality Supervisor (QS) level will push up costs and reduce the need for apprentices. The industry will suffer in the long term. It is also no guarantee to raise standards. (No, only those carrying out electrical work ....)
“The QS system, which Part P is based on, is proven to work and as the committee states in its report has actually pushed domestic electrical installation standards up in recent years.”
Under the current QS system, which all competent person scheme operators use, a firm must employ at least one qualified supervisor with a qualification equivalent to NVQ level 3. The QS is responsible for the final checking of work and the sign off that it has been tested and inspected in accordance with the appropriate standards and regulations.
No, there is no requirement for the QS to check the WORK, merely review it. Under H&S legislation, however, there IS a requirement to supervise unless that individual is competent to work unsupervised - "competent to work unsupervised" is the point of Level 3 qualifications!
“I think we need to be clear that the majority of electricians out there, working in people’s homes, are fully qualified and competent to carry out the work required of them".
Interesting comment, taking into account that the Minister appears to be under the impression that the Schemes do not hold information relating to the qualifications held by their members ....
“Around 80 per cent of the work carried out under Part P is done so by sole traders who have the appropriate qualifications and are able to test and inspect their own work.
See above comment:wink5:
“The view that some firms are sending out unqualified electricians, with just a few weeks training, to carry out jobs such as full rewires, unchecked, is simply not accurate. The majority of firms realise their responsibility to carry out work which is safe and to the required standard.
So how do the untrained, unqualifed and totally inexperienced "short course" sole traders carry out the work then?
“The QS system has worked in the industry for more than 50 years. The QS is legally responsible to ensure the work is carried out to standard - it is not a simple box ticking exercise.
So what would you call it then? - "supervision by proxy?"
“There are many different roles within a firm, each with varying responsibilities. The QS system allows firms to manage accordingly. Should you have to be trained to QS level to chase out walls for instance? Where is the evidence of such qualifications needed across the rest of the building sector? NICEIC and ELECSA have welcomed other recommendations in the report. In particular;
- Calls for an annual limit on the number of jobs that a single QS can review
- Action from the government to raise public awareness of Part P - similar to that of Gas Safe
- Proactive enforcement against those who breach Part P and those who work outside of competent person schemes
- A single register for all Part P electricians covering all schemes
It was never even inferred that they should ....
“Our industry is not perfect and we agree the system can be improved so we welcome the committee’s comments,” added Emma. “Indeed many of the recommendations such as a single register we are already working on and will have in operation by June.
A single register that hides the untrained, unqualified and inexperienced ....
“We have run several public consumer campaigns reminding consumers about their responsibilities in relation to Part P and are the only scheme operator with a wall of shame which publically names rogue firms that work outside the rules. We work closely with trading standards to ensure these firms are fined accordingly
i.e. those who have not paid them ....
“The competent person scheme was based on our model and we will continue to adapt and evolve our business accordingly to work within the guidelines provided by central government.”
It WAS based on the NICEIC model, and that is the cause of many of the problems we now face as a trade.
Unfortunately, an enterprise can meet the Scheme requirements for running a QS system yet leave the QS wide open to prosecution under H&S requirements .... and a two year custodial sentence and unlimited fine ....
=========================================================================
To all Qualifed Supervisors - you have been warned.
To all those signing the delaration of conformity to BS7671 i.e. those who actually CERTIFY, YOU will be standing in court ALONE, as when the courts are involved th Schemes merely shrug their shoulders and walk away.
If YOU ran a Scheme, would you run the risk of giving evidence under oath? - I certainly wouldn`t.
- Reaction score
- 343
PART P, 22 pages, lots of places doing part P course, then you can go out and fix things, its all good now days if you got a problem just go on internet and ask.
Or you can go one step up the ladder and do 17edition course, it is a lot harder as the BOOK has got 464 pages.
Or you can, and this is the thing spend 3 years learning and anther 2 years learning more it is a long time but at end you will not be asking what do, as for this if NIC had gone with it would they have offered a mouth free member ship to a nail-bar so they can go out and do a little bit of testing as we all know its a god dam easy way to get the pounds in, you can do at lest 67 a day with not getting out getting out offfff van,
Or you can go one step up the ladder and do 17edition course, it is a lot harder as the BOOK has got 464 pages.
Or you can, and this is the thing spend 3 years learning and anther 2 years learning more it is a long time but at end you will not be asking what do, as for this if NIC had gone with it would they have offered a mouth free member ship to a nail-bar so they can go out and do a little bit of testing as we all know its a god dam easy way to get the pounds in, you can do at lest 67 a day with not getting out getting out offfff van,
- Reaction score
- 3,928
I hate rate a trader type and bid for customers work type websites. They're a middleman where a middleman isn't needed IMO.
There are enough tradespeople out there for customers to find quite easily.
And their revenue comes from making money out of the trader, who shouldn't need to pay for leads or work, or the customer, who should be spending it on the job and not needing to pay X amount of the job money to find a tradesman.
A large job could end up with half a dozen tradesmen in. And think of all that cash that is being siphoned off the job.
Bad move IMO.
There are enough tradespeople out there for customers to find quite easily.
And their revenue comes from making money out of the trader, who shouldn't need to pay for leads or work, or the customer, who should be spending it on the job and not needing to pay X amount of the job money to find a tradesman.
A large job could end up with half a dozen tradesmen in. And think of all that cash that is being siphoned off the job.
Bad move IMO.
- Reaction score
- 3,928
That's a terrible idea. What came of this?
R
R G
I wouldn't dream of going down this route if I wanted a job done around the house , It strikes me that the sort who do are those that would like to turn you over ....
Reply to NICEIC Partner with Rated People! in the Certification NICEIC, NAPIT, Stroma, BECSA Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net
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