Night Storage radiator swap for convector heater

[Pip]

Hi People,

Had a request from local estate agent who is an agent for a landlord,

Property (small Kitchen/Diner, living room, 3 bedrooms and bathroom) has night storage heaters in all rooms, except 2 bedrooms and bathroom, these have convector heaters, tennant wants to change third bedroom storage heater to a convector heater as per the other bedrooms.

There is a timer fitted next to the meter, plus 3 Consumer units, 2 of which are marked 'night storage' beaking down to 7 breakers, one for each radiater (?) so I assume the property has duel tariff electricity.

So is there a problem with swapping out the bedroom storage heater for a convector heater as per the other bedrooms?

What size heater would work for a room approx 12' x 9' x 12' = 1296 cubic feet?

Fuel bills I would think would be higher due to timer on meter and tariff, but that's down to the Tennant yes?

Any advise would be appreciated

Pip

 

[ridemx27]

hi mate yes the timer is whats switching the load on during off peak hours is it the suppliers timer or 1 that has been installed after the meter ? 1st thing i would do is locate the bedroom circuit in the off peak consumer unit and make sure it can be moved easy enough into your on peak consumer unit as you will need a 24hr supply, and that u have a spare way and breaker to fit etc, also once circuit has been moved i would fill out a minor works for it and make sure its all up to regs espcially bein for a landlord u know what tennants can be like claim for anything these days, an u will be liable as last to touch! not too good with sizes off the top of my head but all the heater manufaturers state room sizes and btu outputs on there websites, tbh honest tho there is only really 3 common sizes of heaters so i would take a guess form the sizes and heaters in the other rooms, hope this may be of some help, rob

 

[Deleted member 9648]

hi mate yes the timer is whats switching the load on during off peak hours is it the suppliers timer or 1 that has been installed after the meter ? 1st thing i would do is locate the bedroom circuit in the off peak consumer unit and make sure it can be moved easy enough into your on peak consumer unit as you will need a 24hr supply, and that u have a spare way and breaker to fit etc, also once circuit has been moved i would fill out a minor works for it and make sure its all up to regs espcially bein for a landlord u know what tennants can be like claim for anything these days, an u will be liable as last to touch! not too good with sizes off the top of my head but all the heater manufaturers state room sizes and btu outputs on there websites, tbh honest tho there is only really 3 common sizes of heaters so i would take a guess form the sizes and heaters in the other rooms, hope this may be of some help, rob

Should probably be a full EIC rather than M/W as you will be adding a circuit to the on peak board.

 

[ridemx27]

oh course yeah it should be a installtion cert ticked as addition i suppose , could end up a big job to do depending on age of cu and rcd protection and bonding etc, i would take a good look at the whole installtion first as may end up costing alot of money to replace something thats not broken!!

 

[Pip]

Thanks guys,
This job could turn into something a little larger than than the landlord expects...
On closer inspection as I say there are 3 CU. I have found the CU #1 is marked 'Ordinary Domestic' is a 6 way, 2 x 5amp light circuits 1 x 15amp circuit, (not sure what that feeds, can't read markings) and 3 x 30 amp circuits, Ring, Cooker, and NOBO which is the name of the convector heaters, I suspect this feeds CU number 3 which is a 3 way + spare marked NOBO Heaters, (CU #2 is a 5 way + spare marked night storage) so going on the info from MX27 I could move the feed to the NOBO CU, and replace storage heater for a convector heater, and what, issue a minor works or EIC?
Thanks Pip

 

[Pip]

NO dedicated RCD on installation, all CU are Wylex style trip switches, with push button to test on each circuit, buildings are newish development, 20 years old perhaps

 

[ridemx27]

yeah sounds like the cu labelled nobo will be the kiddie, problem is once thats circuits moved if the wiring is in the fabric of the building 30ma r.c.d protection is req if u want to be compliant anyway! so new cu will be req depending on his his budget and how far he wants to go i would push towards upgrading all at once but cheapist option would be just upgrade the nobo board i cant see a problem with it still being fed from the main board just makes testing and filling out the cert a lil more complex and obv make sure all earthing is present and of a correct size, its a shame what should be such an easy job is not goin to be, also regards to size of heater i would imagine 2.0 kw would be adequate but if hes like any landlords i know the storage heater will be staying put till the day it dies! And yes it would have to be a domestic installation cert. I take it all boards are the moulded plastic type and not wooden back ?

 

[Pip]

Yeah, see where we are going with this, upgrading the whole lot I don't see happening,
As CU #1 with 2 lighting circuits, and 1 ring, cooker and unknown 15 amp circuit and feed to CU # 3 to fit a dual RCD CU would be desired.
Would it be possible to do that and leave CU # 2 as is, move the storage heater circuit to CU # 3 with the rest of the NOBO convector's?
How many RCD's should/could there be on such an installation?
CU#2 being fed from the low tarriff clock would be looked at as a seperate installation, but this CU shares the same earth and neutrals, so could this have it's own dedicated RCD?

Not dealt with any split tariff installtions before, so forgive me if it's a dumb question

Room is an issue where these CU's are fitted, CU #1 is a full 6 way, CU # 2 is another 6 way, and CU # 3 is a 4 way, and they are fitted one above the other, and fill the width of the cupboard they are in....

 

[poirot]

You may be able to fit a wylex rcbo into existing nobo board, this job will need notifying.

 

[Pip]

Hi Poirot
Nice idea, but would this negate the need to upgrade any and all of the other CU's in the system?
I suspect not, But then as I'm not changing any of the original installation of CU#1 and CU#2 it could be the way to go.

Anyone with any other views please?

 

[ridemx27]

hi i dont believe there is any rcbo available as a retro fit to my knowledge but correct me if im wrong, im sayin they are wylex retro fit mcbs goin by the fact pip said they have a round push in button to reset which was the early type of retro fit mcbs. the unknown 15a in cu no1 is prob goin to be immersion or a radial. neutral and earth is always shared on dual tariff usally all go back to a service block and met thats fine. 1 rcd would be acceptable for convectors, split load prob not an option due to size of board and little room as u say and tbh not really needed, best option is 6 way cu with 4 rcbos but thts around £150 as appose to around £ 50 for 6 way with rcd no main switch needed use the rcd. you will need to feed the new cu from cu 1 as before in suitable size cable prob 4 or 6mm and will have to be put on cert as distribution circuit and tested like all other but will not require rcd protection so existing mcb should be fine, im trying to picture in my head with what your telling me so without seein there could be things im missing, this should be a run of the mill task for an electrician if ur unsure i would say leave as it is and put a plug in convector heator on the wall near a socket ( as a cheap landlord freindly solution) not corret tho i no, and maybe discard of the storage heater if neccesary

 

[Pip]

Hi All,

Please see pic of CU's in question,



I agree with you on the 15 amp on CU 1

So what to do, Swap out CU 1 so it includes an RCD (s) or number 3 to include RCD?
Leave number 2 alone, and test the whole circuit, (probaly needs doing anyway as it's a rental property, new tennant 18 months ago, should have a ticket but not had it confirmed)

 

[ridemx27]

yes they are the early retro fit mcb i was thinkin of, and what to do will depend upon the budget, i personally would start the job off with a periodic report as being a rented property it should be done. Then to replace cu3 and move the cicuit and rcd protect cu3 only would be the cheaper option, but i suppose to replace cu1 would be the more correct approach. 1 thing tho i cant see from the pic are they the wooden backed cu ? if they are then i would code all 3 as code 1 as the cu is made from a combustable material then replace the lot as you will not be able to make any alterations to them. might have to adjust that cupboard slightly tho tight in there lol

 

[Amp David]

Just had a similar job but with 2 CUs. Unable to put the E7 circuits into the standard rate CU, so United Utilities came out and disconnected the E7 meter, put tail through an isolator, into henlys then 2 sets of tails into the henlys. No charge either.

Saved me having to mess about swapping CU etc

 

[ridemx27]

tbh it doesnt look like this circuit is goin to reach down to the bottom board either unless they come from floor up but i think he will still have 4 eco7 circs in use in the middle board so eco7 meter would have to stay i think.

 

[poirot]

Sorry, i missed the post about the round push in buttons!