Observations From France

[Mr.Simple]

Guys, I will again point out that I am not an electrician but an electronics engineer, so please be patient with me. I recently chatted to a French electrician to identify some key and basic differences between here and France. I was surprised at some of them and thought that most had merit, and decided to share for feedback. Please approach this with an open mind rather than an automatic British is best.

1. They have no ring circuits, all are radial. Power is delivered via 2.5mm wires to up to 8 sockets protected by a 20A breaker. This means that a fault in the wiring results in the customer seeing no power in part do the cct, and they then call someone in to fix it. Here if a ring breaks down all of the CCT remains live and the customer is unaware of the fault.

2. High load appliances, dishwashers, washing machines, tumble driers etc, have dedicated circuits protected by appropriate breakers. This extends the concept that we use for cooker circuits.

3. The breakers in the Consumer unit are double pole switching both live and neutral. This means that if for any reason the polarity is wrong throwing the consumer unit breaker will always isolate the circuit. I know that people may argue that polarity is treated, but are there ever mistakes?

4. The bus bars (live and neutral) lie above the breakers, with the circuit wires coming from the bottom of the breakers. I think in the uk our live bus bar is at the bottom with the circuit lives coming from the top of the breakers. This seems plain wrong as we all know that electricity flows better downhill (electrons are affected by gravity too).

i welcome your thoughts

 

[telectrix]

your points 1,2, & 3 all have thier merits, but as fot electrickery flowing better downhill, it's time for your tin hat. these used to be popular in france:

 

[Pete999]

So that's why they say it;s best to install the consumers unit at a higher level, to get a better flow, marvelous

 

[Marvo]

You can overdo it though, if the CU is mounted too high the electrons can get scared resulting in unstable voltages.

 

[Mr.Simple]

You can overdo it though, if the CU is mounted too high the electrons can get scared resulting in unstable voltages.

That will explain why CU's are usually mounted in cupboards. As a CU in a tower block would be very high It would be necessary to ensure that they don't see how high they actually are.

 

[telectrix]

:76:heree we have some tower block electrons.

 

[Marvo]

That will explain why CU's are usually mounted in cupboards. As a CU in a tower block would be very high It would be necessary to ensure that they don't see how high they actually are.

It's also the reason most wires are insulated, an ignorant electron is a happy electron

 

[telectrix]

ah, but what about those electrons that have only done a Electrical Trainee course. should they be confined to ELV?

 

[Engineer54]

Guys, I will again point out that I am not an electrician but an electronics engineer, so please be patient with me. I recently chatted to a French electrician to identify some key and basic differences between here and France. I was surprised at some of them and thought that most had merit, and decided to share for feedback. Please approach this with an open mind rather than an automatic British is best.

1. They have no ring circuits, all are radial. Power is delivered via 2.5mm wires to up to 8 sockets protected by a 20A breaker. This means that a fault in the wiring results in the customer seeing no power in part do the cct, and they then call someone in to fix it. Here if a ring breaks down all of the CCT remains live and the customer is unaware of the fault.

2. High load appliances, dishwashers, washing machines, tumble driers etc, have dedicated circuits protected by appropriate breakers. This extends the concept that we use for cooker circuits.

3. The breakers in the Consumer unit are double pole switching both live and neutral. This means that if for any reason the polarity is wrong throwing the consumer unit breaker will always isolate the circuit. I know that people may argue that polarity is treated, but are there ever mistakes?

4. The bus bars (live and neutral) lie above the breakers, with the circuit wires coming from the bottom of the breakers. I think in the uk our live bus bar is at the bottom with the circuit lives coming from the top of the breakers. This seems plain wrong as we all know that electricity flows better downhill (electrons are affected by gravity too).

i welcome your thoughts

One very big drawback for applying all those items 1. 2. 3, which is the size of the CU that'll be required to contain all those extra MCB's. Then virtually double it for them being DP breakers!!!

 

[ArseyDee]

One very big drawback for applying all those items 1. 2. 3, which is the size of the CU that'll be required to contain all those extra MCB's. Then virtually double it for them being DP breakers!!!

But on the plus side, it would require a nice big dedicated space, rather than awkward access to our existing CU's buried at the back of the shoe cupboard or in a kitchen base unit, etc, etc......

 

[Lighthouse Phil]

Apart from the DP breakers, the wiring here in Ireland is very similar. We'd have two 20A radial circuits for kitchens (or more, depending on size of room),

We also have neutralised electrons, they don't know the difference between up or down, left or right.. Don't ask how the electrons get neutralised, its a long story......

 

[bigspark17]

Intresting post mr simple..
Point 1- big draw back of radials is loading isusses and u say if there is a problem the circuit stops working well this isnt true if the cpc is lost on one of the first sockets leaves the rest with no cpc connected could be very dangerous with some class 1 equip.
Point 2- love it if it suits.. Often wired dishwashers, tumble dryers microwaves on their own supply!
Point 3- yeah great idea to have double pole breakers commercially but domestically isnt going to happen i belive the rcd covers this adequatly enough.. Dont wanna do ourselfs out of any callouts!
Point 4- load of rubbish really!

 

[Mr.Simple]

One very big drawback for applying all those items 1. 2. 3, which is the size of the CU that'll be required to contain all those extra MCB's. Then virtually double it for them being DP breakers!!!

you are quite right that there are likely to be more McB's than a typical uk installation, but is that a bad thing? However you are wrong about the size of DP MCB's they are exactly the same size as a uk variety, now twice the size. The French also seem to like to have CU's that have multiple rows of MCB' and these are not much larger that a typical Uk variety ( less wide but a bit taller).

 

[Deleted member 72666]

All I can say on the matter is at least our plugs are fused! :rockon2:

 

[telectrix]

yeah. usually into the socket if the load is > 8A.

 

[Engineer54]

you are quite right that there are likely to be more McB's than a typical uk installation, but is that a bad thing? However you are wrong about the size of DP MCB's they are exactly the same size as a uk variety, now twice the size. The French also seem to like to have CU's that have multiple rows of MCB' and these are not much larger that a typical Uk variety ( less wide but a bit taller).

We must be looking at different sized DB's then because the examples i've seen in France are decidedly bigger than a typical UK CU. Depending on the installations size, it's not uncommon to see 3 RCD units of 2 different types and an outlet in French DB's. God forbid if that DB also has pulse relays for the control of lighting circuits (can't remember the correct name for them).

Yes you could be right on DP MCB's, we make use of those single pole with switched neutral MCB's and RCBO's in some of our Lab installations....

 

[Marvo]

...we make use of those single pole with switched neutral MCB's and RCBO's in some of our Lab installations....

We also use them in certain applications. They're known as SP&N (single pole and neutral) breakers locally.

 

[Knobhead]

To me the use of SP+N MCB’s makes sense. But then I was brought up with centre tapped 230V under M&Q where every thing had to be DP.

I never did do much domestic stuff, it works out at one house every eight years.

I don’t like radials, they smack of being a simplistic easy get out.

 

[Lucien Nunes]

pulse relays for the control of lighting circuits (can't remember the correct name for them).

Télérupteurs?

Points 1&2 are not so much observations from France but from the rest of the world. We are the odd one out, with a canny system that relies on diversity to save material. It usually works quite well but is technically a fudge, often done wrongly and painful to test. It goes hand in hand with fused plugs which are equally a mixed blessing.

Point 3 I would like to see here too. Since the ESQCR and the revisions to the 11th edition did away with DP fusing (because the neutral was then deemed to be in permanent and effective contact with earth) a tradition has grown up of fiddling about with screw terminals to isolate a circuit. It didn't matter so much when nobody did EICRs and there were no RCDs - you could put your cutters through a cable and if the fuse was out it didn't go bang. But now that's not possible, you have to take the wire out, which is daft. Likewise, in the event of a fault causing a trip, it's handy if the circuit is then completely isolated from the rest of the system so as not to cause further trouble until repaired.

Point 4 - It's easier to install and check cables in the top of breakers unless the board is above your head. DB technicalities seem to be over the heads of many so-called electricians these days.

 

[Engineer54]

Points 1&2 are not so much observations from France but from the rest of the world. We are the odd one out, with a canny system that relies on diversity to save material. It usually works quite well but is technically a fudge, often done wrongly and painful to test. It goes hand in hand with fused plugs which are equally a mixed blessing.

Eh, ....diversity is a fundamental necessity, that is used on all distribution networks and installations throughout the world, so i'm not sure what you mean by the UK being the odd one out?? Without applying diversity, you would have cable sizes that would in most cases, be impossible to connect to standard sized electrical equipment . One things for sure it's far cry from being a technical fudge.

I'll agree with you, that to get consistently accurate max demands you need to have a good deal of experience under your belt and be well versed in how you go about it....